No problem, Strawberry. I think I cleared out the info you'd like to keep under your garden hat. If there's anything else in my response that needs censoring, please just let me know. I did retain the paragraph praising your lush garden. :-)

Carol

What a gorgeous bouquet! What is the name of the white or possibly pale peach rose on the lower right, strawberryhill?

Ingrid

Thank you, Carol for helping me, you are a sweetheart. I didn't know about patent laws and new roses until Kim Rupert (Roseseek) informed me. Carol, you have a toddler, right? I really miss carrying a baby around. My kid didn't want me to carry her when she was a toddler, she was walking at 8 months, so that didn't help! Now she's 10 years old, and taller than me ... too late to carry her.

Hi Ingrid: the pale peach/white on the lowest right is Bolero, a Romantica floribunda ... that one blooms well with alkaline tap water and summer heat 90 to 100 degrees. The big peachy-pink is Evelyn, likes alkaline water and heat too. The smaller peachy ones are Mary Magdalene, burnt at higher heat, only pretty in cool/rainy weather.

I doubled the number of blooms of Golden Celebration by sulfate of potash, sulfur and gypsum (calcium sulfate) .... the sulfate part lowers the pH of my alkaline tap water and soil. I didn't give Golden Celebration any nitrogen, since I want it to be short. It's 100% clean, no aphids nor black spots despite our 2-weeks of rain.

I didn't give Radio Times any fertilizer nor horse manure, very little blooms, compared to last year of 40+ blooms in spring flush. I tested bone meal on top, it gunked up. One study showed that granular phosphorus only moves 1" down below.

Even the soluble high-phosphorus can't be dissolve unless I put acid in the water. Phosphorus is abundant at neutral pH, so the pH has to be corrected for it to be released.

I'm burnt plants with phosphorus 3 times: 1) Topped geraniums with bone meal, amazing vibrant colors & glowing blooms, but leaves got scorched & brown plants. 2) Burnt Deep Purple rose recently with bone meal on top. 3) Burnt my petunia in pot one summer ... I gave it too much soluble high phosphorus fertilizer, after the neighbors complimented my wave petunia.

Soluble phosphorus works well, but a little bit goes a long way. Solid phosphorus (superphosphate) mixed in the hole was OK, nice blooms color.

Ingrid, Bolero would be blushing-pink beauty in your soil high in phosphorus plus trace elements of your decomposed granite soil. It's only pretty here when I give it horse manure, see picture below:

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jun 7, 13 at 22:54

Here's another shot of Bolero floribunda for Ingrid, it looks like that in slightly acidic potting soil, topped with horse manure for trace elements. If you don't have horse manure, the below link to Gardenville Sea Tea with all chelated trace elements & molass & fish emulsion ... that organic stuff also deepens the color of blooms.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gardenville Sea tea with chelated trace elements

Strawberry, when I went to a rose days near me the speaker from a major rose distributor was going on and on about the wonders of Bolero and how it was not "that horrible pinkish tint on iceberg" he went on about how that was a fault with iceberg and the wonderous Bolero never had pink.

Kind of interesting your soil experiments made it tint pink.

The pink tints in Bolero will probably burn out with our intense sun and heat, Kippy. Or, with MINE, rather. Kim

I love the pink tint personally (in both Iceberg and Strawberries photo) Just thought it was interesting.

Were you roasting today Kim? I could see the clouds popping up over the mountain range and figured some one was hot and it was sucking the fog back in...boy do I love fog. And boy am I glad I don't live in Bakersfield (sorry to everyone that does live there! the clouds were Bako way)

I spent a few hours in Palmdale (Antelope Valley, early afternoon) today, Kippy. It was gorgeous, but HOT. That made it rather nice here in Encino when I got home. I was actually out working on the hill after 6 until dusk. It was LOVELY out! Kim

Lol, when I saw that you thought it was really HOT, Kim, I couldn't help but think, "hotter than his place?" Apparently so! Could you guys please send some of that HOT here? It hasn't hit 70 all week and my roses are just sitting and won't open. My show is next Saturday! I need some blooms!

Hi Seil: Giving them some calcium will help them to open up fast. I use gypsum (calcium sulfate) to make my blooms sturdy. I don't have much sun here... we had 2 weeks of gloomy rainy weather. Here's a bouquet I picked today. The rain water (pH 5.6) helps to release the phosphorus in my soil, so roses have better colors.

That bouquet has some heat-loving roses that has long vase-life and takes the heat well: yellow if Honey Bouquet (smells yummy like fresh honey and musk), deep pink is Liv Tyler, red is Firefighter, and orange is Versigny. All 3 smell like heaven and lasts 5 days in the vase.

Versigny is awesome. One year it was Pat's favorite at Roses Unlimited. The bush is always healthy, strong neck ... I don't need to give it sulfate of potash nor calcium.

Versigny has the best scent among the orange blooms, just as good as Golden Celebration. Vase life is 5 days.

Strawberry

Thank you for the roses! They're lovely.

Yes, my little one is a toddler. Busy, busy, busy! She is learning the names of all my roses and can distinguish between the images of the blooms stored on our iPhoto library. Ten is a wonderful age! Perfect for outdoor school and all the fun and creative lessons that gardening parents can facilitate--chemistry experiments, daylily cross pollination, weed identification (Kim's favorite?), bug and butterfly identification, etc.

Does your rose blushing tip apply to more cultivars than 'Bolero'? I have a mystery HT that sometimes blushes and sometimes doesn't. Also, I wonder if your formula would deepen or increase the the grey or tan shades in roses like 'Aschermittwoch' and 'Cafe Ole.' In my experience, weather has the greatest effect on flower color, but I've never tried experimenting with soil composition.

I hope you get a chuckle if I share this image with you. I have a picture of you in my head. I see you clad in a white lab coat, surrounded by test tubes and beakers filled with bubbly illuminated fluids. In the foreground are hundreds of potted roses . In the background, a Jacob's Ladder. As you inspect the foliage of a particularly susceptible HT under the microscope, you turn to your daughter with a broad smile and exclaim, "Eureka! I've found it. A cure for blackspot."

:-)

Carol

This post was edited by PortlandMysteryRose on Sun, Jun 9, 13 at 2:08

Hiss, Strawbs, my eyes simply glaze over when you are going on about sulphate of this or potassium blah blah (if we met, I would be the one with fingers in ears....' la la lah, I can't hear you lah la la LAZY LAZY LAZY')....but honestly, your roses really are testament to an enquiring mind and a whole heap of patience for feeding, faffing and fiddling about. Lovely....and I will enjoy them vicariously.

Thank you, Camp, I enjoy your sense of humor just as much as your compliments.

Hi Carol: I agree that cool weather deepens the color. Phosphorus shifts the color to the red range, I checked on that in Ingrid's thread "A rant about the Dark Lady".

Here's what I wrote in that thread: "I tested bonemeal on geraniums, it's high in phosphorus, which shifts color to the red range. Ingrid, your soil is decomposed granite, high in phosphorus, thus your Dark Lady rose is gaudy red.

If you want the "blue" pigment to deepen your "The Dark Lady", aluminum sulfate is suggested to turn hydrangea blue as well. Check out this quote taken from the link below:

"TED STEPHENS, horticulturist and owner of Nurseries Caroliniana, in South Carolina, wrote in his most recent catalog: Generally, an acidic or low pH will induce 'blueness'; whereas, a higher or alkaline pH will induce 'pinkness or redness'. Work in England seems to indicate that higher aluminum content influences blueness more than pH levels.

We gave Dr. Jim Midcap of the U. of GA a number of plants on which to run "color changing" experiments. By applying aluminum sulphate at the rate of 2 ounces in a 3 gallon container, he was able to change 'Masja', which is normally a red, to a brilliant blue. This application was made as soon as flower buds were evident in the new shoots in the spring, about 6 weeks before flower maturity."

From my experiments, LOWERING the pH deepens the colors more so than horse manure. I was able to change William Shakespeare bloom from fuschia pink to more purple, see pic. below:

Here is a link that might be useful: How to change color of hydrangeas

Plug your ears, Campanula!

Strawberry, that's interesting about the phosphorus. I'm guessing my soil pH is about right for optimal phosphorus absorption. Question about bluing roses: won't increasing the soil acidity/blue shade of flowers through an application of aluminum sulfate increase the likelihood of all those pH-related diseases you've been discussing? Carol

You are right, Carol, aluminum toxicity is a big problem in acidic soil ... it's not worth it to lower pH to promote fungal growth either.

On page 248 of Science book, see link below, in 1908 the Rhode Island Rose society did experiments of cut roses, and they found a 7 to 10% sugar solution improved the appearance of cut roses, plus deepened the colors of the pink varieties.

Which explains why Gardenville Sea Tea with molass deepened the colors of Serena's roses in KS, listed under Organic Honey-bees Garden profile in HMF.

Here's a bouquet cut today, at 80 degrees temp. I put gypsum (calcium sulfate), plus a soluble low-salt monopotassium phosphate NPK of 0-52-34. I like the color change in William Shakespeare (dark red) below:

Here is a link that might be useful: 1908 Rhode Island experiment with cut roses

Thank you, Strawberry. My grandmom and mom taught me to use a little sugar and a tiny bit of lemon juice in cut flower vases. Same theory, same generation. Maybe they read the book. Dare I ask how many books you've read? You must be a chemist. (A real one, not just one in my sci fi imagination.) Carol

Hi Carol: I read 6 books on roses. My major is in Computer Science, minor in chemistry. I worked as a C-programmer. I had fun with biochemistry and microbiology classes in college. Your toddler is very smart with her knowing the names of roses at that age. Kids have great memory.

Horse manure still beats all the chemicals I experimented. The very-disease resistant roses: Francis Blaise, Queen of Sweden and Versigny DO NOT LIKE sulfate of potash, NPK 0-0-50, their petals became brown after that application.

Sulfate of potash is best applied before buds are formed, only on roses that need potassium. Wikipedia stated that "High nitrogen and high potassium induce a calcium deficiency." That explains why Francis Blaise petals became brown after sulfate of potash. Calcium prevents botrytis, or browning of petals.

Sulfate of potash works IMMEDIATELY, it's very water soluble, versus harder to dissolve gypsum. I'm going to order gypsum in powder form, the pellets form I'm using doesn't dissolve even after 2 weeks of rain.

Below is Francis Blaise, pink bloom, before I made his other blooms' edges brownish through sulfate of potash, NPK 0-0-50, which drove down calcium.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Jun 9, 13 at 17:12