Not ISA certified, are they?

I'm sure they want to know about this. Unacceptable to professionals.

Dan

That was down right horrible. I definitely feel for you but this is the reason why trees need to be trained and have issues such as those above fixed while young and before they turn into real problems.

>Not ISA certified, are they?

Their ad in the yellow pages has the logo, and the first guy said all his workers are certified.

Find out who the owner is and present your case to them. If they turn out to be indifferent or ineffective - either could explain the behavior of the guy who blew off the original proposal, executed the work as though having almost no training at all - then it seems you are left with seeking relief by bringing in a third party.

Congratulations! You have figured out one of the major reasons 'Valley Forge' has failed to really catch on in the trade. The poor form is inherent with this cultivar....Your tree service did a poor job of course, but this cultivar is well known for this problem.

Salix has the pertinent point, that early structural pruning - starting in many cases the next year after planting - is almost required for this particular plant.

Nonetheless, no excuse for that work. I trust the owner wants to know. If not, take these and more pix, and the state ISA chapter want to know.

Dan

>early structural pruning - starting in many cases the next year after planting -
>is almost required for this particular plant.

I did the structural pruning myself until I ran out of stepladder (this was the first "professional" pruning) ...the crotch in the picture is ~15 feet above the ground, and I just couldn't reach it safely. Unfortunately I let it go for a couple seasons too long before I called a tree service. Valley Forge certainly is a bear to manage. I planted a Princeton in the summer of '08, and I can tell it's going to be much easier to work with.

I got an email back from the guy who did the consultation...he's not happy with the work, and will call tomorrow.

Alex

Stubs are the first sign of an amateur.

Alex - wow. That's a lot of pruning. I'm glad your guy seems to be on top of it. Let us know the outcome.

Dan

I am not sure I understand what the problem was with the growth of this tree. Did you take a picture of it before the work began?

American elms don't grow with a central leader. It is natural for the trunk to divide at some point--maybe from 10 to 20 or so feet up--into several ascending limbs--developing into a vase shape as it grows larger. Elms don't split at narow "V" shaped crotches like many other kinds of trees may.

Again, I don't see a picture of the starting point here, but if the tree service did anything wrong, it would seem that they may have tried to "fix" a tree that didn't need any fixing. They should have told you that.

--spruce

Spruce,

Are you saying that the crotch (with 4 leaders emerging from the same point) in the picture above was not a problem? I'm familiar with the mature form of elms, at least in the context of cultivation, but don't recall seeing one with 4 leaders emerging from the same point like that. In any case, Valley Forge does have a reputation for being prone to splitting if early training/corrective pruning is not done.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful:

You're past the point of early with this tree.

Alex, waaaay too many branch attachments at one place in that one pic. I'd have taken another one too.

Dan

bboy, I don't know what the point of your comment is. I know it's a problem, I know I should have addressed it earlier, but this is the situation. If you have a constructive suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

Dan, what would you recommend doing at this point? The man who gave me the original consultation is coming out Tuesday morning to salvage this. I liked the original idea of cutting off one along with subordination pruning of two others, but that's not really an option now, unless we use a coping saw to cut the stub out, going from crotch to crotch. If I then took off the leftmost leader, I'd be left with two leaders that have a wound between them.

Thanks for any suggestions,

Alex

Here's a quick photoshop of what I was trying to describe:

{{gwi:362008}}

Good idea or bad? I don't really know how well the cut on the right (to remove the stub) would grow over.

Alex

Same procedures that might have produced good results when tree was young and small not necessarily likely to be successful now, with tree at this stage of development.

I see, sorry if I sounded snotty.

Here are some more pictures that give a better idea of where the problem spot is:
This is the tree before the pruning, with an arrow showing where the problem spot is:
{{gwi:362009}}

Here is the tree after pruning:
{{gwi:362010}}

Here is a different view of the quadruple leader after the pruning job:
{{gwi:362011}}

Seems to me that while this not usually normal practice, your level of concern about properly training this tree, would have suggested to the initial consultant that he should mark on the branches where and at what angles the intial cuts should be later made by the person who actually did the pruning. In addition he should have been able to diagram those details for you on paper.

Then, at least before the damage was done, you could have expressed your concerns and you could have expressed more specifically what you were consenting to concerning how and where the tree would be cut.

After looking at the before and after pictures the tree does look better. It doesn't seem to lean as much. I understand your concern though. I'm no expert on tree's at all except I love nice trees, and your Elm is just that.

I may have to buy one. Good luck with your problem and give the guy who owns the company a chance to fix it. I'm sure he'll make it right.

Alex, those white lines are what I'd do at this point as well. This is an excellent learning experience for the arborist, allow him to work it out with his/her crew. If they don't, the state ISA wants to know.

Dan

I must admit I know little or nothing about this specific DED resistant American Elm cultivar. I am growing two Princeton elms, two "Liberty" elms and one natural volunteer (there seem to be some possibly DED resistant elms nearby--large and not hit by the disease yet (and not growing where there is any possibility of them having any treatment for DED)--so I have hopes for this one also. The so called Liberty elms involve, I think, five cultivars, so I have just two and I am not sure which they are. They are distinctly different from each other, however.

If one of my elms grew in the pattern yours did, I definitely would not have considered any pruning. The only pruning I have done is to prune off some single lower side limbs. On the volunteer, an especially vigorous side limb is growing about 4 feet from the ground, and because it has always shown signs of becoming part of the upper crown, I left it and donÂt think it is likely to split off. It is, in fact, a nice individual feature of this tree.

But once the whole top of the tree starts to divide, whether into two or even four or more upward reaching and arching limbs, I figure that is the way this tree is going to grow, and I leave it alone. My two Liberty elms have started to divide at the top into three ascending limbs. Of course, there is a "middle" one. I would never dream of cutting that center one out. Doing so will create a fork that will be weaker than the original. Nor would I cut off one from either side--that would seem to make the top unbalanced, at least for a while. I like the way the tops of these trees are "flaring out" at this point.

I have been a special lover of elms since I was a little kid. When I was about 9 years old (I am now 71) I dug one up from a field and planted it in our yard. I have been a very careful observer of these trees all my life. Their "forks" tend to be very sturdy and resistant to splitting. But perhaps your cultivar is different--as I say, I have no specific experience with it. But if a storm is strong enough, it can split any tree, and I have seen American elms split--but very, very seldom. Have you ever tried to split American elm logs for firewood?!!

For what its worth, I just looked up American elm in my 1978 edition of Knowing Your Trees (published by AFA). The summer picture is of an especially magnificent specimen. I can't get an absolutely precise count, but this tree divides at basically the same level into 6 or 7 wonderful ascending and arching limbs. This is a large, old tree--no splits yet!

--spruce

Is DED not an issue in your area?

In WI pruning of Elms (DED) and Oaks (wilt) should be avoided during the growing season.

You do NOT prune in May, even if the elm cultivar is consider resistant to DED.

I believe the poster said that the Valley Forge is a DED resistant cultivar.

And though pruning is generally done during the dormant season, you CAN prune during May or any month for that matter so long as your cuts are made properly and not into the branch protection zone. Leaving branch stubs would be fine temporarily but would still have to be removed since they invite a wealth of disease and canker causing organisms and increase the chance of the wound becoming infected.

Sure you can prune at anytime, but key word is "resistant".

The recommended time to prune elms is during the dormant season. No one should be able to argue this point where DED is an issue within a given locale.

whaas,

Your point is well taken, but I think my tree is at low risk in this situation because

1) I have not seen any other elms in my neighborhood (except the Princeton elm on the other side of my driveway!), probably because it was built in the 80's and 90's, when no one was planting elms. Two years ago, the local Home Depot sold 15 or 20 Princeton elms, so they are probably not too far, but those are still small enough that they are not yet hosting elm beetles.

2) My elm is still young, and has not yet developed the thick corrugated bark that the beetles like. It is my understanding that elms are typically not likely to get DED before they are 10 or 15 years old for this reason.

3) It is a "resistant" cultivar.

None of those reasons is a guarantee, but taken together, I think they reduce the risk considerably. In the future, I will have pruning work done in the dormant season, just to play it safe.

Alex

Two men from the company returned today...the man who provided the initial consultation (he did the cutting today) and the guy who botched the job (he just watched today). They came up with the same approach I did, as shown in the photoshopped image above, so that's what they did. In addition, he cleaned up all the stub cuts. This evening, the owner of the company called to make sure I was satisfied with what was done today. So, I think the company handled the situation well.

Thanks for everybody's input,

Alex