I believe the guidelines for non composted manure are: application to be 120 days or more before harvest for root crops and 90 days before harvest for above ground crops. In my opinion with lettuce and similar low to ground quick crops, I would rather not manure that area that time...just my thing.

It all depends on how well the manure is composted. If it was fully composted I would have no problems planting in it but if I wasn't sure I would give it the time it needs just to be safe.

The Center for Disease Control, Natioanl Institute for Health, and the USDA have all come out with recommendations that animal manures not be used in vegetabe gardens sooner then 120 days for root crops or 90 days before harvesting above ground produce such as lettuce. This is due to the potential for disease pathogens, such as E-Coli, Salmonella, Listeria, etc. that might be present in animal manures.
Properly composting those manures, with 3 parts vegetable waste to 1 part manure, has been shown to reduce the potential of disease pathogens while simply allowing the manure to sit around a while as some call composted manure will not.

I don't use manure, composted or otherwise, on my food plants. I am probably overly paranoid about pathogens though. I've purchased bags of supposedly composted manure that just didn't look or smell fully composted. From what I think I know cow manure is primarily nitrogen, few other minerals and not a very balanced amendment. I just feel that traditional compost is always better.

So, Kimm, if "sitting around" does not lessen the pathogen load, why does the USDA recommend waiting 120 days after applying fresh manure?

Kimmsr, once again your interpretation of the NOP rules is incorrect. If you are going to provide this information in a public forum, at least provide the accurate information. It would also be helpful to provide a link so that people can read it for themselves. You have a bad habit of paraphrasing/interpreting some guidelines.

Lloyd

Here is a link that might be useful: Previous discussion on this topic

Pathogens aside (fears of which are overrated, I think, but your opinions may differ), most manures, if applied fresh, can damage tender seedlings and may impede germination. For that reason alone, planting right away might not be practical. If the manure was aged or composted, and mixed in well, you might be OK. Seeds are cheap...you could try.

I would also point out that the "90 days" and "120 days" guidelines are for people selling produce, not for people in their home gardens. This is not to say that they aren't good guidelines to follow anyway, but at the end of the day, what you do in your home garden, for your own consumption, is your own business, and you need to assess your own comfort level for the risk.

Remember, too, that guidelines like that need to be broad enough to cover all scenarios -- any type of manure, any age, any weather conditions. The reality is that different manures, under different conditions, break down at different rates. Even in the case where there is a pathogen present (and big scary pathogens are not always present, not even in manure), in "some" or maybe even "most" cases, the pathogen risk will be gone well before that 90 or 120 days, because those numbers were chosen to cover "all" cases.

Also...while all manure has E. coli in it, only a very few and not very common strains of E. coli are "scary" ones. Plain old E. coli is everywhere, and while you certainly shouldn't eat it for breakfast, the big scary stories you may have heard are not due to the "plain old" strains. Washing your produce well, and cooking it, is another step that you can take if you feel less than certain about pathogens in your garden. I don't know about your garden, but in mine, I can assure you that the birds and the local rabbits have added their own additional manure much more recently than 120 days ago, so washing is key.

The thing about mass-produced and mass-consumed produce is that you can't bet on anyone in the chain being smart, or paying attention. In a huge farming operation, there is no individual farmer lovingly inspecting every tomato, because there's just too much, and they're just too busy. You also can't count on the average consumer washing things well before eating them. Factors like this are what require stringent guidelines for mass-produced crops, because "OK, everyone, just don't do anything dumb" isn't going to cut it under those conditions. A well-informed individual, in their home garden, controlling every step in the chain, is in a much better position to "just not do anything dumb."

Frankly, I wish there was more discussion on this forum about the practical application of manures. I'm still working on what I learned from my great-great Aunt & Uncle when I was 8 years old. While they had one of the most amazing gardens I've ever seen, I'd love to hear some additional input from someone who was born in the 20th century rather than the 19th.

No matter what you decide to do this year, I think you can be assured that your garden soil will be much improved next year.

Kendra, if you plant now it's going to be at least 30-60 days before you can harvest anything. So even if the manure was only composted for a few weeks before bagging, you should be fine. If the bags smell earthy like compost, very likely it's been aged for awhile. If they smell very bad like fresh manure, I would be more careful. Just my opinion.

Always wash vegetables anyway, because even healthy soil is full of millions of microbes. Most of them are harmless, just doing what they do, but it's good not to eat dirt regardless. :-]

Happy gardening.

I don't think there is any concern about animal manures whatsoever, unless it was from a concentrated feed-lot.

Some crops are highly tolerant of "hot" manure and it was often used for them and they do very well with it. Turnips, for example.

Now I'm worried then about this E Coli thing and my vegetables. I want to grow greens, but also lettuce, etc. How is simply rinsing them going to rid them of any E Coli?

My compost bin's contents aren't fully composted yet, but I've ordered worms and will place them in the bin so that I was have fertilizer that's more nutrient rich for my plants.

I am taken aback by that. Do non-CAFO cows somehow have sterile poop? Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.

Lloyd, thanks for the link.
Pathogens are real & I use the 90/120 rule, but I know persons who used fresh/green horse manure to side dress crops & his family came to no known harm in the 24 months we worked together.
He laughed when I told him of the dangers.
I would never use raw manure for many reasons & told this man so.

Food poisoning is much more common then many people think and the Center for Disease Control estimates one in six people, in the USA, have that each year. Many people have what they call the 24, 48, or 72 hour "flu" which is really a form of food poisoing and not Gastroenteritis, or the "flu" and do not go see their doctor. Even, often, when people do see the doctor this does not get reported because the tests to confirm food poisoning is not done.

Why then is it unnecessary to take simple precautions that can prevent your family from getting food poisoning?

My worries about using uncomposted manure and the pathogens that may be present stem from being married to a chemist who works in global sanitation. Kimmsr nailed it. It is just a matter of risk and the availability of substitutes. Aside from pathogens, what about feed contaminants such as pesticides? I remember a post on this forum where someone was having a huge issue with soil contaminated by manure from cows that were fed grains with high levels. Granted some crops are more sensitive than others.

Tox, cows in tight miserable quarters fed grain are always sick, not surprisingly. Healthy cows eating entirely or largely grass will have harmless manure that is my opinion. Of course, the only way to get such manure is to drive in fields and pick it up, which I used to do. It also has less fertilizer value than the high-octane grain-fed stuff.

All in all, it's easier and greener to use one's own manure.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think e coli in the intestinal tract is a sign of disease, it's normal for cows, isn't it? As it is for humans. Listeria, salmonella, etc. are all present in cow poop. I was just reading that listeria exists naturally in soil.

I would grant you that CAFO manure is probably not quite identical, but I'm having a hard time believing cow poop from a pasture is free of human pathogens.

Probably very little that one comes in contact with is free of pathogens that could be dangerous to humans.

Oh, fergoodness sake!

OK, if you can point to a study comparing colony counts of e coli and/or other pathogens in pastured vs. CAFO cow poop, I will gladly read it.

Otherwise, I am not going to advise anyone to grow vegetables in manure of any kind until it's sufficiently aged.

From the Organic Trade Assosiation web site.
"What is the connection between E. coli and manure use in farming?

Conventional and organic agriculture both use manure as a part of regular farm soil fertilization programs. Certified organic farmers, however, must maintain a farm plan detailing the methods used to build soil fertility, including the application of manure, as mandated by the Organic Foods Production Act (OFPA) of 1990 and the National Organic Program (NOP) rule of December 2000. According to the latter, raw animal manure must be composted if it is to be applied to land used for a crop intended for human consumption, unless it is applied to the land at least 120 days prior to harvest if the edible part crops come in contact with soil, and at least 90 days prior to harvest of edible parts that do not come into contact with soil. OFPA further recommends a longer period if soil or other conditions warrant. No other agricultural regulation in the United States imposes such strict control on the use of manure."

Is there ANY regulation, or even guideline, that actually differentiates between CAFO and free-range manure?

And is manure from a barn and pasture with 10 cows considered "CAFO manure"?

Tox, I think some people are using the term CAFO when in fact they technically mean 'grain fed'. There is some literature out there that claims that grain fed animals produce more of the dangerous types of e-coli versus grass fed. I'm not sure that these folks have taken into account that some CAFO cattle may very well be grass fed so using CAFO as a derogatory term does no one any good. Nor am I aware of any studies that take into account that some cattle are grass fed for a majority of their life and then grain fed for a short period prior to slaughter. In fact, I would imagine there are many different procedures for the raising of cattle that have not been looked at. It seems that some people like to invoke terms like CAFO and Monsanto just to stir up the masses that won't take the time to do a little research.

Lloyd

What I think is pretty "fer goodness sake" is thinking that it is at all likely to contract some serious disease eating vegetables grown near manure that was not aged for years.

Let's say you took fresh cow manure right out of the stall, tilled it into the ground, and the next day you direct-seeded turnips. Maybe 90 days later you pull some turnips, cook and eat them. Is an e.coli infection more likely from that than going to a public restroom? No. If there is the slightest concern then don't eat it raw.

What is a lot more relevant than far-fetched contamination concerns is the real issue of which crops grow poorly on fresh manure.

Um, we're all sitting here discussing 90 days, I don't remember anyone mentioning aging for years. I only challenged the idea of using fresh manure, regardless of the source.

Re turnips, I made the exact same statement about planting and harvesting about halfway up this thread.

I do think there's a reasonable medium between complete lack of caution and not using it at all. Can we at least agree on that?

Whether any manure, animal or human, potentially can contain a disease pathogen depends on many things, but whether the source is a CAFO or field is not one of them. Animals feed a grain diet tend to have higher pathogen counts then do grass fed animals, but those pathogens are still there in the grass fed animals.
Since taking the precautions necessary to prevent possible exposurre to these potential diseases is so simple why would anyone counsel that they are unnecssary?

What I love about these arguments is how everybody repeats more or less the same thing as if it were diametrically opposed. I'm as guilty as any, probably. Reminds me of banal domestic arguments.

How about this: it isn't unnecessary to avoid ingesting large doses of pathogens. Happily, avoiding that is easy, as easy as using animal manure for fertilizer in the garden, for example.

You no got it unright.

I am monometrically opposed to my own views on this topic.

This is another case of people (usually city dwellers) that read all these posts on the GW and over the years start to regergitate the same mythical talking points of the day. Almost everything has some form of ecoli on it, every piece of meat you ever buy has it, when heated most of it gets killed and the rest are taken care of by your white blood cells.The reason the government says give it 120 days because they are covering thier butts. Cattle farmers routinley drive the front end loader into the corral in the spring and dump a few tons of maure on the garden and then level it and plow it under and then plant thier garden.We are walking in fresh manure every day have it on our hands and pants, its floating in the air and you know what? Ill bet we are healthier than most over sensitive hypocodriacs living in the city. People Its fertilizer and humus use it if you want but there is nothing wrong with it, this is just another case of people over analyzing dirt.I wonder do city people breath without gas masks? Because they will ingest way more unhealthy things than they will by tilling in wet cow or horse s*** in thier gardens.

PS I wonder what how they justify thier house pets who spread ecoli onto thier furniture when after taking a dump jump onto thier bed or sofa or carpet?

Ummm, Robb...meat is normally cooked, lettuce as well as some other vegetables are not. Getting pathogens on your hands is not the same as ingesting it. And last, each person has different reactions and tolerances to some pathogens. In the case of Walkerton, some people died, some got violently sick, some mildly sick and some were hardly affected.

Guidelines are often written to err on the side of safety for a reason. Your POV is like telling pilots they can descend below minimums because there is a safety factor built in and it's okay to encroach on those margins.

Having said that, I've often had a sandwich while working around the farm and not washed my hands, but I don't advocate others do it.

Lloyd

Common sense should be telling us to take very simple precautions to prevent potential exposure to disease pathogens, simple things such as properly washing our hands and food and proper cooking of that food, as well as proper handling of some of the sources of these disease pathogens. Those of us that counsel caution in using animal manures are not paranoid we simply believe that taking these very simple precautions is common sense.
The chance that you might get sick is pretty slim, about 200,000 people each day in the USA, but if you do you will have a not pleasant experience that might (about 900 people per day) put you in a hospital and maybe die (about 14 per day).
The odds of anyone getting sick are quite slim but why not make them even better by taking some very simple precautions. If you have never had food poisoning I can tell you that you do not want to.