Thanks Kim for that fantastic answer. I'm glad to hear the roses should survive the buzz cut. Also thanks on the Spinosad recommendation as I hadn't heard of it but it sounds exactly like what I need. For anyone else reading, I was mistaken that BT would work on these bugs as they may be sawfly larvae and BT only works on true caterpillars.

If/when you get around to looking for replacement roses, you might want to look up "Earth Kind" roses on the internet, and see if any have been identified for your area. These are roses, both new and very old, which have been rigorously tested for years with no spraying whatever. The ones that survive with very little diseases are put on the list. If you find such a list, then you can look on "help me find" to see pictures and descriptions of the roses so you will know about colors, size, etc.

Of course, the list needs to be different for every climate area, and I don't know if they have done this testing in So Cal yet.

Jackie

I found this list of disease free roses on the Marin Rose Society web site.

Here is a link that might be useful: Recommend roses for Marin CA

Jackie -- Earthkind isn't going to help with her problems. In fact, I tend to avoid anything on the Earthkind list, because they mainly indicate resistance to BLACKSPOT, but far too many of them mildew or rust, here.

Ventura County Rose Society offers a list of 100 disease-resistant roses selected for Southern California.
That should be a good starting point.

VCRS actively discourages use of sprays, and their C.R.'s may be able to offer other suggestions

I have to say -- we have not sprayed for 15 or so years. We rarely see rust, mostly because anything that rusts on new foliage doesn't stay here very long.

Jeri

Isn't it interesting how they perform so differently from one place to the next? Marin lists French Lace as resistant. My experience with it all over Malibu, the Palisades and West LA was that it rusted like an old nail. Did it in Santa Clarita and San Marino (The Huntington Library), too.

I know Mlle Cecile Brunner is highly disease resistant in all of those areas, but isn't an HT. Gartendirektor Otto Linne, Penelope, Erfurt, Veilchenblau (once flowering), Mrs. Oakley Fisher had mildewed new growth about on the par with Iceberg. Not disparaging them, stating experience with them in a coastal climate so informed choices can be made. Clair Matin, Sally Holmes, Belle Story, Graham Thomas were all rather susceptible to black spot there.

No rose is impervious to disease. This list is a decent one, with a few exceptions. A few degrees hotter than what Marin experiences can skew the results greatly, either way.

Personally, I prefer more landscape types over HT cutting flowers, not only for their landscape value but ease of care, but a few HTs which sold well when I worked there and offered a higher than usual resistance to problems were Memorial Day, Neptune, Billy Graham (though most customers didn't care for the name), Lasting Love, Lime Sublime, Pretty Lady and Home and Family. I'm sure there are others more recently introduced which may work equally well or even better. Of course, your mileage will vary, depending upon the exact micro climate you're dealing with. As I indicated, a few degrees higher or lower can significantly alter your experience. Kim

Kim, French Lace was clean here in Camarillo. Sally Holmes has been exceptionally clean here, for a long, long time.

OTOH, Graham Thomas mildewed on new growth which annoyed me.

The Dark Lady -- That's an interesting one.
It seems to rust in late Fall on very old leaves, and can be touched lightly by blackspot in bad conditions. But it recovers quickly, builds new foliage, and blooms generously. And it's every bit as good in a vase as any ol' Hybrid Tea Rose.

Of the HTs, we found Secret to be clean, and Gardens Of The World, of course. Also Pristine, and I gather that Diana POW is clean here. So, they tell me, is Julia Child (a Florrie?).
And, to my delight (and thanks to Karl Bapst) it appears that 'Happy Butt' is going to be a generous bloomer, and completely clean.

If one wants REAL clean HT's, how about the old ones: 'Radiance,' and 'Red Radiance.' Now, THAT is CLEAN.

Jeri

Good suggestion, Jeri, about the Radiance clan. Excellent roses, period! Though not "classic HT form", but excellent plants. Is there any wonder breeders tried for years to put other colored flowers on THOSE plants?

I've always loved Secret and grow the white sport of it, Secret's Out. Gardens of the World is rusting a little here right now, but it's more of an annoyance to the plant rather than an "infection". Otherwise, bullet proof and flowers like a WEED! It was planted when it first came out and receives sun from about 10 AM until it sets, smack against the block foundation and stucco wall of the house. It has almost never been pruned and has dozens of spent, open flowers and forming buds on it. I leave it alone because it is HAPPY and I don't want to jinx it! Kim

I just came in from finishing up doing exactly what Kim suggested to quite a few of the roses in one of my beds. I had never seen rose rust in my garden since beginning my rose garden in Eastern Ontario 9 years ago. The references on the web say it is rarely seen East of the Rockies. Well it is here now!!!

We have had a cool wet spring. We had an Easterly flow off of the Atlantic for almost two weeks with rain, mist, fog and temperatures in the mid 60's. Apparently that is rust weather according to my research. In fact the weather was exactly like a wet spring in Vancouver or Seattle. Fortunately it is now much drier and warmer, so that might help.

I first saw rust on my plant of Heritage late last fall in October. It then spread to a couple of other varieties, but I have to cut my roses back to less than a foot and I defoiate them completely before covering them with straw for the winter. I cleaned the beds well, but suspect my mistake was not spraying them and the soil around them with dormant oil before covering, or again this spring when I uncovered them.

Any way two or three days ago I was wandering around the yard and saw that St. Cecilia was looking sad and ragged. A closer examination showed rust, and then I looked at the rest of the seventeen roses in the bed and found six or seven others infected including the Heritage rose, The Reeve, Charles Darwin, Evelyn and the Floribunda Octavia Hill. Absolutely clean were Geoff Hamilton, Jayne Austin, Caramella Fairy Tale and Pearlie Mae.

To top it off, I had moved two of the roses from the infected bed to other beds earlier this spring. Sure enough, both of those roses were infected. So I did just what Kim suggested, picked every infected leag off of every plant.

I had sprayed the infected roses with Funginex the day I first found the infection. But then I read the label and it did not indicate that it is usefull to treat rust. The web however recomends it for rust. So I went and bought some Safer's Defender which contains 12% Sulfur and is recommended for rust. I had finished picking the infected leaves in the first bed last night and sprayed it thouroughly with Defender. I had left the top leaves, the new ones that were clean. This morning all of the roses are looking much better, like they are recovering from a bad illness. So I am hopefull that I have the problem under control now.

I don't ordinarily spray my roses even if there is a little black spot. My plants are all survivor vrieties that have proven pretty resistant to blackspot, mildew and blight. But now I have rust and its a whole new ball game. Hopefully the roses will recover well, I will continue to spray over the summer. This fall they will get a dormant oil sulphur spray and again in the spring. My aim is to eradicate the spores in the bed. Because there are very few other people growing roses nearby I am hopefull I can eradicate the rust by next spring.

Cheers, Rick

If it makes you feel any better, Rick, WE got blackspot this strange, cool, constantly-wet spring.
And blackspot is as unusual for us, as rust is for you.

BAD Spring! BAD, BAD Spring!
Go LIE DOWN! I'm going to concentrate on Summer.

Jeri

Rick, watch the sulfur. If it's hot enough for rust, it's probably hot enough for the sulfur to burn your foliage. Kim

Kim-- I had ten years' experience spraying or dusting sulfur on roses with summer high temperatures usually 80-85, but occasionally low 90s. Episodes of burning were not caused by the higher temperatures, but by the gardener's dopey mistakes. These were:

1. Spraying sulfur when the roses were not well hydrated. Specifically, when I first planted boxed roses, I didn't understand how much more often they needed watering, compared to new bare-root roses.

2. Combining with other materials. These included glycol-based spreader-sticker (do use soap instead), Wilt Pruf antitranspirant (a failed experiment to make sulfur stick longer), and insecticidal oil spray (applied within 2-3 weeks before or after sulfur).

I don't know how well it works for rust, but I wouldn't hesitate to apply sulfur to well-hydrated normal roses in the morning even if temperatures will rise to around 90.

BTW, I've seen rust once here in Western North Carolina, a garden just full of it during the first flush, at higher altitude during a cool, foggy spring.

Hey, Rick!

I have had rust in the past on a few rose bushes like ZD and waited till winter, then pruned them to the ground. The fungii overwinter on the canes. I eliminated them.

By the way, the Compassion you sent me years ago is doing well here in London, not really a climber, more like a HT with long canes. The blooms are devine.

Steve

Michael -- Rust is a big problem here in SoCal -- on roses that are susceptible.

There are those roses that rust in late Fall, on old foliage. That's one thing -- but the ones that rust regularly on new foliage? There are only two ways to deal with those, in this climate:

1. Spray them religiously.
Probably with a rotating armament of chemicals.

2. Remove them.
It's the easiest and healthiest way to go. There will always be another rose to fill that niche.

Jeri

Nah, I'm not a shovel pruner.
I'm going out to de-leaf Norwich Castle.

Throwing away beautiful roses because they get sick seems ....can't find a word that works, but it's just not my style.

Susan

Just wait, Susan. You will reach the point that the beauty of the offending rose will be severely marred by the extra care and effort it requires to perform as desired. When you compare the unhappy-in-your-environment diseased one with one which does its thing without so much intervention on your part, you'll be surprised how much more beautiful the happy one will be. Kim

You are probably right, Kim, and maybe I even look forward to that day. For now and for me it still feels like a personal failure when I can't make a rose look its best, and I resist the temptation to quit. Also, so far, all of my roses have shown that their bad/worst behaviors tend to be cyclical: e.g. black spot gives way to no black spot if I am just patient enough to let the season have its way. If I started shoveling out every rose that has a bad day/week, I'd lose more than I can bear to consider (for now....) Interestingly enough this year has been both as good and the worst of any I have encountered so far. It's like being on a see-saw, so the idea of deleting a rose during a bad phase just feels like it would rob me of the euphoria I experience when it recovers or shines....again even if only briefly.

On the other hand, rust has never been quite so virulent here until this year, so the tide just may turn sooner rather than later.

Susan

I agree. I am in Orange County In Southern California. I have never seen rust and black spot like this! I mean, I have never had the disease until this year!! I have seen it on a few leaves here and there and I have upwards of 35 rose bushes. Then this spring and BOOM! The rust is jumping from one bush to the next! The rust started on the "MR. Lincoln" and is now on the bush next to it. The black spot is on the "Double Delight" like mad. I have never seen anything like this! These two rose bushes have to be at least 20-25 years old and I have never seen it so bad.

I am HAPPY to shovel-prune any rose that cannot grow where I live without a chemical arsenal.

I'm not going to use chemical sprays.
It's bad for the bees here, bad for my dogs, and bad for me.

I know I can have a spray-free rose garden here with minimal disease and some color throughout the year, because I am doing so.

Jeri

Jeri,

Do you have any non chemical ideas for limiting rust? Other than the shovel. We have an issue in the entire garden with fungi from the decades of overgrowth. I did not get everything pruned up enough to dormant oil/sulfur spray the orchard. So I have every confidence the rust magnet roses will get it. So far our Don Juan/Dr Huey is getting it and I am busy picking leaves like mad. Mom loves that rose so no chance on the shovel...

I am not a fan of spraying! But it would be nice to get some non rotten from the inside out fruit. Next year...

Rust has never been an issue for me in Ohio until this year. It seems like more than a few roses are being effected by rust and I think Queen of Sweden has the worst case. It's rather bizarre as rust is never an issue here, but this spring was a bit wacky so who knows.

Exactly. Rust has never been an issue here with these roses either. So I dont know what Jerijen is talking about. Besides. Chemicals, or preferably and organic method, either way FUNGICIDES dont kill bees! And there are many organic methods of spraying that wont hurt animals or humans. And Im not going to uproot my grandmothers roses that she planted when AND BEFORE I was born because of one bad season for rust.

If you "shovel prune" so easily and on a whim. Maybe you shouldnt be in the gardening game? Some battles cannot be one so easy but I guess some people take the easy way out? Not me. One season out of THIRTY is not going to cause me to throw in the towel and dig up my roses. Are you serious jeri...lol

So jerijen. How do you have a "chemical free" and colorful disease free garden at your house?? By "shovel pruning" at any sign or disease or pests?? Lol...I have been having thirty years of good growing until this year. So please, instead of complaining of the evils of "spraying" could you please enlighten us with you methods? Im sure we would all like to know how to have a pest and disease free garden without spraying. And when it finally hits you jeri, I would like to see you combat the problem without your "shovel". So please tell us your methods so we can all have a pest and disease free garden without the evil spraying..lol

Well, I don't like to get rid of plants on whims either and I would never dig up a healthy plant because I was not keen on the colour or lack of scent....but, a persistently diseased plant is going to have to go. I have a lot of tolerance for foibles and will always allow a plant time to mature and grow to its peak before reaching a decision but sometimes, you just have to concede defeat and go and get the spade. Its not like we only have a tiny little choice and although I love my plants, many of which I have grown from seed, they are not my 'babies'. Prevention is always the better option and if it does mean early removal, then so be it. And if the worst happened, that it became impossible to grow ANY roses, then it would not be much of a stretch to move onto lilies, paeonies, deutzias, begonias (well, no, probably not begonias) but you get the drift. In the UK, we are already very limited in what chemical s we are allowed to use and it would be a good idea to at least attempt to weed out the needier plants since the days of reaching for the sprayer are, i hope, coming to an end (although I am incredulous at the speed with which so-called biological treatments have been embraced...there is only one way that battle is going to go, leading to harlequin ladybirds and predators with no natural enemies). In truth, there are NO plants which I crave enough to endanger my family, my pets and my environment. Sure, it sounds trite, but you just cannot always have what you want.

Hydrogen peroxide is a chemical that plants produce to defend themselves against fungus attacks. The northwest fuchsia society recommends hydrogen peroxide for rust on fuchsias.

----------------------------------------------

"For fungus problems like rust, botrytis, gray mold-

HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, 3 %, use full strength.

(NOTE: A higher concentration than 3% may harm the plant.)

Keep it in its brown bottle and add the sprayer to it.

Spray it on leaves and stems.

Make sure the plants are well-ventilated around the leaves and in the soil."

Here is a link that might be useful: northwest fuchsia society

So jerijen. So please tell us your methods so we can all have a pest and disease free garden without the evil spraying..lol

*** I was very serious.
No, I don't shovel prune a rose at the first sign of disease.
I'm sure you were joking, right?

The answer is very simple.
If you select roses that grow clean in your environment without spray, you won't need to spray.

Jeri

I should have added to my hydrogen peroxide post that I do not recommend spraying hydrogen peroxide without eye and lung protection.

If I were to use it, I would brush it on infected leaves.

Blazeaglory - in my No Cal garden, this has been the worst year for rust that I can remember. I agree that roses are getting it which have not in prior years - I attribute this to the very weird weather we have been having since last Fall. The best advice I know of is what Kim said in this thread above, on June 3, 2011. Of course, this does not involve shovel pruning any rose that shows a sign of disease!

However, I would also like to comment that Jeri (who is one of the most responsive, knowledgeable, helpful, always goes out of her way to help folks, kindest, people we are privileged to have on this forum) is correct, as usual. In my garden ALL of the roses that got rust in this most rusty of years are hybrid teas, large flowered climbers, and other modern roses. I have over 100 roses, which include lots & lots of teas and chinas and noisettes and hybrid musks, and hybrid giganticas, and polyanthas and old ramblers and banksaies. NOT ONE of any of those classes of roses have even one dot of rust - nadda, zippo.

I personally tolerate some rust (don't mean I ignore it - just that I don't pull out the bushes) on the others because, like you, I have some heritage roses in my garden that we inherited from ancestors, and I am keeping them, no matter what horrible things they do. Most years it is not too bad.

If I really did not want any rust, I would get rid of the rust buckets. 80% of my roses have none, as I said above. Jeri is right - if you figure out which roses will grow in your exact conditions, you can have beautiful, healthy bushes that bloom for 9 months of the year (at least, in my climate) without spraying. If you, like me, insist on growing some that do rust, you have to deal with it.

Jackie

In more than five years of gardening here, and decades of gardening nearby in similar conditions, I've never encountered the rust, blackspot and mildew I'm seeing this spring. I'm not talking about hybrid teas because I have none except extremely old ones from the early 1900's, but chinas (Mutabilis is a rust bucket), Bourbons (never before in my dry climate), Austins, polyanthas and teas. I'm not planning on any kind of intervention (can you imagine removing thousands of rusty leaves from Mutabilis?) except to wait for warmer, drier weather, mulch and water well, and wait for the old leaves to fall. If the problems persists for another year or two the worst offenders will have to go. This is an atypical spring but I have a feeling with climate change atypical weather will become the norm. I will never spray so the healthy plants will stay and the diseased ones will go. I'm going to give them a good long while to get better but not forever. With the older rose varieties there's also a chance they will outgrow most of their problems with greater maturity and that I'm willing to wait for. I know that Jeri also has quite a few roses (most of which are older types) that have improved after three or four years and she certainly does not toss roses out at the first sign of disease.

Ingrid

Yes, you have to realize that sometimes that you need to ignore the spots on the leaves. For instance, lots of stuff got diseased after that freak October snowstorm last year that took out tons of maple trees. Sure, the leaves were diseased, but they were going to fall off in a few weeks anyway. Those plants are doing fine today.

I would just like to say that I've been following Jeri's advice and selectively removing the roses that are disease prone from my garden, I think it is much more beautiful this year than it was last year. Whether or not fungicides have been shown to harm bees, I don't want to use any sort of spray and I would much rather remove an unhealthy plant than resort to 'chemical warfare.'

I also think that most of us who are in the 'shovel prune instead of spray' bandwagon don't remove roses at the first sign of disease, but only after they have proven themselves to be weak and unsuitable for our climate.

I'm trying to take everyones advice on rust in this and other posts, and make a plan for this year. I never saw rust prior to this year. This year there is quite a bit - mostly in one bed where I clearly chose to put my roses too close together. All the roses there so far have been rust free, until this year. I removed as many rust covered leaves as I felt I could, then "gave up". Too many. In general, the bushes remain very healthy (looking anyway). My choice for this year - head in the sand. I'm lookin the other way. I don't have the energy to spray. I'm not pulling anything out until I have evidence other than this crazy weather year, that a particular rose is more disease resistent than others. In the future, I will leave more room between the roses (in this particular bed, I just got really carried away, so about 10 roses all within 2 1/2 feet between one another). Really not good idea. Perhaps my first change will be to move a few during winter to give more space. Anyways - hoping our hot dry summer will do its disease killing thing! (p.s. no beating up on Jeri allowed!)