Lux -- I'm probably not much help to you. Our "native soil" is sterile decomposed ancient seabed -- the topsoil long ago washed down to the Oxnard Plain. You really can't plant anything in it.

And to be frank, we just use whatever decent potting soil is available at the time. ANYTHING is better than what we have.

Jeri

Haven't been on ARF for four or five years, but dropped in only to find this interesting question. I'll post to keep the question at the top of the page for additional answers. The wikihow answer (http://www.wikihow.com/Prepare-Soil-for-Roses) is simple and complete.

Somewhere in the back of my mind are memories that 'Marechal Niel' can be difficult and some plants being sold are not reliable. Anyone else recall that? Excellent post by many with varied 'Marechal Niel' experiences:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0512574618189.html

MN is veeerry slow to build here. I wish I had it on Fort.

One thing I do now a days is to grow my roses into five gallon plants before I put them out. It's hard for a young rose to get a good start in heavey wet clay. If you feel like driving up to Sebastopol I think Grab and Gro is trustworthy. I buy compost from them that I like. I know Gregg trusts them for potting soil.

MN wants some heat.

Grown inland from here, it's wonderful. Here at the coast, the only yellow Tea-Noisette which performs is Reve d'Or -- which is WONDERFUL.

Jeri

Hi Lux: I'm in Chicagoland, heavy clay - dolomitic/limestone clay (with yellow chunks of limestones). I'm not sure if you have the same heavy clay as mine. Kim Rupert (Roseseek) has shale clay, which stuff doesn't decompose when buried like my limestone clay (lime is corrosive and used to decompose corpses in the old days).

Shale clay is where ancient fossils imprints are found, so with shale clay it's best to put organics on top, rather than under. Stuff decomposes faster on top in a hot and dry climate. I found the below from University Extensions:

1) alfalfa meal and chlorosis (yellowing of leaves), alfalfa meal glues up with clay, and blocks out oxygen to plants. I didn't realize that until I saw pics. posted by University of Mass. on marigolds grown with alfalfa pellets.

2) Bone meal and rock phosphorus is useless at pH above 7, according to U. of Colorado. I tried that, didn't work, it's OK with bulbs but it burns plants at pH above 7.

3) University of Idaho recommended LARGE PARTICLE amendments for heavy clay. They are right, I tried small particles like peat moss and alfalfa meal .... glue-up and made cement with my heavy clay. Now I break up my clay with pine-bark mulch (pH 4.5), coarse sand, and sulfur (also has gypsum).

My sister east of San Francisco (Discovery Bay) uses gypsum to break up her clay. Horse manure works only when it's layered on top, rather than mix in. With heavy clay, layering organics on top works best, so one doesn't make potteries in hot sun.

Clay can also be acidic, like my last house only 1/2 hour away ... versus my present clay at pH 7.7. It's good to test your soil pH to see what type of clay you have: neutral, acidic, or alkaline. See the below procedure I wrote for English Roses Forum to test your soil pH, using red cabbage:

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 14:36

By "yellow foliage," do you mean than the younger foliage is pale with greener veins? If so, this is iron deficiency caused by a higher pH than the variety wants.

Lux

Are you asking for a ready made mix to pick up or something to mix with your existing soil?

I would love to know what the local Island Seed and Feed has in their mixes, one is Dan Bifano's rose food and the other is a mix that they just sent a big load up to Hearst Castle. But from what I heard is they mix a few things in their special soil.

Hi Lux: Alfafa-induced chlorosis is yellowing of the entire plant, versus green veins on a yellow leaf, which is iron deficiency.

In my limestone clay (high in calcium), manganese deficiency is the problem, rather than iron deficiency. For my Chicagoland, University of Illinois had a detailed report on pine trees chlorosis in my area that was treated successfully by chelated manganese, rather than iron.

I should had listened to them ... instead I tested iron sulfate on my white pines, azaleas, and rhododendrons. BAD RESULTS! Worsening chlorosis, leaf-burnt ... then I realize that for my limestone clay, it's manganese rather than iron deficiency. Manganese is ragged-edged green veins, and diffused yellowing. U. of Illinois is correct.

Therefore it's always good to look up U. of Extensions report for your particular area, Lux. Everyone soil and climate is different, so my heavy clay may be totally different from yours. I was checking on iron deficiency and found this excerpt from the below link:

"On soils of high pH, application of iron compounds as a fertiliser to the soil is likely to give a poor response, as the added iron will be precipitated and become unavailable to plants. Treatment of an iron deficient crop is best achieved by a foliar spray of chelated iron or 1-2% ammonium ferric sulfate solution. Burying small pieces of scrap iron, such as nails and steel food cans, in the mound at planting, can also be effective in reducing iron deficiency... If iron deficiency occurs on an acid soil, it may be a secondary effect of another nutritional disorder, such as manganese toxicity or calcium deficiency. In this case, liming may alleviate the iron deficiency by eliminating the underlying problem."

Here is a link that might be useful: Link with pictures of iron deficiency

For CA clay, I remember an old poster Berndoodle who posted absolutely healthy roses in her CA. She stated that with a chemist/friend recommendation and a soil test, she only added calcium via gypsum for her clay.

My sister east of San Francisco (Discovery Bay) got gypsum cheap, she said it breaks up her heavy clay well. Per Rosefolly's recommendation, I read the book by Field Roebuck on roses ... he had good tips on fixing hard clay in his Texas garden. Few years ago I posted a thread on Field Roebuck's tips. See below:

10. High potassium fertilizer encourages rust. This point reinforces #2 point that Mr. Roebuck made that calcium is very important in soil. High potassium and high nitrogen both drive down calcium. Thus calcium deficiency is more likely the contributing factor for rust.

I check a government website on the role of calcium in rust-prevention, here's an excerpt from the abstract: "Results indicated that plants growing in more stressful low-calcium soils experienced higher rates of rust infection, suggesting that soil calcium may modulate host susceptibility. See the link below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Role of calcium in rust prevention

I include the link to University of Mass. experiment that showed the entire plant of Marigold being yellowish from alfalfa pellets. In that experiment, the largest flower is achieved through chemical fertilizer 20-2-20. Nitrogen leaches through pots, and potassium is needed for root growth and big flower. See the link below:

Lux, per your question of what helps with root growth? In another hydroponic experiment with fertilizers .. the biggest root growth is achieved through high potassium and calcium added via calcium nitrate.

EarthCo. that tested my soil stated that from alkaline to neutral clay has plenty of nitrogen ... clay retains nutrients well. However, my heavy clay is tested deficient in potassium, phosphorus, and barely adequate in calcium. But we get rain here that unlocks the calcium from my limestone soil. I double-checked with the chemist in the soil forum, and he confirmed that gypsum is released with rain in my limestone clay ... I'm also next to a gypsum manufacturing plant.

Here is a link that might be useful: U. of Mass experiment with alfalfa pellets

Why were the alfalfa-fed marigolds in Strawberry's link chlorotic (pale)? It's odd that the writers didn't try to explain it. Possibly they plants were starved of nitrogen because alfalfa contains only slow-release N and the plants were grown for only two months. Fish fertilizers contain some fast N.

They did comment that the alfalfa plants grew taller than the fish plants despite being deficient in chlorophyll. I wonder if this could could represent the effect of the growth-stimulating compound that alfalfa contains.

I think the difference is Alfalfa in the hole or as a top dressing. My experience is to avoid putting it in a planting hole. I've never seen chorosis from a top dressing in moderation.

Tessie (Melissa) in CA with sandy/loamy soil once posted on yellowing of her roses due to alfalfa. Google that in Roses Forum and you'll see "Rethinking alfalfa in CA ..."

Since Lux has heavy clay, I'm sharing with her my experience with alfalfa in heavy clay:

1) Mendocino is right, alfalfa is a disaster in the hole. I don't have luck top dressing either. Plants' roots don't breathe well in my compact & sticky clay, and it doesn't help that alfalfa meal gunks up.

Stuff decomposes very slow in my wet and rainy climate. But alfalfa is great in Ingrid's loose decomposed granite soil, and in her CA hot & dry climate which decomposes things put on top fast.

2) For my heavy clay, I don't fertilize my 26 trees, yet they are taller than 2-story building. I checked with links on nutrient deficiencies, all stated that unless the pH is very acidic, or if the soil is very sandy, nitrogen is NOT needed for in-the ground plants. But nitrogen is needed for pots due to leaching out.

3) I gave my white pine blood meal, NPK 12-0-0, fast release, didn't green up after 1 month, so I put alfalfa meal on top ... that gunked up, and my pine tree became more yellowish. Roots need oxygen to breathe. We aerate our lawn with machine that punch holes in the ground, and pull up plugs... the year with aeration has the greenest lawn, no fertilizer. The neighbors with professional fertilization many times a year, still have yellowish lawn, since they don't aerate their lawn.

4) Last year I gave William Shakespeare high nitrogen ACID chemical fertilizer, NPK 10-5-4, plus chicken manure. I also topped him with alfalfa meal. He was still pale and yellowish, due to alfalfa meal gunking on top of my sticky and heavy clay.

This year I give none of my roses nitrogen nor alfalfa ... they were pale in freezing spring, but now all are dark green, see below picture of Marie Pavie and Mary Magdalene.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 22:01

Here's a picture of my trees and bushes, I never fertilize them either. I don't put sulfur on any shrubs nor trees except for the own-root roses which become pale at my high pH of 7.7. Berndoodle in CA was right when she stated that her clay needed calcium, and nothing more. Heavy clay is very fertile .. Jeanie in PNW mentioned that the rose park in her rainy climate fertilize with manure once a year, and nothing else.

I found the link where Tessie (Melissa) posted on "Rethinking feeding alfalfa to roses for Southern CA ..." with regard to chlorosis and alfalfa. See below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Rethinking feeding alfalfa to roses for Southern CA

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 21:23

Considering my dad also believed in throwing old iron items about the yard to add iron to the soil, we could have filled the truck bed with it all, one would assume nothing would have issues with the lack of iron.

But we do, I suppose if we left all that rusty old metal there a 100 years it would all finish decomposing and adding to the soil. (just a week or two ago I heard that 100 years is about what it takes to do just that)

One might be better served to use an iron rich product than a box of nails.