Does soil really matter? Please explain.

16 years ago

Help me understand the difference between the different potting soil mixes besides the price tag that I see. At my wal-mart there is a hyponex brand of soil that is the cheapest-- $1.50 I think for 40 pounds. It is next to the $7 dollar miracle grow bag that is roughly the same size. It does not seems to be as heavy though. Do the seeds really know or care if the soil is a little fluffier? I am a cheapskate and so I have bought the cheaper bags until today when they were out. Thanks for your thoughts!

Jess

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Comments (27)

girlgroupgirl
16 years ago
hyponex brand of soil that is the cheapest -

Hyponex is really crappy stuff. It is mostly comprised of ash, sand and wood. There is very little peat in it and no pearlite. So it is very dense and very heavy. To little seedlings it's like pushing up through cement! And for larger plants it provides little to no drainage or nourishment.

There is a huge difference between the quality of soils. What you are looking for is a soil with the smallest particles and if you can find it, little to no wood filler. Why no wood? The seedlings can't push up under a chunk. Some of us have found the Miracle Grow has a lot of wood chunks in it lately. This is great as a potting soil for larger plants, but for seedlings, not so much. You can get the Wal-Mart brand of soil for a few bucks less and at a great quality.

GGG
stage_rat
16 years ago
I'm a cheapskate too, but I don't want to use Hyponex again. Last year I had some "soil" that I mixed myself, but I ran out and tried Hyponex and something else cheap from Wal-mart. I noticed quite a difference in how those seedlings did compared to ones in my lighter mix. The cheap stuff really did harden into a brick, and most of the few containers I had without sprouts were in the containers with bad soil. I did have plenty of containers of sprouts using the bad soil, but those seedlings didn't grow as fast as my others (monarda vs monarda, hosta vs hosta).

If you transplant out of the bricks as soon as you can, that will help you get better growth. If you buy a big bale of peat and/or perlite and blend it for the rest of the containers, that may help too. I know I added perlite, hoping to improve drainage, but it didn't help as much as I'd hoped. I think a bale of peat is about $12.

This year I prepared my soil in the fall, mixing garden soil, sandy soil, composted horse manure, perlite, and moistened peat (moistened with a drop or two or detergent in the water) together. I don't know for sure that it will be wonderful, but that's pretty closo to--and an improvement of-- what I used last year, so I think the seedlings will be happy.
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TexasRanger, I doubt the nematodes are a serious problem for ornamental plants, especially the native types you grow, but they are for many agricultural plants and I know lcdollar is growing an edible garden, so that's why I mentioned nematodes. The folks to my south who have deep sand (roughly 280' deep) in the Thackerville area have gorgeous ornamentals because they grow the types of plants (mostly natives or at least cultivated ornamentals that were bred from natives) that grow well in sand. They also can grow some vegetables (particularly melons and southern peas) that like the sand. Their sand is not the sandy loam found in much of Oklahoma, it is deep river sand that looks almost like beach sand. I am just a few miles north of Thackerville and don't have that deep river sand. In our areas with sand, we have a light brown sandy loam that is heavy on sand and silt, and short on loam, but it isn't at all that beachy sand like Thackerville has. 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I think most people with dense, slow-draining clay add far too little sand and it does give them even worse soil than the clay they had before because often clay + sand = adobe. Well, for true adobe, I guess they'd have to add straw. I also think that sugar sand works better for edible gardeners when lots of compost is added at the same time because edible plants tend to need the nutrition from the compost and also need soil that drains well but not too well since many vegetable and fruit plants need lots of moisture available consistently in their root zones in order to produce good fruits and vegetables. The first thing I did to improve the very dense red clay around our house was buy one dumptruck load of sand our very first year here. They told us it was topsoil, but it was the worst sugar sand I've ever seen, and I didn't even care, because our clay wasn't going to grow anything we wanted to grow until we did something to fix it. We couldn't really rototill it into the clay because the clay was so dense that even a powerful rear-tine tiller just bounced around on top of the ground, so then we spread hay and straw a foot deep on top of the sand once we had hauled the sand around one wheelbarrow load at a time and raked it out smooth. Since we have strongly sloping property, we wanted to keep the sand from eroding away. Once we had been here 3 or 4 years, we rototilled the sand and compost (the remains of that foot of hay and straw) into the clay and it got a lot better, but since then, the only improvement the lawn area around the house has gotten has been compost layered on top of the ground occasionally. We still get sand occasionally (but not because we buy a a truck load of it) when it erodes during heavy rainfall from the property directly south of us which still has some sand left, although their sand is slowly becoming our sand with each heavy rainfall. I don't mind their sandy loam washing onto our land---it isn't filled with nematodes because it is on top of clay subsoil---but we got up to 4" of sand washed into our garden in a very heavy rainstorm (12.89" in one day) in April 2009 and my whole garden, including several inches of mulch, was buried under wet sand. There wasn't much I could do about it then, but in the fall and winter, I just rototilled all that sand and the mulch that was underneath it, into the garden soil. While it was frustrating that year to have all that weed seed-filled sand on top of the mulch, it didn't harm the garden too much (though the excess moisture made plant growth stall for a couple of months), but I still have a lot more weed issues in the area that got the 4" of sand so I'm still pulling out those weeds every year when they sprout. Oh, and oddly, the ranch right across the street to our east has a lot of that sugar sand, but the only place we have sugar sand is in our creek bed.....because it washes there from the ranch across the road. We have a new back garden (new as of a couple of years ago) about 100-120' west of our house that has native sandy-silty loam in about 70% of the area and I like it, but the voles like it as well, so I am having to be careful with what I plant there because the voles devour the roots of everything. I barely saved my Texas lantana from them by digging it up, putting it in a very large container and pruning back the topgrowth very hard to match the root pruning the hungry voles had done. So far, there isn't much the voles won't eat in that back garden's sandy soil, so it is frustrating to plant back there and watch everything die. They eat fruit tree roots, including native persimmons that popped up in that area on their own after we rototilled it, conflower roots, the fig tree roots, etc. Since we have 10+ acres of wooded land filled with pine voles, we'll never be rid of them, so I think the only way I'll be able to use the new back garden for anything permanent in nature will be to make root cages with 1/4" hardware cloth and plant the root balls within the wire cages. Every year the voles eventually, usually in July, start eating the roots of my annual flowers and veggies in that back garden, but usually I've gotten enough of a harvest from the veggies to feel fairly satisfied with the performance of that garden. I thought gardening in native sandy loam would be easier than amending clay endlessly, and it would be, if we didn't have a non-stop population of voles. An interesting note---in that first year when the voles began eating the roots of everything in the back garden, I frantically dug up everything I could and moved all the plants to the front garden, except for trees (fig and desert willow, which had almost no roots left so I put them in containers and they have recovered). I've never had nematodes in that front garden since it started out as clay, but there must have been nematodes on the roots of something that I dug up that year and moved to a specific raised bed in the front garden because last year one single tomato plant in that bed was covered in nematodes and I raise my own plants so those nematodes weren't brought in from the outside. I so far haven't had nematodes in the back garden as far as I know, but somehow they must have been on a plant I moved from the back to the front in the first Vole War. lcdollar, Your soil looks like brown clay. Black gumbo clay is as black as night. I love the way hugelkultur improves the land, but we have a woodland full of deadfall I can collect in winter and use. Most people here in our area clean up their woodlands and pastures and just burn the wood and brush, or they use prescribed burns out on the big ranchlands to accomplish the same thing. I just compost it or use it in limited hugelkulturs. I don't plant much in a hugelkultur that will need to be harvested for the first couple of years because we have so many snakes here near the Red RIver. I wait until it all has decomposed enough that the snakes cannot climb around freely in it. In our earliest years here, I just added big chunks of wood---burying them several inches below the soil surface in the veggie garden. They decomposed in no time at all....a year or two or three....depending on their size and improved the soil as much as anything else I've ever done. 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Julie
16 years ago
I too am a frugal person- so spending $$ on "dirt" was tough for me too- But, with the savings I earn by using $$MG over soil- any soil that is- and wintersowing seeds over buying my plants- it is so inexpensive and well worth the cost. The value is still great!
Soil- even good soil will freeze solid. And will have a tendency to stay more solid even when thawed. That is not a good environment for seedlings, or plant roots. A soil-less mix like MG will stay loose and not clump. It will hold more moisture longer and not dry as fast as peat. And once dry- it is not as hydrophobic as peat- it will absorb moisture again more readily than peat. It is a renewable man made resource as it is composted wood and plant products- and not a limited resource like straight peat is. MG potting "soil" is fortified with nutrients for plants to grow well. And you can see that difference when your seedlings grow healthy big and strong. It must be sterelized, as I have almost never had weeds sprout up in my containers.
I too have mixed my own soiless mix with compost, peat, well rotted manure, and such- but sterilizing it was too much for me! Baking dirt stinks!! But I didn't want germs-molds- and weed seeds to germinate in my WS containers- so baking it was a needed step for me in my eyes. Whew- and in my nose- and all through the house!!
I seem to remember a post about MG and that it is made in a few areas all around the country and sold in lots to major purchasers. Some plants must have higher standards than others- as in all the years I have used MG- I have had 1 bag that was sub standard with rocks and LOGS in it. I returned my partially used bag to the supplier and asked them to report this to MG and asked for my money back. That was a Home Depot store. I went elsewhere to purchase another bag that time- and having purchased from home depot again, I have not had that experience again. Something must have changed somewhere. I have never had a bad bag from Costco- I guess what I am trying to say is where you purchase your MG from may make the difference in quality of the MG product by way of their purchasing power and standards. Maybe not- it is just a guess.
Seeds really want to live and grow and reproduce. They will try to do this where ever you put them. We just try to give them the best environment to do this in so the get bigger and stronger and stay healthier longer.
There is a HUGE difference in using soil over a soiless mix when wintersowing- and the dollars it costs to provide that difference is still cheap in my eyes over growing stunted stressed seedlings or buying plants from the nurseries and stores.
I do hope all of your seeds will do well for you- and I think you will see the difference from the MG planted seedlings and plants and the soil planted containers. Seeing is believing they say...
Best of luck-

Julie
carmen_grower_2007
16 years ago
Although ProMix is soiless and has no nutritional value, it is great for starting seeds. The seedlings get the nourishment they need from the seed itself and shouldn't need to be fertilized until you are ready to actually plant them out.

Even then, I don't fertilize ---- the soil should be food enough for most everything.
gratefulgardener3300
16 years ago
I used the cheap stuff from walmart this year. Actually I have been using it for the past two years as an additive in my soil mix. I used it pretty much straight for my wsing though. This is my first year wsing (with 12 containers at the moment) and I obviously don't want it to be a failure. Is there anything i could do now to fix this problem or should I just let it go and see what happens?
monisha
16 years ago
Pleeease do not buy the cheap potting soild at WM.

I used the same stuff this year in my milk jugs and nothing has come up in the soil from WM. It is sheer charcoal and very heavy. the seeds that showed signs of germinating now have shrivelled roots. A futile exercise but a good learning.

The ones that have my regular MG potting soil have had sprouts in less than 4 days. They are doing well.

I am having to sow fresh seeds of the ones that I had with the 99 cents potting soil from WM.
jessica315
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks for all the information and opinions about hyponex. Am I doomed? SIGH! I have 55 milk jugs of it sitting on my deck, and I guess I will just have to see what happens. I will buy the better stuff from now on and sort of do a comparison. Costco, here I come....

Jessica
stage_rat
16 years ago

don't panic, don't panic!

I think everyone with cheapo soil is going to be fine, like I said, I got sprouts in most containers. Maybe 10-12 of my 150 containers didn't sprout? You WILL have seedlings! (Watch your drainage, try to keep good control over all the other factors) Someone on here totally swears by the cheapo soil, maybe she will come along. Don't scrape out the seeds and mess with the soil, no no no. Let them be, let them germinate, and then move them into nicer soil sooner than later, if you can.

Just to show you that nice sprouts can happen in the bad soil, here is a Malva (thumbnail):

{{gwi:362169}}

To show what I said earlier about the better soil having bigger sprouts, I have these thumbnail photos. They were taken the same day, but it is possible that one container had better sun--I didn't keep all Monardas (or whatever) together

{{gwi:362170}}

{{gwi:362171}}

Julie, the weed sprouts I get definitely do get on my nerves, but there's no way I would sterilize my wintersowing mix--since I already stink up my house doing that to my indoor seed-starting mix! Baking soil/mix really does reek. I've used boiling water, too, although that tends to leave dry pockets, and also gets it too wet. I'm willing to put up with the weeds in order to not sterilize, and I'm definitely not worried about dampoff outside, since the conditions are so unfreindly for it.
jessica315
Original Author
16 years ago
Stage Rat--

Thanks for your pictures and encouragement. I will hang in there.

Jessica
tiffy_z5_6_can
16 years ago
I've been winter sowing since the dark wintry days of the winter of 2001/2002. I will scrounge on containers, labels, plastics to cover containers, equipment to cut containers and make holes in such, tables to sit my containers on outside (made out of pallets), and seeds (I acquire 95% through trades).

But I will NEVER go cheap on soil! It is the only expense at which I don't even think about the price and hand out the VISA! :O) My preferred brand is Pro Mix.
silverkelt
16 years ago
Last year I got Miracle Grow Potting soil... it worked fine, but I didnt buy all that much and ran out and used cheap top soil I got at the local hardware store, I still got germination but I dont recommend the stuff... IT really does get quite hard!

Anyways... rambling on... I got a Bale of ProMix this year... WHAT A difference! This is WAY better than MG as well! I would recommend this stuff to anyone!

Silverkelt
gratefulgardener3300
16 years ago
So I have a ton of the cheap stuff and still plan on wsing. What can I add to it so that it might be a more suitable home for some happy seedlings? I tend to be a frugal gardener so buying pro mix while I have this stuff sitting around just wouldn't feel right to me. On hand I have peat moss, vermiculite, blood meal, sand, mushroom compost (although this gets hard as a rock too), compost and I could always dig up some of my garden soil. Can I make a good mix?
digdirt2
16 years ago
On hand I have peat moss, vermiculite, blood meal, sand, mushroom compost (although this gets hard as a rock too), compost and I could always dig up some of my garden soil. Can I make a good mix?

Sure, for seed starting just mix 1/3 peat. 1/3 compost, and 1/3 vermiculite or perlite. That is what most soil-less seed starting mixes are made of. You can even mix in some of the cheap stuff you have without doing much damage. ;)

For growing on you may need to later add some of the blood meal - or better yet a bit of time release fertilizer.

The crucial difference between many of the mixes on the market is the use of actual "dirt" (soil and minerals) vs. not adding them. Garden soil and potting soil mixes such as Hyponex are not good for containers except as a cheap amendment that allows you to stretch out the good stuff somewhat. It compacts in containers, doesn't drain well, and suffocate roots. Plus it is much more prone to bacterial and fungal diseases.

Soil-less potting mixes such as that made by MG, Metro Mix, Scotts, ProMix, Expert Gardener (Walmart's brand), etc. contain no soil, no dirt, no minerals so it doesn't have the problems associated with soil mixes. Most brands also have some organic compost added in various forms and most now have added time-released fertilizers (not really needed for germinating seeds but needed for growing-on) and many have moisture control agents added too. So they do not compact, are sterile, allow better air circulation for the roots, and drain better. Perfect for containers.

Depending on how much you need, the frugal gardener can easily buy a bag of peat, a bag of vermiculite or perlite, a bag of compost, and a small container of time-release fertilizer and using the 1/3rd ratios make a ton of their own great mix for 1/2 the cost of buying the better pre-made stuff and avoid all the problems associated with the cheapo potting soils.

Good gardening! ;)

Dave

PS: Keep in mind that with the exception of ProMix and Metro Mix, all the commonly available soil-less mixes sold in the stores are made by the same company (Scotts). This includes Walmart's Expert Gardener breand, formerly called Sam's, so if one works, they all work. ;)
Vanessa 8a
16 years ago
gratefulgardener, that's such a great question. I have sooooo much of they wm hypo"junk". I trust everyone here so can it be amended to make something of it or should I just throw it away??
clumsygrdner
16 years ago
I didn't find Pro-Mix expensive at all and 3 bales cost me only 30 bucks. They were the smaller bales but it was enough to last me this whole winter and I've done about 200 containers so far!
kqcrna
16 years ago
Seeds have all the nutrition they need to get through cotyledon stage. When they start getting true leaves it's time to fertilize.

Since these containers sit outside all winter in rain, snow, ice, and constant moisture, I think most fertilizer added at planting time will probably leach out before it does any good. I don't add fertilizer until I see true leaves.

Karen
shelly_grower
16 years ago
I also used the cheap potting mix from Wal-Mart. Most of the soil is hard as a rock right now. With all of the cold weather and rain the seeds are probably packed in the middle somewhere. Is there anything I can add to the containers that I have planted right now? I know that one post said to sit still and wait.
stage_rat
16 years ago
I want to add that when I moisten my peat, I put a drop or two of dishwashing liquid in a couple gallons of water. This wets the peat far more easily, and then acts as a wetting agent later on--so if the container dries out some, it will remoisten easily.
jessica315
Original Author
16 years ago
Sort of a dumb newbie question, but what is a bale? I assume it is larger than a regular bag of mix you buy at walmart. Clumsy said that 3 bales cost $30 and sowed 200 containers, so I am wondering about how big is a bale and where do I buy this?

Jessica
stage_rat
16 years ago
I get bales of peat at HDepot, Menard's or Lowe's. They don't always have it, so call to check first. It's a plastic-bagged block of compressed peat, in either 2.2 or 3.8 cubic feet. I'm not sure how much is in a bale of Promix. There are photos of these bales on the internet, but they don't give an idea of scale. They're the size of a big fat suitcase.

For Promix, call around to your local nurseries, or try the stores named above. A tip for "phone quests:" if they say they don't have it, ask if they have anything similar, and if they know who does sell it.
threeorangeboys
16 years ago
I used something called Jiffy Mix. Does anyone have opinions on that? My hubby picked it up for me at Home Depot.
ellenr22 - NJ - Zone 6b/7a
16 years ago
I got really good soil by going to the nursery I patronize and asking the owner if he would sell me some of the soil that he uses. He sold me a really big bag for $2.00 which was so low-priced I was tempted to give him more $!

It really does make a difference what kind of soil you use. I've used cheap soil that turns into a brick, and nothing grows.
I also like Jiffy.

ellen
lassiedeb
16 years ago
Hi Jessica315, lassiedeb here in Salt Lake City. Sad to report we cannot buy Promix out here in Utah. The only place the Promix website gave as a distributor was J&J Gardens in Layton. I called them last year and they laughed me out of town. I guess they buy HUGE quantities in commercial bales and they don't re-sell to the public. I'm so glad you've found wintersowing! It's so great to know there are 4 or 5 of us with milk jugs and two liters out under all this Utah snow. Trudi is like the Mother Theresa of gardening! She gives and gives and gives information, seeds, advice. This whole forum is truly amazing for their generosity and kind sharing of knowledge. As far as your "less than premium soil", since you've already purchased it I would suggest just mixing it(maybe 2 MG to 1 Hypo)or even one I've found at Sutherland's.....I think it's Schultz. I've had good success with it. What I would really do with your Hypo is use it as a couple of layers in a lasagna garden this spring. You know the saying "size matters"? Well "Soil Matters"! You'll be glad you went with the better stuff. Happy sowing :-) Deb
girlgroupgirl
16 years ago
I will say that once I had to use Hyponex soil for a seeding class because that is what they bought me. Luckily, they had some bags of cactus soil mix as left overs from another class. Mixing the two together worked quite well.

I am looking to find some mixes (or make my own) in the future that do not rely on a peat moss base. Does anyone have ideas for that? Peat is not the renewable resource that everything thinks it is. Unless you are going to live like another million years, lol. So I'd like to try and wean myself from peat.

GGG
wendy2shoes
16 years ago
I bought a bale of stuff calle BMI, Berger's professional planting mix for a good price last fall because the bag was torn. I'm worried that it may be too 'fluffy'. Ingredients are sphagnum (sp?) peat moss, perlite and vermiculite. No soil, which I'm worried about because it does retain moisture. Have I shot myself in the foot with this mix?
dirtdiver
16 years ago
As far as non-peat mixes, I don't know of any specifically, but I'm guessing they're out there if you want to mail-order. I sometimes incorporate coconut coir into my mixes as a replacement for peat. Lots of places sell it as "bricks" that expand with water, which keeps the shipping charges reasonable. I think it works ok if you cut it with generous amounts of vermiculite and perlite. Looks like the coir bricks come out to about $8 per cubic foot, from what I can tell.

I know some people have raised concern that the coir can have a bit of salt in it. I think they try to control for that, but it's good to know.
paphiocon
16 years ago
When I can't get a bale of ProMix locally, I buy those coir bricks sold as bedding for reptiles in PetsMart and Petco. A mix of 1/3 coir, 1/3 perlite, and 1/3 vermiculite has worked well for me as a seed starting mix.

A few weeks ago I bought MG potting mix at Lowes and it was awful -- way too heavy and dense. I added some coir mix to a bucket full make it lighter, but I'm thinking that the MG may wind up being a component for compost or lasagna beds.

Happy sowing to you!
Constance in NJ

Does soil really matter? Please explain.

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