When I remove roses, dead or alive, I try to dig out the root ball as intact as possible and the soil stuck to it. I haven't fuzzed much more than that. Then I dig the hole as large as I need it and fill in new soil-mix when I plant. Luckily I have never had replant disease on any of my new roses. I have had a couple of very slow starters but they where planted in spots where no rose ever had grown, so go figure?

When it comes to mycorrhizal fungi I have used what's easily available online , most often a big bag of the brand "Rootgrow". I have come to the conclution it works, and it's worth the effort.

I have wondered if there are circumstances when it's not needed, like when you have really good compost, or the soil has been well cared for and cultivated for years. At least roses and other plants in pots, my lawn soil and new beds with bought soil undoubtly benefit from it.

I think it has to do with "waking" up the soil, and I suppose there's several factors to making it more fertile. Microlife is a factor I pay attention to, at least since I try to grow organic.

Using fungi when planting made a HUGE difference at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. The soil test showed a complete lack of fungi, and plants were dying at an alarming rate. Things are much better, now.
Jill

hi elemire,
I have been using Rootgrow for 5 or 6 years and really recommend it for shrubs, fruit bushes and trees. I have replanted roses for a customer but only after leaving the beds fallow for a couple of years. Peter Beales recommends using an 18inch deep and wide cardboard box, filled with clean loam (I use John Innes 3) and myccorhizae granules.Make sure you use a brand which has at least 2 types, ectodermic and endodermic as the fungi do different jobs. The idea being that the box will provide some protection from dodgy nematodes and will rot down over the following year or so. The jury is still out regarding this method but I think the small risk of rootball problems in a box, is completely overshadowed by the horrible replant syndrome so I would most definately keep some boundary between a new rose and the old soil. The myccorhizae will cause the root-system to grow fast, tight and matted with a massive surface area in a small space. Worth a punt but do take all precautions. Good Luck, Suzy

I recall a study that found that most of the garden roses they tested were naturally mycorrhizal. This was in the USA. However, the fungi that cooperate with roses may not be in all soils, especially not in the soilless potting mixtures and bagged "topsoil" (not soil but organic waste products) common in the USA. I suspect that field-grown roses may well bring the fungi along on their roots, whereas roses grown from cuttings in pots would not.

Elemire, rose replant disorder is rare or unknown in the USA, so we can't help you with that.

That is what I find really strange, the absence of rose replant disorder in US, although considering climates and long history of rose imports/exports, one would think that the cause of it should have arrived to the other continent at some point.

In any case I suppose it won't hurt to add the funky fungi when replanting, although I am tempted to skip on the boxes and digging huge hole thing. The problem is that I have 3 modern roses planted rather close to each other, which I would like to replant to a cutting corner of my garden, and plant about 2 shrub OGRs in that place. The extra problem with that plan is that in the middle of those 3 moderns I have lavatera and self seeded malva, which are quite pretty, so the plan generally was to remove the modern roses, leave lavatera and malva and plant two shrubs from both sides of lavatera. I wonder if I could maybe plant shrubs now like in 1-2 feet distance from the moderns and dig out moderns later when shrubs are settled (so maybe they would not care anymore about leftover roots). Also I am not sure what lavateras/malvs would add to this business, since they are quite bigger than the roses in that spot. So yeah, I need some thinking to do.

oh Elemire, malvas are my worst weed on the allotment - horrible fangy roots which stretch to Australia - have yours out NOW. Funnily enough, Lavatera was my very first plant. Since it grows like a rocket, I was hugely encouraged, taking the massive growth as proof of my obvious 'green fingers'. My next plant was a Japanese anemone which I bought because I liked the name! So hey, beginner's luck really kicked in for me and by the time I planted a gardenia (I know - tragic), I was in the grip of an obsession. I have also remained loyal to the malvaceae famile (altheas, sphaeralcea, sidalcea, abutilons etc.)but, unless your lavatera is something more dainty like 'Barnsley', it will get whopping. They are shortlived too and will certainly lose great chunks of limb or split in half while still remaining a swine to dig out. So yep, thinking cap on, my dear. No, don't be tempted to miss out on boxes - you don't need a massive hole - 45cm deep and wide will do it. Or, lose the lavatera and mallow and put the new roses in their place. If you really are keen on a lavatera, cuttings are real easy and they grow enormous in one season so it would be as well to start again. Ha, the annual 'will I, won't I, can I afford to? syndrome' starts again also.

I kind of like both lavateras and malvas, I was growing different kinds of them over the time. Selfseeding is not that big an issue over here, nowhere near as bad as alchemillas. :D

Also in clay they do not seem to develop that huge root system; most plants actually have way more compact root systems in heavy clay. In that particular spot I got some yellow/peach lavatera (can't recall which one that was again, my Latin is a bit rusty at 6 in the morning), its some more warm climate kind that acts as perennial, so easier to manage; and some generic pink/white one, which I just prune heavily and it does not seem to mind it that much. But overall I like malvas better, more tidy plants, no weird limbs and they get big enough.

hehe 50x50 sounds more or less manageable, although I wince anytime I think about digging any hole in this blinkig clay. Ah, sandy loam, glorious composty sandy loam, why you are in my old garden and not over here! :D

well, i have sandy sand! easy to work, ho ho but rubbish overall. water disappears immediately and nutrients are just memories. I also have a peachy mallow i grew from a cutting last year - i think it might be a sphaeralcea but not munroana or fendlerii and not one of the hybrids like 'Park Allee' - bit mean with flowers though. I have been looking at another Lavatera 'Baby Barnsley' - stays at around 1m.
Wierdly, I have ben growing alchemilla in a gravel garden for 3 or 4 years with NO self-seeding. Plants, hey - a great mystery of life.

Mine probably is not sphaeralcea - it is about to bloom, so I will be able to take pics, since I have no idea where its label went to... I need to sort out crap in shed, badly. x) Its quite nice one actually, reminds alcea a bit from first glance.

It is huge difference between some plants grown in heavy clay and sand - I always get heart attack when I buy fruit shrubs/trees here, where the nursery grows them in sea clay - they look like they come without roots! I replanted two lavateras this spring and their roots were really small, no problem at all, when I remember them roots from my old garden being 3 times that size, so I can imagine that in sand they can go as deep as down under.

With alchemillas, I think they like some particular circumstance to self seed - that particular being non-amended clay. When we moved in 3 years back, I had maybe 10 shrubs, now I have probably around 500... I use them to plant around whole property, as a bottom cover near the hedge, but I have to remove the flowers before they seed out, otherwise I will be completely overrun!

I was given a sphaeralcea cutting with small single pale pink flowers - it grew 2.5 metres in one season and after another year, did the mallow thing of sprawling great woody branches everywhere, several of which inevitably break off. I never found out the name but it was a very beautiful plant which, if I found it again, would be better in a big pot. I also grow althea cannabina - i love this too. a huge 3m, airy see-through plant with lots of small pink mallow flowers with deeper pink centres, hundreds at a time in every leaf axil. Ever grown it? will send seeds if you like as I have been trying to raise the profile of this plant instead of verbena bonariensis everywhere. Another favourite of mine which puzzles me why it is not seen everywhere is abutilon X suntense - completely fabulous purple mallow blooms with typical downy leaves - it looks terrific as a wall shrub.

I can't recall having althea cannabina by name and quick google did not give reliable image, but probably it was not winter hardy in my old garden. Seeds would be nice, although I am not that good in growing stuff from seeds. abutilon X suntense I was considering, but did not grow myself, since I somewhat lack space for it and it probably won't be good as a shade plant. For me new this year is sidalcea oregana, nice little purplish flowers (not really red as many sellers claim), but it seems to be not very picky and rather compact plant so far, although it is planted in non amended clay and far too much shade.

(I am sorry for offtopicing this for whoever reads it later, but them plants are pretty ;))

yeah, me too, and they do look good with roses. You can't fail with althea cannabina - nice big easy mallow seeds, grows quick but can take 2 seasons to flower - the 2nd season is when it reaches full stature. reminds me of crambe cordifolia, size and shape wise except the foliage is very fine palmate (cannabis like) leaves. maybe do swaps with your sidalcea. Do you save seeds? one of my absolute fave things to do and then, plants for free. rambling again, i know but plant talk is addictive.

Back to the fungi subject. Fungi added to the soil will work ONLY in gardens where no fungicide is sprayed. Fungicides are non-selective and do not leave the "good fungi" alone. If you spray fungicide, then you are just killing off your investment. Gotta make a choice here -- add fungi or spray fungicide.

Too many people waste their funds on those fungi and then spray them dead with systemic fungicide sprays, because you surely won't see that warning on any site where they are trying to sell fungi.

Kathy

The odd thing is that on the back of my Rootgrow package it says: "...can be used in conjunction with slow release fertilisers and most commercially available fungicides. Heavey digging near the root zone can damage the mychorrhizal fungal network." Not that I ever use fungicides, but would be nice to clear up the issue.

taoseeker, i have been using mycchorizae since it first became commercially available and I do also use some basic fungicides. The fungicides are sprayed on the foliage and have no effect on the rootzone - although a caveat might be if one was to use systemic fungicides (are there any?) I gaily use bordeaux and copper sulphate to prevent mildew, peach leaf curl and various blights and will still stand by my belief that myccorhizae has been a revelation. There is a lot of emotional whitewash in the organic/nonorganic arguments - we have to think for ourselves, test any products, take a lot of advice with a pinch of salt as there is usually some sort of guiding agenda getting in the way of evidence. You should base your conclusions on what you, yourself have observed in your own garden but without making the attempt at a trial, any vague belief systems or feelings are fairly worthless. Do try it but do a control experiment for comparison.

My guess: "Most commercially available fungicides" excludes the ones that work by systemic action. Just makes sense. Probably a topical fungicide, sulpher, copper, mancozeb, or such, would not reach into the soil enough to get to the roots. But if the plant transpiration system itself is the mode of moving the chemical, then it will also get whatever is attached to the root. And since these fungi work by attaching themselves to the roots -- wham. The systemic fungicides are Funginex, Compass, Banner Maxx and the like.

campanula, I so far do not know if my sidalcea will set seeds, it blooms for first year and just started, so we will see in a couple of weeks.

About the fungi, it makes sense that if you use fungicide, it should affect beneficial ones as well to the certain extend. Then again I suppose it depends if you just spray with some basic one once in a season or if you soak plant in the fungicide (which some people do, ignoring all labels).

I suppose, using it might be beneficial also because some nurseries wash their plants for sanitary reasons, so bareroots can arrive pretty much in sterile condition, which might be not preferred state by the rose.

The other point that crossed my mind is that in the UK, very few of the fungicides that we commonly use in the states are legal. Therefore, I guess it makes sense for a package distributed in the UK to say that the mycorrhizal fungi product is safe with "most commercially available fungicides," because there are not that many, and really, all of them that are sold in the UK are topical, not systemic.

I doubt that statement would appear on the same product in the U.S. Does anyone know?

I just bought another pound of Rooter's Mycorrhizae. It doesn't say anything about anything. Just how much to put in the hole.

Sherry