By the way, I'll probably be wanting something for picking up leaves too. I've seen setups for the ZTRs, but not sure how they compare to what's available for garden tractors.

Thanks again!

ensign,
I asked the same question before I purchased my garden tractor. I went to my local Honda dealer whom I trust and posed the ?, ATV or tractor. He suggested tractor unequivocally. Said that the ATV wouldn't provide the level of service, the quality of cut. Most tow behind cutters for ATV's are fair for open fields but are a pain cutting around trees, edging, etc. I have been happy with a 2WD tractor with wheel weights and lug tires but you could use turf tires and chains in the winter for plowing/blowing snow. There are some good 4WD garden tractors out there if you wanted to be sure that you had enough traction especially if you have hills. As far as the ZTR, they are great at mowing the lawn, but they are also more specialized and wouldn't be my choice for multiple duty. The time difference between ZTR and GT is probably not going to be that significant, especially since you want to use your machine for multiple duty. IMO. Happy hunting.

I don't know what's better for your situation, but I can tell you that Zero turns are WAY more fun to operate. They are pretty much limited to mowing, but they do that very well. I guess if you can afford it, I would go with the ZTR for mowing and ATV for plowing and fooling around on. Where are you located in Maryland? I'm north of Baltimore. I got my Hustler at Lyons and Lyons in Glenarm and they let me mow with one at their place and brought one to my house to let me try it on my hillside. I was sold.
The ZTR can do a good job of cutting grass at a fast speed because the blades usually turn faster than on tractors. I never have to rake now with my ZTR because everyting gets cut up more finely and doesn't lay around like it did with my tractors. I don't use mulching blades either.
That's my two cents.

I would go with a tractor for the reasons already stated and then get a dirt bike, they are much more fun then a 4-wheeler.

I live north of Baltimore also, in Baldwin. Probably very close to you.

I like dirt bikes, but I'm too worried about hurting myself these days. I tend to fall over less on four wheelers. :)

That makes sense about ZTRs turning the blades faster. I was just wondering if you had a straight, flat section of open grass, how a ZTR would still help you cut any faster.

Thanks!

"I was just wondering if you had a straight, flat section of open grass, how a ZTR would still help you cut any faster."

The good ZTRs can mow at significantly faster ground speeds than GTs.

Considering the size of your property and length of your driveway, I'd go with the ZTR and ATV. The ATV can also be used for hauling. Trust me, you'll find plenty of uses for a cart on 3 acres.

You can also buy a 3 point hitch for your ATV. Here's an example.

3 Point Hitch

A 3 point hitch will allow you to hook up any 3 point tractor implement rated for your hitch class.

-Deerslayer

Zero Turn Mowers mow faster for several reasons. Mainly they allow the operator to maneuver faster because the controls require little movement to accomplish turns, vary speed, or reverse. The two control levers move only a few inches and operator input is minimal and almost effortless. The operator of a garden tractor simply cannot turn the steering wheel fast enough to keep up with even conservative turns that a ZTR can do easily. Blade tip speed (which is limited to a maximum of 19200 fpm) is virtually the same on almost all riding mowers of either type so that is not a factor. A full size ZTR like my Kubota ZD21 should push snow about as good as anything out there. There are snow blades for ZTRs.
Check out this site. http://www.countryztr.com/snowplow.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Snow Blade

Even though blade tip speed is regulated and the same for all mowers, quality ZTRs get much closer to the limit than quality tractors. Here are some examples.

Tractor Blade Tip Speeds
Notice that the Blade Tip Speeds are about 15,000 to 16,000 fpm. Also notice that some of the decks weigh over 400 lbs. This is quality equipment.

ZTR Blade Tip Speed
The Hustlers have a blade tip speed of 18,900 fpm with a 72" deck. Also, notice that the top speed is 15 mph on the Super Z. As I said before, good ZTRs have faster ground speeds than tractors. Another thing that's important that I didn't mention earlier is that good ZTRs can power large mower decks. Keep in mind that box store ZTRs have specs much closer to tractors.

-Deerslayer

I just noticed your question regarding leaves. A good ZTR with fast blade tip speed can mulch the heck out of leaves. I suggest that you try mulching. You may find that's all you need to do. BTW, I have more trees than I care to count in and surrounding my lawn areas. I mulch mow my leaves and grass clippings.

-Deerslayer

deerslayer, Your link to New Holland showing about 15500 fpm is interesting. I didn't know some turned that slow. That's like a 21" mower turning at 2850 rpm. To me that's down in the area where cut quality is sacrificed. Anyway you point is well taken.

I just bought a new tractor about a month ago and was thinking the same thing. I mow about 3ac or so the rest is bailed. My land is old pasture in parts, was crops in others. I test rode my neighbors ZTR and while you could go faster you did not want to. It would just beat you to death. The ATV you could go a little faster on but the tow behind would not cut as well at those speeds. I got the regular tractor because it could just do more. My neighbor still thinks I am crazy. But I hated driving the ZTR you had to drive it every minute. The tractor you just steer with you knee sip your drink and enjoy the ride. The ZTR was more like you where working.

Ensign - Do you know where Glenarm Rd is? Stop in at Lyons and Lyons and ask to test drive a Hustler or whatever other brand they have. Jim Lyons will set you up outside and you can mow all you want. Keep in mind that there is a learing curve and you won't be able to hold a straight line at first. But you'll see that you can mow well, at a faster speed than you can with a tractor.
As for getting beaten to death, my Hustler has optional flex forks in the front which take some of the jarring out of the ride. I think Simplicity has models with front suspension.

I'm in Kingsville, between Harford Rd and BelAir Rd, so you're close enough that you could come here and try my Hustler if you want. I don't know if there is private messaging in this forum, so let me know through a reply in this thread if you are interested in doing that.

Cherokee, I agree that a ZTR driven at high speed over rough terrain will "beat you to death". However, if you drive a GT over the same terrain at the same speed it will "beat you to death", too.

That said, you make a valid point in that in rough terrain you will not be able to take advantage of the higher ground speeds a ZTR offers.

-Deerslayer

That was the main thing I was trying to say, if the major selling point is speed and your land is pretty bumpy you have problems.

I also noticed that you tend to sit higher on the ZTR's I looked at vs the tractor. This can be a problem if you deal with trees that have low hanging limbs.

I realy wanted a ZTR and was going to buy one until I drove his. I just did not care for it. That is why they still make both different strokes for different folks.

Here's what I've found out about Zs.

They are faster, even if you retain the same ground speed as a GT, because you save a lot of time on turns. You can easily adjust your speed to the ground conditions. .. if you have a decent run, you can simply ease the sticks forward. I had both, the Woods Z and my Toro HMR, when I had damaged my back a bit. The Z was much easier on my back, although, I do have the suspension seat, but the back is higher.

You can take a hand off the stick to wave or scratch, if you aren't trying to do some fancy maneuver.

My friend has a Simplicity with the front suspension, however he doesn't think it helps too much. I do think, a pivoting front axle would help keep the weight on the drive wheels, as the fronts are heavy. If one of the caster wheels goes down (into hole or a rounded incline), it takes the weight off of the opposite rear tire.

Some have rear tow hitches, some have add-ons. They tow fine. Some of the commercial units have a bunch of attachments. (brooms, rakes, snow plows and baggers)

They can be a bit unpredictable on steep inclines.

But, I do find them to be FUN! I look forward to mowing.

Yes ZTRs are very much faster. Most of the hoorah about Tip speeds is just smoke and mirrors. If the machine is designed for a special purpose it will do it in most cases. Plus the right machine will have avallable good accessories or attachments that will do other chores as well.

Here is a post that I did a couple of weeks ago.

A good friend of mine has an acerage approx 3.5 acres of grass, .5 acres of buildings, obstacles are the buildings, dozens and dozens of mature evergreens in the windbreak, dozens of trees in the balance of the yard. A horse pasture that he mows which has wood fence posts every 8' I didn't bother to count them, but there were a lot.

Any way Labor Day weekend, he called and asked me if I could come up and mow his yard, as his mower was down and in the shop, and the grass was starting to resemble the Amazon Jungle (his discription).

He has been routinely for the past 3 years been mowing every week and keeping his lawn at 3", this is a very mature heavy blue grass lawn.

His normal shortest mowing time has been between 4 - 4.5 hours with out trimming with a weed wackeer.

I took my ZTR up there to his place and mowed and trimmed all the trees and posts and around all the buildings tight, in 1.5 hrs and it would have been faster, but we had to pull my mower out of a hole that I did not see in the edge of the ditch hidden by weeds. That took about 15 minutes.

Real mowing time: 1 hour 15 minutes.

He had always told me that he could not believe the times that I had told him for mowing my yard. After seeing this demonstration of mowing. He is trading up this week.

Just an informal comparrison.

Here is the link to see the mower I was driving.

Here is a link that might be useful: Click

They do make a ZTR called a grasshopper that will have many attachments that will remove leaves, thatch, and a couple of other things.But from what i see you may need a sub compact tractor for the weather plus the fun of having a tractor that can do almost any job you want with reason of its size.Moving snow with 4wd will be a big help and if you get a FEL it will have more uses than can think of.I have an ATV but now that i have a tractor it stays in the shed until i need some fun in the mud.For rec time the ATV is great but for all around work the tractor will do ALL.One more thing the sub compact will have about 30 attachments or so to chose for the job your working on.

A compact tractor might be the right thing for you, I have a JD650 with a belly mower. It works great for out and about. Has a 3pt hitch and will pull a 2 bottom plow ok. The pto will run a post hole digger (I hate digging holes for trees and such) and it was not anymore expensive then a new JD big garden tractor, but it is a 1000 times more machine. For close to the house you will need something else, I did my around house for years with a push mower and a weed wacker. You can get pretty close.

Just another option, but if you are looking for something with 3pt. mow, have a PTO, a small real tractor might be the way to go.

Some of the numbers thrown around in this thread are ridiculous. 5 or 10% higher blade speeds will not allow you to mow at 2X the ground speed. And the chassis arraignment of most ZTR's sure won't let you run 2X the ground speed of a GT on rough terrain.

A ZTR and GT with equal deck size will be a lot more equal in mowing large open areas than many are maintaining. And any difference is simply because of the maneuvering advantage of the ZTR. Not any high ground speed blade tip speed magic...

Well, I never said there was any magic. I'm just talking from my experience. I've got a Cub Cadet 18hp LT and a 17hp Hustler ZTR. If I try to mow at full speed on the Cub it does not do a good job of cutting. And the top speed is lower than that of my ZTR. The ZTR on the other hand will do a good job of cutting at full speed if I choose to do that.
Based on the spec sheets of the various mowers I was looking at prior to purchasing my ZTR, I believe the ability of my Hustler to cut well at higher speed is due to the higher blade speed.

"5 or 10% higher blade speeds will not allow you to mow at 2X the ground speed."

Who said that it does?

-Deerslayer

Folks,
The people (or small businesses) that cut grass to make money use ZTR's. The one's getting started in the business may use GT/LT for a short time but are upgrading to a ZTR just as soon as the business can support the investment. The one's that are not upgrading (to ZTR's) are gone in a year. All factors mentioned have some effect in the speed of grass mowing "ZTR's are designed to cut grass first", "Tractors are designed multi-purpose first".
My small business is adding small accent beds in new or existing lawns. I use small walk behind tillers and hand tools. There are some larger beds (not many) that I do; but rent the special eauipment that those jobs require. I do have a 2040 deere but use that for FEL (load and move material) primarly - just doesn't fit where I work mostly.
The bottom line is if ypou want to mow "fast and well" a ZTR is the tool designed for that function.
Tried mowing with the 2040 and RM990 Woods finish mower(96"cut) - the ZTR's w/72" decks were out producing me and with better looking results. Maybe next year I will get a ZTR and hire summer help to run it for me. Issues there also.

There could also be the possibility that the people that cut grass to make money use a ZTR because of its ability to manuver in tight areas. A home owner that has to mow around 6 trees is going to take 5 minutes longer once a week. If I have a lawn crew 4 guys that mow 6 lots with 6 trees per day 6 days a week, those 5 minutes will add up over a month.

Plus if a home owner (expecially one with some ac) wants to till, dig, whatever he has to do it himself and it would be nice to have one machine that could mow and till, dig, whatever. The lawn crew has a crew will have the machine and MANPOWER to do the different tasks they are required to do.

Most home owners need a jack of all trades type of machine, if they are looking at one machine.
You are not going to mount a snow thrower on most ZTR's.
The only reason I even looked at ZTR's is I had other tractors to do other work. And I still passed on them.

Other people love them and would never mow with anything else, as I said that is why they make both.

I think the best debate is not whether or not a ZTR is a better tool to cut grass than is a tractor, but rather whether or not most homeowners need a jack of all trades machine.

In my neighborhood, which is made up mostly of homes with two and one acre lawns, I rarely see anybody with anything attached to their tractors. I think I have one neighbor who has a snow attachment, but that's about it. Everybody else only uses the tractor as a ride-on lawnmower.

As I've mentioned a couple times in these forums, changing from a tractor to a ZTR has made an incredible difference for me. For everyone else like me, such as all but one of my neighbors, I feel completely comfortable with telling them to do what I did. It's like using a table saw to cut miter joints for your moulding or using a chef's knife to cut crusty bread. Both of those will work, but if all you're ever going to do is make miter joints or cut bread, then you why wouldn't you just get yourself a miter saw and a bread knife?

This certainly has turned into a debate about ZTR vs Tractor. But if we go back to ensign's original post, he was asking about a ZTR and an ATV versus a Garden tractor. In that context I would go with the ZTR for fun mowing and the ATV for odd jobs and recreational riding.

"5 or 10% higher blade speeds will not allow you to mow at 2X the ground speed."

"Who said that it does?"

It would be easy to get that impression from this thread when people are stating their mowing times were cut to 1/3, or talking about ZTRs with 15 MPH ground speeds. That's roughly 2X the ground speed of common GTs. All I can say is running 15 MPH on a ZTR you better be mowing a pool table.

So while I'm not opposed to ZTRs on principal, I just don't think they'll all that impressive much of the time. That's mostly based on my son in law's almost $8000 Grasshopper. After seeing it used at my place I was underwhelmed. It's fast because of maneuverability but it's mostly because of it's large deck. And it doesn't mow nearly as smoothly as my Cub 2554 while leaving noticeable pivot marks from the inside wheel if you aren't careful when you turn.

"All I can say is running 15 MPH on a ZTR you better be mowing a pool table."

I agree that you need a very smooth lawn to go that fast. The point is that ZTRs have the capability to go as fast as conditions permit.

Keep in mind that the key market for high end ZTRs is commercial users. They mow very rough lawns and very smooth lawns and everything in between. A ZTR will mow all of those lawns as fast as possible. A tractor won't.

BTW, I recently saw a grounds keeper mowing a local baseball field on a ZTR at what I estimated to be about 15 mph.

-Deerslayer

The Hustler Super Mini Z has a ground speed of 13 mph....can't touch this.. Uh, I'll take one please.. ;-)

As far as attachments for ZTRs, they seem to be growing as ZTRs get more popular and are getting a slice of the garden/lawn tractor market.
http://countrymfg.stores.yahoo.net/ztrmoat.html

If you pay attention to the pros, notice what tools and equipment they use, and how they do their jobs, you are probably on the right track.

Here is a link that might be useful: ZTR attachments

ensign,
A ZTR and a ATV is a very good option, will pretty do every thing a GT will do. ZTR will mow your grass faster giving you more time for recreational riding on the ATV.
Sounds like budget is not a big issue with you, you may what to check out a side by side UV (gator,ranger,RTV900, or the like) in place of the ATV. GT is alot cheaper than the ZTR/ATV but who wants receational riding a GT around at 5.5 mph (max forward speed per ASAE standards). Don't forget the smile factor.
Also if you buy both a ZTR and ATV at the same dealership you may get the max discount in pricing on both.

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I really do appreciate it. I haven't made up my mind yet, but you all have provided some very useful information.

Budget definitely is an issue for me, and I will likely be looking in the used market for whatever option I decide. For now, I'm paying the guy that cut the grass before we moved to the house. He charges $80 a cut, which isn't too bad considering the amount of grass being cut. I probably should keep that option open too, since it saves me time and the hassles of maintaining additional equipment.

I should have mentioned the driveway is about 500' long, but I do have a 27" 8hp snow blower that should get me through most snows.

Thanks again!

Nice long driveway mine is 660' (the limit to run the elect. for no extra charge)

You have a lot you want to cut, I would bet you will fall into what I have....If you have kids or what I call OLSD's
Organic Labor Saving Device. You will end up with more then one mower. My kid started "mowing" at 7. And still loves to mow, (drive the tractor) Then get the wife out there and have 3 machines going you will be done in no time.

The family that mows together stays together.

Have fun. I just found out I have over 600 bulbs to plant...seems the wife found a "deal". When you have a little land the jobs never end.

cherokee,
OMIGOD! My wife went to Costco and couldn't decide which bulbs she liked, so she bought them all! We don't have any OLSD's yet. I'm still trying to figure out how to attach a dethatcher to the dog.

Dude,

1st let me welcome you to GW. I also want to say that I grew up off of Pot Springs and went to Dulaney... Had lot's of friends that went to Loch Raven so I know the area very, very well. Dang I miss some of those field parties I use to attend out your way.

With that over, let me tell you what I feel you need. You need a ZTR and SCUT. The ZTR for finish mowing and the SCUT for everything else. It'll cost ya, but in the long run, you won't regret it.

My neighbor has a ZTR and he cuts his lawn in less then half the time it take me on my riding mower with a 42" deck. He also never has any clipping to pick up because the ZTR cuts so fine.

Me, I've been shopping for a CUT or SCUT (I'm leaning toward the Kioti CK20) and when I can afford to replace my riding mower, I'll get a ZTR.

When it comes to cutting grass, there's no comparison between a tractor to a ZTR. The ZTR is specifically designed for cutting.

I mow a 3 acre kennel, a 2 acre shop area, and a 1 acre homesite.

I run a Kubota diesel with a 54" belly deck;
a 48" ZTR;
and a 42" GT.

Good:
In large areas, the Kubota is much faster, and much cheaper to operate.
It will run all day on 2 galls, the gas ZTR will use 5.
It cuts better because it really does have faster rotational blade speed.
Bad:
The Kubota is heavy and will get stuck in the infamous Crosby (sod capital of the world) mud so we can't use it much in the rainy season.

Good:
The ZTR is extremely nimble and great for areas with lots of trees, etc.
It is incredibly fast for smaller areas with lots of turns.

Bad:
ZTRs are uncontrollable on slippery and / or sloped ground.
They are dangerous around ditches, ponds, etc.
The problem is that the casters do not provide the stability of wheels.
Like a motorcycle, they have only 2 wheels which must do everything: drive, steer, hold a course, etc.

If you get in mud, the casters rut in and it is a nightmare to get going again unless you have a tractor to pull them out.
Only a gorilla can push a stuck ZTR.
I am a big guy but eventually mounted a boat winch on mine.

Also, a ZTR is nimble ONLY if you can swing the deck.
In corners or tight spots they are treacherous.
You must be able to swing the deck ... or else you have to shut it down, get off, lift the deck (keep an 8 foot 4x4 nearby), and move the casters around by hand.

Don't bother to carry a water bottle.
You cannot use a hand to fend off branches, wipe your face, swat mosquitoes, etc., etc.
You must keep both hands on both sticks; they are very sensitive.

Good:
The 42" twin blade GT works around the pond, ditches, fence corners, etc.
I outline everything with it before I fire up the big stuff.
It also carries a 50 footlong nylon rope to pull the others out when they are (frequently) stuck in the mud.
Bad:
Fast it ain't.

Well, I just won an eBay auction for a Kubota G1900 AWS with a 60" deck. Hopefully this will work out well for me. I figured this might be a good compromise between a zero turn and garden tractor. I'll be picking it up sometime next week.

woodchucker your experience in some ways is similar to mine.

I have a Cub GT and also a real 35HP tractor but it has a rough cut 6' 3 pt mounted mower and filled R1 tires so I don't use it for the yard.

We tried to use my son in law's Grasshopper a few times but there were lots of places where it just didn't work.

I have a multi layered windbreak I can mow inside of with the Cub but the Grasshopper was useless there. Not enough room to swing around and a lot of places where the deck could swing but not the back. So you have to plunge in and back out, rotate and do it again. Not fun or fast.

I also have a hill that I can turn my Cub around on easily. But the Grasshopper didn't seem any too stable there. No way would I spin it around on that hill. Even if I felt like it I'd have gotten pivot marks unless I was very careful.
In the open areas with a few trees the Grasshopper was great though. Fast thanks to it's big deck but unfortunately no more ground speed than my GT thanks to my rough yard.

It's all academic since the OP bought his Kubota AWS. Congratulations! Hopefully it'll work well for you. But it is interesting to see how opinions differ on this equipment often because of the specific work people have to do with it...