They are all in it for the money, otherwise they would all still have day jobs. I don't think any of them neccessarily breed for hardniness first, it's most generally beauty first, being as that is what sells. If it was all about hardiness, I would presume species or species hybrids would be the number one sellers. Multiflora wouldn't just be a rootstock anymore, but there would be just oodles and oodles of new mf hybrids, from the mf ramblers, to the smaller little polyanthas. Of course there are always the ko's, lol! and you forgot weeks and star roses are a couple along with j&p. brand name means nothing to me. I am sure kordes has their share of "florists" roses. I think the rose industry in this country is more skewed to their main demographic, which is probably women for the most part, they probably purchase 100 times more roses overall than men do. I think that is apparent in the naming of them. Angel face might have been called bar maid. fragrant cloud might have been called redneck, who knows.

I would have bought "Bar Maid" in a NY second!

Jim - Again, you obsession on Kordes borders on stalking! Of course they are in it for the money! Do you think that they would still be around 100 years later if they were not? Can you imagine their kids wanting to go into the business knowing they'd be poor all their lives? Hardly.
Not that I'm a fan of Jackson & Perkins, but you can buy them own root, and yes, regardless of what some people think out here ownroots will do fine in zone 5 if grown correctly.

"Now in America Jackson & Perkins as the only major rose company. With hired breeders"
Weeks has employed Tom Carruth for several decades and Bailey Nurseries has Ping Lim hybridizing for them.

The following is just the tip of the iceberg...mames I remember quickly.
Once upons a time, there were cold hardy rose breeding programs not just in Canada (that was govt sponsered), but in New Hampshire, Wyoming and Nebraska. Buck's efforts followed these and I think you know that Iowa State bulldozed his test beds upon his retirement.
Some other names were Percy Wright, Frank Skinner, Robert Simonet.
And before them was Niels Hansen, the U.S. govt's first plant explorer who was looking for commercial plants but who did a lot with roses, on the side so to speak.

Well, rose growing is a business. Roses are a crop, like corn or soybeans or strawberries. Rose hybridizers have to feed the kids and pay the mortgage like everyone else.

Pickering is a grower, not a hybridizer--they don't have the overhead of supporting a new-variety development system, which is not cheap. Some of the $ paid for a J&P rose paid for Zary's salary and probably his family's healthcare and the greenhouses where the seedlings were grown and the water that kept them alive.

Yet we've gotten some beautiful roses out of for-profit businesses. What about the hybridizers of the 19th century: Paul, Cant, Pernet. They were in it for the $ too--the kids got hungry and outgrew their shoes back then just as they do today.

The current top guy at Kordes is NOT a hybridizer.
His father and grandpa were, but he is not.

The current top guy at Weeks Roses is Tom Carruth, one of
the most innovative hybridizers around.

In Denmark, the Poulsen family is still hybridizing.
So is the Guillot family, in France.

In England, there are still hybridizers in the Harkness family.
There are, no doubt, others.

Hybridizers gotta eat, and pay the rent.
In the end, rose companies must make a profit, or go out of business.

Jeri

If you've got a desire to selflessly serve others probably rose hybridization isn't going to be your chosen profession ; )

But i have been wondering-seems i've heard that fungicides and other garden chemicals that are readily available in the US can't be had so easily in Canada and Europe. So roses that need to be sprayed would not be such good sellers. And in a free market economy the response would be to provide roses that would grow well without chemical intervention (spraying).

So-back to the original question-can you trust European breeders to help you choose healthier roses?

Not necessarily, Maui.
There are multiple strains of most fungal diseases, so a rose which is immune to a disease common in, say, Germany,
may not be immune to the diseases I see.
Also, German roses are bred to succeed in German conditions.
That might work well, where the overall climate is similar to that of Germany, but still fail in SoCal --
or Hawaii.

FWIW, we have tried -- TRIED -- to grow a few Kordes roses here.
They rusted like mad, and mildewed, and are No Longer With Us.
Tho the idea was pushed for many years, few roses succeed in all parts of the U.S.
That's even more true globally.

Jeri

Well that makes terrific sense Jeri. How could i forget the favorite GardenWeb caveat-no-mantra-YMMV.

Think globally, Grow locally ; )

Well if you don't want to pay the high dollars for roses, grow your own. Hydridizing is easy and before you know it you'll have your own roses that are just as nice and on their own roots as well. I cannot afford to be paying $30. - $40.00 for a rose bush anymore.

The big money, such as it is, in rose breeding isn't breeding roses for gardens, it's in breeding florist roses. In comparison, breeding roses for gardens is a hobbyist sideline.

There would be far more true rose shrubs available now if it were otherwise. I think there also would be more pillars and climbers, especially hardy thornless ones, and also most likely more multiflora hybrids, as someone else mentioned upthread.

I am turning into a huge fan of Carruths. We now have three of his ARS winners, About Face, Memorial Day, and I recently bought Hot Cocoa. He has others I would really like to get down the line too.
It is true alot of the chemicals and pesticides you get down in the States have been banned from shelves up here in Canada. When you folks talk about this and that solution we have to sometimes find the best solution among the Safer's Products. They are not nearly effective enough for some pest problems but then we also don't have some pests you folks down there have either. It's a trade off.
I don't have time to cross reference every herbicide and pesticide sold with its ingredients or wether it makes the banned list but here is a list from the David Suzuki foundation of what is currently in the process of either being banned up here or is already banned.
All this has recently come to my attention more because I have been battling flower thrips. Not chili thrips thank goodness but pesky all the same. The lady at the nursery said all I can do is pick off and properly dispose of affectd buds and spray with insecticical soap on a regular basis as hopefully a preventive.

Here is a link that might be useful: banned chemicals in Canada

Kordes makes it's money by breeding roses for the florist trade not for the garden and the garden roses are mainly bred for the northern part of Germany. Oh, and by the way Jeri, the current top guy is a hybridizer and has come up with some very unique solutions and ideas for breeding disease resistant roses. His new line of floribundas certified by the ADR is excellent.

The chief hybridizer at Kordes is Thomas Proll. He is not a member of the Kordes family and he does not run the company. Thomas was one of the speakers at the ARS convention in St. Louis last September. He is a very talented guy, but he doesn't run Kordes.

As to the type of roses Kordes produces - yes, they produce a number of garden roses bred to be healthy and hardy. However, they also produce a large number of florist roses. And some of those florist hybrid teas are now finding their way into the market as Freelander roses from Kordes. Palatine, among others, is selling some of them. They also produce a large number of miniatures to be sold as pot roses in grocery stores and the like. These are their Kordana roses.

Ultimately they have to be profitable, just like every other company. Otherwise they couldn't pay the bills and they wouldn't exist.

I'm so obsessed I'd pay up to $50.00 for a rose if I thought it was worth it...

I'd pay that to take the family to the movies for one night, why not to have a rose that will give me pleasure for years...

I don't care who gets the profits, I'm just thankful someone out there wants to feed my obsession...

Well OK I made a few assumptions that were, ah wrong.

And mainly I was thinking of Wilhelm the first. From what I've read he had rose breeding in his blood. And some rose people in the world have said about him that he is one of the greatest. So that is why I can't see him putting profit above introducing an innovative rose. Doing so does not regulate that person to poverty! A good rose will on its' own merit bring sufficient rewards.

And as far as J&P is concerned, from my biased point of view, they behave just like any other corporation hustling their goods. Further in a country now run by corporations why should a statement such as mine about the "bottom lin" get responders upset?

And oh and by the way CRL also lists roses by the companies name for it like JAC for Jackson & Perkins, KOR for Kordes, etc. There are 5 for Kordes, 3 for Meilland and 2 pages for Jackson & Perkins, Harkness, Weeks, Austin and Poulsen. Those are all I checked. This tells us that KOR has been at it for a long time and partly if their roses are still listed they must be doing something right.

Aren't the Clements at Heirloom Roses hybridizers? I thought all their current sale roses were their own...

And as far as J&P is concerned, from my biased point of view, they behave just like any other corporation hustling their goods.

*** They ARE a corporation, trying to sell their goods.

No one takes a vow of poverty to breed roses, nor should they.
That's why we don't cheat on copyrights.
If they can't make money, they'll go away. That's ALWAYS been true.
It was true of the great hybridizers of the past, and remains true, and I've got no beef with that.
Why SHOULDN'T they reap the reward of their labor?
And why SHOULDN'T they choose to release roses they believe will sell well?

Jeri

You should check out the price of perennials in nurseries ... 1/3 size of #1 roses and twice the price - now there is where the money is at ... $15 - $100 for a peony and a breeze to propagate - roses are not, even own root.

Yes, the Clements do hybridize many of their roses. However, they also carry some from other firms. They have a number of Harkness roses, for instance.

Let's not forget all the great miniature rose hybridizers in the U.S. Ralph Moore, Frank Benardella, Robbie Tucker, Dennis Bridges, the Savilles, the Taylors, Dee Bennett, Michael Williams, and on and on.

Sorry, but I think you are all trying to paint American growers and hybrizers with the same brush. I would never throw J&P in with Roses Unlimited, because they are not the same. J&P is a big, national, conglomerate company, that has recently become bigger through acquisition. Many of the migrant workers in their fields know nothing about roses, and don't care about them. They are hired to do a job, and that's what they do for their pay - a job. RU, on the other hand is much smaller, but the quality of their offerings is such that they are the only roses I will buy or grow. Now, of course, there are many roses they do not carry, but then if you are an OGR fan like I am, you don't care. Their S&H is the best in the industry, as far as I am concerned, and customer service is above reproach. So, I guess what I am saying is, if you want to play with the big guys, you have to play by their rules, and they aren't always pleasant. Your choice, true, but let's not castigate everyone for the same reasons you castigate the biggies. Sometimes the smaller fish are tastier, and more palatable.

Hear! Hear!
We can afford to lose J&P.
We can't afford to lose Vintage, RU, ARE, Rogue Valley, Ashdown, Euro-Desert, et al.

Jeri