Four oclocks need heat to germinate. And the seeds will rot. I found that out last spring when I direct sowed a 1/4 pound of them and got less than 100 plants. I found a lot of rotted seeds on the ground.

If my echinacea and rudbeckia don't work this year, I'm done with those. I'll just resort to indoor sowing. I know it's me. It's not you.

NEVER, I shall NEVER give up on anything. I refuse to. (Can you hear me scream???) It took me three or four years to germinate those darn Joe Pye Weed plants, but in the end it was worth every bit of frustration.

Tiffy. (Who will be winter sowing Kiss Me Over The Garden Gate for the fifth year in 2009 because in the first year the plants grew amazing and she loved them and now she's stuck in a rut and refuses to NOT plant them. Needless to day she's a sucker for punishment, but she has also come to realize that there are others like her on this forum so she prevails with fools in good company.) :O)

Lupins grow like crazy for me Bake, if I have enough to divide lemme know in the spring and I can send you some.
I have 2 strikes against Lisianthus, not sure if I will try this year getting too late anyway.
Passiflora, forget it, tried on the heat bed, car dashboard, in a plastic bag by the pool..no luck

I'm not giving up, but I'm rather despondent about buddleia. It's the ultimate butterfly plant, and I want it.

Token, I can't believe you have issues with regular purple coneflowers. I just pull the seed heads off and throw them down where I want them and they come up. These were all just direct sowed in the mulch in the beds. There are others throughout my garden that were similarly sown.

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Never had an issue with Bells of Ireland either wintersowing them. They didn't like our summers and melted away after blooming, but the following year I did have a couple of volunteers that came up via seed the plants had distributed.

Tiffy, if you had KMOTGG, you should have it selfsow itself for years to come. I wintersowed it several years back and they grew like weeds, but unfortunately drew japanese beetles by the thousands. In subsequent years, I was pulling up seedlings by the hand fulls. Finally got it eradicated and decided to wintersow it this year again. Go figure!

Clematis: Just can't get them to do a thing from seed. I know folks say it can take a long time, but I end up ditching the containers by October. I will be checking the place wher I ditched them though!

The gorgeous blue larkspur that everyone has but me :((
I will try again this season but I am not hopeful.

Nancy

IRC, 4:00 need light to germinate? could that be the problem? They should be right on top.

:)

Regarding 4 O'clocks, I've always covered my seed and each time have had 100% germination. Last year I had a few volunteers as well. The year before last was my first time with Bells-of-Ireland. I sowed them in March and by June I finally gave up and tossed them into the middle of a bed. Within the next few weeks I had just about all of the seeds germinating! Last year I didn't sow any and was surprised by tons of self-sown ones :)
I don't understand the Echinacea and Rudbeckia one either! Each year I have to remove tons of seedlings of both to the compost pile...especially the Ruds!! It can be like a carpet :O
As for the one I've just about given up on...that would be
Yvonne's Salvia~ 2x with no germination; 3rd time I got a few to germinate and then they sat there doing absolutely nothing all summer barely reaching 4-5" tall. I'll give it one more go! Sweet Pea is another one....2x and no go from both seed traded for and commercial.

4 O'clock on May 13th
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Same container on the 20th...7 days later. Notice the 2nd row finally coming up and it's been at least 2 weeks since the first ones came in. The 3rd row came in pretty shortly after...1-2-3 how strange is that LOL! Pretty staggered pattern...don't give up!
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Tiffy, I'm one of the fools keeping you company, lol! Going on my SIXTH (gee, maybe even seventh!!) year of trying to sow KMOTGG. I just don't know why it won't work for me. But I press on.

Also still trying astrantia and centranthus ruber, for at least the fifth year.

Those are the three big toughies for me... so far!

Bells of Ireland, going on second year (zero germination last year). That's nothing compared to KMOTGG, so I'm not worried about them yet!

:)
Dee
Who definitely is not tough enough to give anything just three strikes!

Hmm... well, because my garden is very kid friendly (I invite them to come stomp around, pick, and touch) Certain things are banned from my garden because they are poisonous. Oleander (You can make rat poison out of the leaves), Castor Bean (Seeds are used to make Ricin! Yikes!), Dumb Cane (Just touching this plant and then touching your mouth causes a bad reaction), Daphne (berries are extremely poisonous!)... All these things I will never grow even if I could.

Some things I don't mind even though they can be a little dangerous because a child wouldn't put them in their mouth. Foxgloves, Lupins, and bleeding heart are examples.

I have trouble with Monarda and Baptista - I have really good luck with zinnias, black eyed susans, larkspurs and all salvias - less luck with the red salvias than with the blue or coral - wonder why?

carrie

Bells of Ireland- low germ rate but some did sprout. They last only a short time in our heat though. Lupins sprouted, bloomed beautifully 2nd year, then looked like crap. They became compost food. A couple of weeks of pretty flowers aren't worth ugly foliage the rest of the year. Four o'clocks sown early rotted, those done in spring did well. Ruds sprout and grow like crazy for me. Ditto Yvonne's Salvia. My wintersown ones don't get nearly as big as Yvonne's or Emily's done inside under lights, though. And they reseed like crazy.
Yvonne's salvia volunteers
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4:00 volunteers
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Tried bellflowers and bloonflowers twice without success. Columbine and cleome always have some germination but very low rate.

It amazes me that Yvonne's Salvia sprouts so well for me but not Vera, Miss green thumb herself. Must be a climate-related thing.

Karen

I CANNOT for the life of me get echinaceas or rudbeckias to grow either. Even when I have broken down and bought plants, they maybe last the season and then disappear.

Yep, Vera, Yvonne's Salvias... Another bane of my gardening existence...

Seedmama,

Buddleias are an obsession with me as you well know. I can't count how many I have in the holding beds right now. Just sow on the surface of the soil, gently press in and out they go. They don't germinate until the weather warms up, but when they do, they do!

Nickville, your Echinacea is very pretty. What is the shrub that is growing behind the purple Coneflower?

This is my 2nd year WSing, so nothing is at 2 strikes, let alone 3 yet. But there are some seeds I am trying again. There was zero germination on the Agastache last year, 'Purple Pygmy' and 'Apricot Sprite" and they were both commercial seeds. This year I will mix some sand in the potting mix, because these are native to the southwest US and need good drainage.

No germination on Lobelia cardinalis, Passiflora vine, and Salvia 'Lady in Red' and will try these again. My Yvonne's Salvia and Salvia 'Coral Nymph' sprouted very well though and they were both gorgeous.

I wonder sometimes if there is a problem with the seeds - especially if they were from a trade and if it's possible that they were collected when the seeds weren't fully ripe. Or I just didn't provide the right sowing conditions?

Terrene, in one of the pictures that is a redbud that was direct sown as well. I have tons of volunteers of redbuds and pull them up as weeds. In the first picture, that is a dove tree or Davidia involucrata tree. The last two years with the drought in the south it has had a hard life. It died to the ground so am not sure if it has come back as the real thing. These are very slow growing trees but once mature, they have great white dove shaped flowers.

Carrie, baptisia is a weed for me. I deadhead the plants sfter flowering to keep from having so many seedlings coming up. I have several clumps in my garden that were direct sowed just like the coneflowers and they get huge. I wonder if it is your seed source just like Terrene asked about.

I wintersowed Yvonnes salvia several years ago and had great success. I kept some of the seeds and have already wintersown them this year. Will be curious to see how long they remain viable.

thanks, terrene - actually someone had sent them to me - so maybe for some reason they were NOT Baptista, and maybe something else... or I messed up sowing them - I just don't know.. but it's all good, I just sow what works for me...

:0)

Carrie

The best help I can give anyone is to find a good seed book that has germination information. I found an old (and I mean old) Parks Success with Seeds book at a garage sale. It is wonderful! The most important information in it that I have found is when seeds need light or darkness or a period of cold stratification to germinate. I follow their recommendations and have had great success. I make myself a "cheat sheet" every year for seeds that might need special treatment and post it by my winter sowing area. For instance, Bells of Ireland need light, as do columbine, lettuce, nicotiana and the red salvia, just to name a few. Maybe this will help with your stubborn seeds.

April

If anyone has trouble with Sweet Peas get the pea/bean inoculant. Works like a charm!
I put it in a zip lock bag with a little bit of water, shake the seeds around and plant. Usually get 95 to 100% germination

I have not had good luck with pansies, wallflower, or stocks. I've had pretty poor germination with wave petunias - much better luck just with cuttings in the spring. i also had bad luck wit h rhodie seed from gardens north.

Maybe the Thompson and Morgan Seed Germination Database will help.

Sue

Here is a link that might be useful: Thomson & Morgan Seed Germination

p.s.

Some people have had success by soaking their seeds in a solution of 1 part Hydrogen Peroxide mixed with 3 parts water. Advice on length of time varies from 30 min. to overnight.

Just use the plain old pharmacy stuff, 3% strength. Hydrogen peroxide is antibacterial, has strong oxidizing properties and is a weak acid. If nothing else, it will disinfect the seeds of contamination, and possibly help germination.

Some horticulturalists use a weak solution (1:10) for use in watering. Its spontaneous decomposition releases oxygen that enhances the root development of plants and helps to treat root rot (cellular root death due to lack of oxygen) and a variety of other pests. It is also said to help control damping-off disease when occasionally misted onto the surface of seed beds.

Sue

Putting seeds in a solution of 1 tbsp of kelp fertilizer to 2 gallons of water for 15 to 30 minutes aids in the germination of most seeds. :)

Coleus & Impatiens here. But that's ok because I found Rosy Dawn Gardens who have SO many more to choose from than the seed rack!

Columbine Roman Bronze...tried 4 times already but guess what? I bought more last fall...2 more pkgs.Never say die...unless I'm killin' a plant...LOL

I can get lupines to germinate and grow but the minute I set them in the ground they croak.

I had trouble w/ Bells of Ireland in pots. Year before last I experimented by direct sewing in early fall(Sept?)in the vegetable garden. They came up like gangbusters,I cover them w/ a lo-poly tunnel for winter and then early the next spring they grew(not as tall as I had hoped for) and bloomed.

Hollyhocks use to give me fits until I learned they need light to germinate and you should only press them into the soil/ seed starting mix so the tops of them are soil level and exposed.

Cobaea(cups and saucer vine) was another booger until I learned to stick them in the mix,on their sides with top edge exposed.

Every things else listed above is pretty easy for me except echinacea paradoxa is a pill to germinate.

Buddleia,redbud and 4 o'clocks are almost weeds to me.Buddleia,I pull up,pot up and sell at farmers market. Redbuds(and dogwoods) I dig up and relocate around the yard. 4 o'clocks I pull out by the buckets. They get humongus here too. One self sewn plant at the end of the porch gets about 6 ft. tall every year and I have to prune several times over the course of the growing season so you can walk passed it. Can't pull it up. It came up in tiny opening between the conrete porch,walkway and a drainage area I made w/ rocks and quikcrete.

Peggy

I've given up on KMOTGG.

I only have the variegated KMOTGG. It has self sewn in my vegetable garden the past 3 yrs. It'll probably be all over the place this year because I didn't get around to dead heading it.

I can't keep the bugs off the plain green leaf KMOTGG so I gave up on those. Don't know why they don't eat the variegated one.

Peggy

I had trouble with nasturtiums (of all things). Out of 20 or so seeds I planted, I got 3 or 4 plants with some varieties not germinating at all! I had limited success with echinacea (only one variety germinated) and no sprouts from balloon flower. I'll admit I won't give up until I run out of seed. This year I'm going to sow everything that's left of the varieties I had problems with and just see what happens.

I do wonder how anyone could have problems with cleome or four o'clocks. They are weeds for me. I had a carpet of cleome seedlings cover almost an entire bed early this spring and anywhere I scratched the soil, more came up in place of those I'd ripped out. I still have volunteers from a few four o'clocks I planted 3 years ago!! I will admit, I don't have a clue why they do so well for me.

I've always admired KMOTGG, but just haven't found the right place for it. But then when I read they attract Japanese beetles, I crossed them off the list. I'm so glad to hear JB's don't like the variegated KMOTGG. I'll put that back on the 'someday' list.

Good luck to everyone!!

I do not think I have anything that EVER did not germinated for me... of course I have tried multiple times on plants I really wanted. Finally after 3 years of trying I bought/do you know many nurseries that carry Crambe cordifolia???/ that one plant and what do you know- I had 100 % germination on the Crambe seed... well you only need one Crambe in the garden of my size, full blown plant is 5-6 feet architectural statue...
there were some seeds that will not germinate without GA-3
like thalictrum, peltoboykinia and mitella diphylla... so I used it and got great germination every time...
some seeds are just not viable and you have to understand that- if I got 10 varieties of primula and one did not germinate while others grew like gangbusters I am pretty positve that it was not me but seeds...
not every seed likes to be wintersown...4:00 like warmth so they are indoor 100% germinators for me
so are most of impatiens except some species- need very warm humid temps to germinate that well...
there are seed that have short viability to begin with so if you do not get them properly stored or very very fresh right away like most corydalis or aconitum you have little chance of germination...
I had great success with herbaceous clems/ crispa, viorna, fremontii, pitcheri, fusca, addissonii/ using GA-3 excellent germination in few weeks... am not sure if same will work for large flowered hybrids but do not see why not...
sometimes it is patience, sometimes finding right method or right company which cares about germination by proper storage- can't say good enough words about Garden North seeds... most time it is just seed that was meant to germinate with or without my help... ;)

They all germinated for me at one point in time, I just can't get them to thrive.

Will have to look into the variegated form of KMOTGG if it truly doesn't attract japanese beetles. That would be a big plus.

Linda how have the seedlings of your clematis treated with GA-3 worked out long term? The trick with GA of any type is that if you use too strong a solution and/or to long a soaking, the seeds do germinate sooner, but you can also get seedlings that develop mutated growth and quite often die. I would be curious to know your regime for treating the types of clematis you mentioned? Concentration, soak time, seed coat removed, etc. Also, what do you mean by germination since most of the viorna type seeds will put a root out in short order but not put top growth out until much later and often not until after they are exposed to cold. Most herbaceous clematis including the integrifolias, tanguticas, stans, heracleifolias, etc. will germinate in a few weeks without using any GA.

I prepare only 500 ppm solution and use it overnight on some seeds, including clems. Heracleifolias, integrifolia and tubulosa did germinated in about 4 weeks with no added help at warm/ baggie method/. Rest of the seeds/ pitcheri, glaucophylla, fremontii, fusca, adissonii,viorna, texensis/ were treated overnight with GA-3, some I removed coats, some not. Did not see much difference anyway. I kept them all in the baggies and once I see root germination I planted them in the pots. Some sent leaves up and viorna as you mentioned just stays put. Once we over worst colds I will put them in protected sunporch/my greenhouse alternative/ to get cool period, hopefully it will be enough to jump start leaf production.
Out of those many seeds you have sent me I had more than half germinated by now and they still keep going so I shall have good amount of seedlings come spring.

hate to tell you, but take it from one who knows. japanese beetles love variegated kiss me about as much as the green-leaved form (at least in my garden they do).

Himalayan Blue Poppies are on strike 2... I got some to germinate last year but they and the larkspur fizzled out at about 1 inch tall. Oh, and tomatoes grew but never fruited for me. They are on strike 2 for me this year too.

Lois in PA

I have ws thalictrum several times with no special treatment and had good germination each time.

I also had great results winter sowing lupines, but shortly after they hit the garden they died out. The looked so good and healthy before they were planted too.

Lady in Red Salvia did really good but Yvonne's stayed about two inches the whole season in the garden. I'm going to try again though.

If you can't get the buddleia to grow by seed just do cuttings. I have grown several from cuttings with a little rootone on the ends.

I'm glad I read this post...I now know not to cover a few seeds that I probably would have. :-)

Rats, there goes the idea of the variegated KMOTGG as being Japanese beetle resistant.

Direct sow larkspur in the fall where you want the flowers and they will come up with no problems. Always has worked for me.

I generally don't cover seeds I am starting in pots. Just tamp them down firmly in moist potting mix and they will germinate. The only downside is that some plants need to be buried or they won't sprout but I think there are far fewer of those types than those that can germinate with light.

Congrats on the germinations of the clematis seed I sent Linda. Hopefully the amount of GA and soak period won't affect them in the long run. I have heard stories of others using GA and everything came up well but then became distorted and they aborted themselves at some point in the growing process.

The stans you sent me are up and growing well. Have a ton of integrifolia the species seedlings and other integrifolias up. I had quite a few germinations on addisonii and potted them up but with no top growth evident yet. I am experimenting and just leaving a few of the root germinated seeds in the baggies with vermiculite until they get top growth before planting into soil mix. Some of the glaucophylla have sprouted roots but only one has any top growth. All my seeds and plants are in the garage and with the colder weather we have had this year, they should be getting all the cold treatment they will ever need.

I wintersowed the geranium seed you sent (at least I think it was you), as well as the campanula like seeds you sent.

I don't do anything special to thalictrums either to get them to germinate.

In the 3(maybe 4)yrs I've grown VKMOTGG,I've only had a tiny bit of problem with something poking a very few holes in the leaves.

I have so-so luck with clematis...except sweet autumn it's almost as bad as kudzu around here.

Speaking of propagting buddleia from cuttings. There where I have trouble. I can't get cuttings to take. I bought buddleia Evil Ways from PDN last year and I'd like to do some cuttings.It's a gold leaf variety and I'm not sure if it'd come true from seed Please tell me how ...or maybe it's "when" you do your cuttings.

Peggy

Nicksville, my containers (all 10 of them so far) are in the garage too. It has been the perfect refrigerator temperature in there for weeks. These seeds like Ceanothus americana (New Jersey tea - it's a small shrub) actually need 60+ days of cold stratification, and they are getting it, whereas they'd be a frozen solid brick if they were outside.

Many seeds that people WS do not HAVE to be winter-sown - they can be sown in later winter or Spring because they do not require cold stratification. I am doing germination tests on several types of seeds collected in the garden. 2 species of Monarda, Yvonne's Salvia, Salvia 'Coral Nymph' and 2 out of 3 types of Asters have sprouted abundantly without cold strat (Not sure about New England Aster yet).

Someone mentioned Pea/bean inoculant - a few seeds from Prairie Moon nursery came with a little packet of it. This included Baptisia australis & Baptisia leucantha (white Baptisia). However they were susceptible to some sort of wilt after they sprouted (perhaps damping off?). Despite the wilt, I still ended up with 3 healthy 6-8" seedslings of each - which pretty quickly got munched by rabbits when planted out back. Oh well, it was early fall, I'm hoping their root system was strong enough and they'll come back this Spring.

I ordered some seeds from Prairie Moon last year. I used a bit of the inoculant on some purple and white prairie clover seeds(from another company that didn't include inoculant) that I had very low germination rate on. The seed I treated popped up about 80%.

Baptisias I just soak in hot water for 12-24 hrs(changing water once or twice)before planting.

You never stop learning if your a gardener.

Peggy

I think if I try something and say never again, its because

1. I find out the plant is ugly
2. I find out the plant won't perform well in my yard
3. Found something else I like better that acts better

Lisanthus. That fit the description for me.
I failed with them for the third time, found a plant of it cheap at a nursery and decided to try it out. Hated it. None of the scent they said it was supposed to have, was whiney and reluctant performer in the ground.
That was all it took for me to say, "don't let the door hit your a** on the way out.

(Of course, if I move to Atlanta or Houston, I will be trying it again...lol)

But I am a hardheaded woman. I don't give up easy. I take non-germination as a challenge, sometimes. "I will find out what you like, little seed, and you WILL sprout for me!" -- give me a pair of black and white striped stockings--lol

Linda

Crap, you guys are making me nervous. I have a bunch of the flowers y'all mentioned wsing right now. Please cross your fingers for my coneflowers, 4 o'clocks and anything else I have outside.

Bells of Ireland
Eryngium (many species)
Primula Vialli

These are the bane of my existence. Bells of Ireland rarely sprout and then do miserable if they do. But the eryngium is ever elusive. It never seems to want to sprout at all for me. And I have tried winter, summer, spring and fall sowing. This will be my final year attempting to winter sow. The primulas, pray for them.

~Valiche

No soaking is required for baptisia for me. Just toss them out in the fall and they will germinate in the spring.

Terrene, I do have some traditional WS pots outside in the cold but the clematis I germinate I do so in baggies in vermiculite in the garage. Some clematis need or at least benefit from cold treatment, while others do not. In fact, I could probably get more germinations if I were to bring the baggies that have been in the garage since November into the house, but how many seedlings of any one clematis do I need when I already have over 130 in my garden already! LOL Last year, I had to give away so many seedlings of several clematis I started from seed, that I thought about taking them to the farmer's market to sell.

Valiche
primula vialii germinates under 1 week at warm room temps, one of the easiest to germinate from primulas. I had it germinated from multiple sources multiple times and would not do WS with them- no need.
NcKvilledudes
I hear you about taking clem seedlings to the market... luckily I host my plant swap late May so usually manage to give away all my extra seedlings- when it rains it pours... I kept finding clem tangutica for 3 years after I took plant out in every crevice of my stone bed- can't grow it as it needs full sun- the one I gave to my neighbor is threatening to overtake her entire fence and is stunner in the right place...
I also to my deep regret learned early on that not every seed variety will like GA-3 so had few seeds growing elongated, it usually happens right away and noticeable, did not happen with any clem yet so at the worst they do not do anything and at the best I will be swamped with clem seedlings come spring... initially I separated each in 3 in pot and now I keep jamming them together as space is premium LOL

Clematis has not sprouted for me, as well as a certain Green Apples columbine. The year before last I even failed at poppies - poppies!!! I know, I know. . .
Last year I had success and now I love them. Some things I have trouble with after planting out, from insect or critter damage and subsequent death to the seedlings. Others simply do not sprout for me. But I recycle all my container soil, so occasionally I find some pleasant surprises in my garden, when the seeds FINALLY decide to grow! LOL