"This has been an interesting discussion until it became too hard to read.

Sammy"

I think it must be some kind of setting on your laptop. I have had this problem sometimes too. Do some cleaning, delete history and cookies, temporary files, and thing most likely will return to normal.

Hi Audrey,
If you're only using alfalfa on your roses, please purchase an organic rose food such as Rosetone (or Hollytone) or Mills Magic -- alfalfa is a terrific growth stimulant but your roses will benefit from a complete rose food as well.

I garden no spray in the DC area (about 30 miles south of DC in northern VA). My roses are teas and polys. Spraying fungicide would greatly increase the selection of roses I could grow, but I'm happy no spray for several reasons: the summers are HOT and I'd be up before dawn to spray (you shouldn't spray fungicide in high temps or you may burn the foliage), fungicides and apparatus are expensive (please purchase a respirator if you decide to spray ANYTHING), and its nice to go on summer vacation and return two weeks later to fully foliated, blooming roses. I'm a lazy rosarian and it suits me.

I spray my gardens about as regularly as Patrick does, I admit sometimes more often, like now, with all of the downpours we have been having.

The Texas mosquitos have moved north. They are good sized and have been known to carry off small children.

The JBs have exploded in force. I plan on spraying with Sevin as soon as it stops raining. Whenever I take a walk near my garden my soap bucket is at hand.

When I first got into gardening, my broccoli was inedible, my 10% milk solution left something to be desired as a fungicide. I kept this up for many years. I do not know why I changed. I suppose that one of Henry's blurbs said that we all ate an average of 5lbs of Manzate a year may have swayed my feelings about it. I do dress up in my space suit before spraying.

One thing nice about losing all of our factories to China is that the air quality has improved immensely. I understand that at the Pleather (fake leather) factories in China the rain comes in various colors.

I am glad I can see across the Mudassippi nowdays, and don't have to cough upon entering the "fresh air."

Toodles!

F.L.
IAGL

There are some misconceptions in this thread. I've read that spraying fungicide is expensive. I use one bottle concentrate of the Bayer a season, and it costs $14.99 a bottle, and I have 100 roses. I've read that you need to spray at dawn otherwise the leaves will burn. I do mine about 9am and even in Hotlanta, I've never had a leaf burn.

Again, it's personal preference. To each his own. I just think there is a lot of false information out there.

The following was posted in another thread by someone in northeast Georgia:

"It should be under 80 degrees to spray, but if you do it in the evening when the sun is not shining on the roses, you should be OK."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg0721040526189.html

I am trying to be no spray these days, but I agree with Baford that there is a lot of misinformation presented here. There are different fungicides, some will burn and others will not. Banner Max can be sprayed even when it is 95 deg in the midlle of the day, if the plants were watered before. This is based on my personal experience as well as on the information from my Florida friend who sprays Banner and never had any issues with burned leaves.
Decision to spray or not should be a concious decision of a well informed person. We shouldn't try to scare people from spraying spreading false inforamtion.
Olga

I'm sure that the "someone in northeast Georgia" poster meant that under 80 degrees could be morning or evening, as long as it's away from the butterfly plants and the veggies.

To me, the key concept comes from this part of the quote: "if you do it in the evening when the sun is not shining on the roses, you should be OK."

The "common" rule that I have heard is one should spray early enough in the day so that the roses have time to dry before nightfall. The only reason I can think of to warn that one should spray "when the sun is not shining on the roses" is to avoid leaf burn. The thread that I linked to for the northeast Georgia quote covers the different views of "spraying in the heat".

Rather than using the words "false information", it appears to me that one should simply document that there are several different views or "camps" concerning a specific point. I emphasise "document".

The July 2008 issue of the Atlanta Rose Society stated: "Try to water before spraying to
minimize spray damage. Cover yourself up, and
spray in the cool of the day to protect both you
and your roses."

Sammy, I am having the same issue as you! I have to stretch my window and scroll constantly to read. I tried changing the font side, zooming etc. A friend was using my laptop the other day and I thought maybe she had adjusted something til I read you were having the same issues. It's really a pain. I was using Safari on a macbook pro. When I just now switched to Firefox there was no problem. Since I didn't upgrade Safari in the last couple days and it's what I normally use, I wonder if Garden Web changed some format that is unfriendly to Safari...

Well henry, at 9am it is usually under 80 degrees even here in Hotlanta. Maybe other places it is hotter. I have no idea. Today it is going to be very hot, 95. But right now it's 70. But I think it's the sunshine that's more important in leaf burn, not the temperature. But I've never had leaf burn. Not with Daconil or the Bayer. So I don't think it's an issue if you spray in the AM or just not in the middle of the day. Saying spraying is bad because you will burn the leaves isn't accurate. If you don't want to spray, just don't spray. There is no reason to give any reason.

The fact that you went and dug up one of my posts from 2007 is just a bit spooky henry. But I was responding to someone who asked if it's ok to spray in the evening. I've never done it. And I think spraying fungicide is different than watering at night. Which is not recommended because it will not dry off and can result in blackspot or powdery mildew.

It is a good thread to read, though. Micheal as usual gives a lot of good accurate information. And he bring up a great point that a lot of people fret unnecessarily so about spraying and leaf burn.

Sorry, Henry, poor wording on my side. Instead of "false information", I probably should say controversial information. But anyway this is not the point. The point is, you decided to grow your roses no spray not beacuse spray can burn your leaves, or spray is expensive, but because you did some research and reading and decided that for you cons are more important then pros. The same with me. No need to add potentially controversial points to this discussion.
Olga

Huttnem, this is the only thread that is giving me a problem. I don't want to mess with the settings, but it is a real pain to read this thread.

Does anyone else have a problem?

I can read about 1/2 vertically, then must scroll at the bottom to read the other half.

There was a time that a big picture created this problem, but we have no big pictures.

Sammy

sammy I have to go to view zoom 75 % to read the full post, and with my old eyes that is not easy.

Buford, I save "important threads" in subcatagories. I used to have a very large collection of rose related printed material but we are downsizing in our old age so they were all donated to other rosarians. Most of the time I do not miss them as a digital library and a "search" function is so much more efficient.

Olga, often a person posts based on their experience. How are they to know if someone else has had a different experience? That is one of the purposes of a forum. As I have attempted to document some, even the Altanta Rose Society, feels that leaf burn is a valid point.

The original quote which was challenged is: "..., but I'm happy no spray for several reasons: the summers are HOT and I'd be up before dawn to spray (you shouldn't spray fungicide in high temps or you may burn the foliage),". Notice the use of the word "may" and "high temperature". If you look at at labels of spray bottles, often there will be a warning about not spraying at high temperature. Robert B. Martin Jr. gives similar spray advice in his article "How to Spray Roses to prevent Insects and Diseases": "Do not spray when it is too hot......." http://scvrs.homestead.com/SprayRoses.html

Yah it's wide here too

It's one of the neverending links. The browser doesn't know how to hyphenate the 'word', so keeps it all on one, very long, line.

yes, it is a sod isn't it - especially since there are some interesting comments on this thread.

Buford, I don't appreciate the personal attack. The OP asked for opinions and I gave mine based on my experience. Henry, you are a gentleman and I appreciate your consideration. I'm out of here.

What personal attack? You posted that if you didn't spray very early that the roses would get leaf burn. I was giving my experience, which is different. Henry, if you are looking for experience, you can't beat michael who said in that very same thread that he's never had burn, regardless of temperature.

As far as the posts not wrapping, I was fine at home on Mozilla. Here on IE, it's too wide.

buford? you say she said "would" I already pointed out that she said "may". I then documented that "may" is not misinformation but is consistent with what is often reported elsewhere:

"If you look at at labels of spray bottles, often there will be a warning about not spraying at high temperature. Robert B. Martin Jr. gives similar spray advice in his article "How to Spray Roses to prevent Insects and Diseases": "Do not spray when it is too hot......."

AND in another post:

Rather than using the words "false information", it appears
to me that one should simply document that there are several different views or "camps" concerning a specific point. I emphasise "document".
The July 2008 issue of the Atlanta Rose Society stated: "Try to water before spraying to
minimize spray damage. Cover yourself up, and
spray in the cool of the day to protect both you
and your roses."

-----------------------------------------------

The fact that any individual(s) did not ever notice spray burn is not logically inconsistent with the use of the word "may".

-----------------------------------

Daconil was one of the fungicides named in this thread. This is what was reported in a University of Alabama scientific publication concerning spraying with Dacolin and leaf effects:

"In at least two years, a leaf burn was noted on the DaconilUltrex® (chlorothalonil)-treated roses. Previously, Hagan et al. (9) reported significant chlorothalonil-inducedleaf burn on the hybrid tea Double Delight, as well as Knock Out, First Light, Flower Carpet®, 'Hansa',Happy Trails, Magic Carpet, Mystic Meidiland®, 'Nozomi', and Raven shrub roses (8)."

ALSO:

"The leaf burn associated with the use of this fungicide may be reduced by making applications when leaf temperatures are cooler in the morning or evening."

http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:vgMmUrshCy8J:scholar.google.com/+chlorothalonil+spray+burn+roses&hl=en&as_sdt=100000000000

Cecily,

I hope you are not out of here because of this particular thread alone. It is the hottest topic discussed on the rose forums. I remember when the majority of forumers seemed to be philosophically pro-spray. I lurked then and felt empathy for those in the minority who expressed a counter point of view. One guy was pretty savage in his attacks. Depending on which side you're on, people seem to feel they are being judged by the other side. And that creates defensiveness, frustration and anger. Even if people don't want to be judgemental and try to be diplomatic, strong messages in support of our point of view come across and/or people react to what feels like criticism. I have felt all of the above. We apparently feel strongly about this issue.

I'm confused henry, You have this statement:

"The leaf burn associated with the use of this fungicide may be reduced by making applications when leaf temperatures are cooler in the morning or evening."

When did I ever say anything different? Did I suggest to the poster to spray in the middle of the day?

As michael said in the thread from 2007, the fear of leaf burn is a bit overblown. You can do it in the morning, as I said I go out about 9am and do it down here when it's hot and I've never had a problem. I don't use Daconil anymore, but when I did, I did the same thing.

This board is about information. The most valuable information is direct from other rose growers who have done what you are asking about. I'd hate to have a newcomer read that spraying will cause leaf burn unless you spray extremely early in the am or at night. And then give up having roses because they don't want to do that. I give information based on my experience because it may help someone who is in the same situation as me. That's all I'm here for. To get and give information about roses.

gatormomx2, I disagree with you conclusion about why my weeping yaupon holly is so fruitful this year. By all accounts, that tree should be dead. It is a large tree, and when we first brought her here in burlap, we found the power company hadn't run the power from the road to our property yet. No way to water her.....for over two weeks. I did pour a few jugs of bottled water on her one evening, but that is all. Once she was in the ground, I was too busy to water the poor thing. Luckily, we did get plenty of winter rains in my region. So no, this was not a good year for transplanting this tree, and she suffered much abuse. By all accounts she shouldn't have lived, let alone flowered. I do know that this tree likes Mills Magic Mix.

And yes, I do know that weeping yaupon hollies are hardy Florida natives. I am a member of the Florida native plant society, and have been highly motivated over the past few years to study Florida native plants and trees in depth. I have made friends with foresters and other professionals in the native plant industry, as well as people that had been employed by the state. I love Florida, and I do not like seeing what has been done to our fragile ecosystems.

I'm not here to lecture whether someone wants to spray their roses or not. I don't feel rose growers are the problem in the big picture. The masive developments and their blanket spray services...well, I have an issue with spraying for the sake of spraying, in large volumes, in all these subdivisions. But that is not what this post is about. It's about roses.

Agriculture sometimes dictates that farmers use spay chemicals. I'm not going to make judgement on that either. I like to eat. However, my plan is to grow most of our produce because I want to eat organic foods.

I do like that the native plant society is trying to educate our legislators as well as the public, in a friendly manner.

I will say it again. I live in an area that is not being sprayed. There is a definite, HUGE difference in the activity of insects, birds and such. Not only is it free of damagining chemicals, but there is an abundance of the native plant system in place, so it supports the insects we need, as well as those we don't like, without them having to damage my roses looking for food. I've been gardening (and observing) for a long time, from crops tpo ornamentals. Don't make a blanket statement as though I don't know what I am talking about, and what I am observing. Period.

Sandy

What happened to Audrey, vuwugarden?

Barbara

Regarding the format problem some of us experienced, here's what the webmaster said:
"This will happen when someone posts a link or an image and doesn't properly format the html. It will 'break' the page and cause the spacing to skew. It should be fine now."

My collection of roses has never been sprayed. Only one develops serious spotting, if it were not a wild origin pink form of a basically white species I would take it out and have no major issues.

While many roses are fungus susceptible to the point of becoming markedly less attractive, perhaps even somewhat stunted unless kept coated in chemicals there is a very large total number of kinds of roses - with the result that the percentage of care free ones still makes for more than enough of a selection - for me, in my area anyway.

But I tend to go for wild species, primary hybrids and other types more like other flowering shrubs than are modern bedding roses, which mostly leave me cold even without the disease problems.

I am late for the brawl, but regarding the leaf burn there are so many variables, that sometimes it is difficult to say if something happened from spraying or something else. I have leaf damage on one pear at the moment, which hasn't been sprayed, hasn't been fertilized, and yet it has a leaf burn, probably due to the combination of drought, temperatures rising higher sharply and rain afterwards. I asked somebody with years of experience in fruit tree growing and apparently it is rather common in clay soils.

Also, regarding time of the day for spraying, most of the time in my about 20 years of gardening we sprayed in the evenings. In our climate that made no difference. On the more sensitive plants though even watering in the middle of the hot day can cause some leaf damage, especially with the cold water from the crane.

Also, imho there is a lot of both false and controversial information on the subject on the Internet. You have industry advises, you have all sorts of home&gardening gurus, basic common knowledge and urban legends, also some things are just a fruit of human imagination. Also even in strictly scientific field you often have more than 2 opinions on the matter and only with time some opinions become more established than the others.

Also, forgot to mention another thing, just was reading an article the other day, that currently main polluters of water sources are not the heavy industry anymore (which was forced to install cleaning equipment), but farms (cow, pig, horse, chicken). What comes out of farms often kills a whole water stream, so totally that nothing neither grows neither lives in it anymore.

It is a huge environmental issue with the modern farm complexes, where animals are kept in few stories high buildings, since outgoing crap from such farms does significant damage not only to the rivers, but even to such large water bodies as for example Baltic Sea.

Huttnem, I really appreciate your contacting the webmaster. I know this is a problem with pictures, and thought it might be with links, but did not know that the webmaster would fix it.

If we copy a link that is super long, we ought to space it, and at the end of the link, tell the readers that there are no spaces.

bboy, I agree with your preference. That is mine also. However, when it comes to very beautiful blooms, the modern roses that need spray are very beautiful.

Elemire, around here we have a problem with poultry.

Sammy

See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/15/AR2010061504325.html

Nice link, Henry. I admit I only skimmed it, but I have to agree with their recommendation of Kordes. I have 3 of his Fairy Tale series and all three are BS free. (They do have rose midge,however.)

What the author fails to mention is that as the environment changes, so goes the disease resistance. One of my Fairy Tale roses is a BS disaster in Delaware, another Mid-Atlantic State.

I personally think in our area at least, one must grow fewer varieties of roses to avoid spraying for BS.

I'm still waiting to hear from the originator of this thread.

Barbara

Barbara the "environment changes" you mention may simply be that the rose becomes blackspot susceptible because it is being grown in poor growing conditions. Plants have immune systems ( http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7117/full/nature05286.html Use your "find" command with the keyword "fung" to see where fungus, fungi type words are mentioned") but immune systems generally function best in an otherwise healthy organism. Was the plant over fertilized, grown in too much shade, pruned too often, and/or placed in soil that resembles a chemical dump in composition and therefore deficient of "beneficial soil fungi"?
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060201232838.htm

Audrey, if you're still perusing this thread, I wanted to mention the smaller Bourbons which are uniformly doing very well in my very hot, dry garden. I believe they're quite different in their makeup from Bourbons like MIP which I understand can be quite disease-laden. I have SdlM, SdlM Rouge, Romaggi Plot Bourbon, Appoline, Leveson-Gower, Mme. Cornelissen, Kronprinzessin Viktoria and Mme. Dore and they're uniformly healthy and very floriferous. It's been a joyful discovery for me that the small Bourbons do so well for me here since they're such rewarding plants to grow. They don't take up much room, unlike the monster Bourbons, and put out new buds constantly. Please do give some a try. I don't spray and none of them have needed it, even when quite a few other roses, including teas, have mildewed in our cool and moist spring this year.

Ingrid

Leaf fungi mutate rapidly, the rest of the planting site does not have to change for the susceptibility to change. Also there is supposed to be a link between fungus resistance and soil minerals. I grew 'Complicata' without difficulty for some time, then for a awhile it got rust. Now that I think about it the rust may have since backed off a bit - maybe even disappeared.

Henry, thanks for the link. I have been spraying with Actively Aerated Compost Tea for 3 years now-everything in my garden except the azaleas and some of the trees. I first read about mycorrhizal fungi in a book called "Teaming with Microbes." I purchase my compost kits from KIS, who are somehow linked to the author of "The Soil Food Web". So, yes I believe the soil is the key to all healthy gardens and have been working to get mine healthy. I still have roses that develop BS, mostly not until late summer. This of course changes from year to year depending, I think, on the weather.

In the case of the Kordes rose that was unhealthy in a DE. garden, that person is an active participant here on GW. Only she can tell you of the conditions and environment of her plant. Don't want to mention names, but she call tell you if she wants. I suspect she knows more about growing roses and gardening than I do. The particular cultivar is Floral Fairy Tale and in my garden is planted next to the driveway beneath a monster Folksinger. They could use more distance between them because they appear crowded; however, both are healthy, so, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Now as to the article what is blue light from the sun�s ? My computer changed the original text to these strange characters with question marks. I don't think I can even google that.

Barbara

In a simplistic view, plants can have either/or both horizontal and vertical resistance against disease. A horizontal resistance is considered very effective but has the disadvantage that the fungus can mutate and remove all of the plant's resistance. A plant with vertical resistance is thought to be one with a number of defensive mechanisms. It may not be 100% resistant, but no single mutation is going to "swamp" the plant. The following link is to a rose related discussion of this subject:

http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=24710#24730

Barbara, regarding "blue light", see:

http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/5/948

Some of the modern roses (especially hybrid teas) do have such beautiful blooms, many with wonderful fvragrance. I can't grow many of them here without spraying though, so they have pretty much been eliminated in my garden....sigh. We can't have it all.

However, I have found that many of the old tea roses can hold their own against hybrid teas with beauty of bloom and fragrance. The teas have become my favorite class of roses, and fortunately, I can grow them trouble free here if they are given some reasonably good care.

I think roses will make hips without bees helping the process, but I would have to wager that anything else that produces fruits of some sort need bees for pollination. That even includes good old squash.

My point about my holly tree and her abundance of berries this year is due to the amount of bee action that went on around that tree this year. Flowers do not produce fruits without being pollinated first. She's had adequate abundance of flowers in the past,including the spring before our move. (When she was first brought home from a country nursery some distance from where I lived at the time, she was loaded with berries). Once at home in our subdivision in Ocala, she stopped producing much, despite having male hollies nearby, and going through her bloom period. Our final year there was the worst for the berry production, but our subdivsion had stepped up the sprays because there was a emphasis by the HOA to have perfect lawns. I didn't participate, but my small yard had been affected anyway.

We need the pollinators or we could all end up starving someday. There are "studies" that claim chemicals aren't the issue. After seeing where the "studies" originated from, I'm not surprised at what they are saying. There are plenty of other studies that show otherwise. Sort of like our government downplaying and "mistakenly" underestimating the oil volumes being spewed from the broken wells in the Gulf. The University of Florida did their own study, and the truth came out. It's vast. The fallout from that is going to be horrendous, including lots of sick humans and destroyed properties.

Like I said, I don't feel rose growers in general are the problem. It's the cumultive effects of everything combined....especially large areas that are being treated, such as large subdivision after subdivision, etc.

I shared my original post to strimulate some thought. Just because someone has sprayed their roses doesn't make them "bad". If they continue to spray them doesn't make them "bad" people. However, if my post makes someone evaluate that there may be another way to grow beautiful roses (not necessarily all the types their heart desires) by selecting the right ones for their neck of the woods, and get off the trap of spraying and more spraying, then I feel good about it. Not spraying, or spraying less often, equals less expense, more enjoyment and less chore, safety for both pets and people, and it is good for the environment.

Sandy

Barbara (bbinpa), what type of sprayer do you use for your AACT? I lent my copy of "Teaming with Microbes" to a friend so I can't cite exactly what it says, but I seem to remember that a hose-end sprayer is not recommended. The last time I made some I diluted the mixture in a watering can and it was a bit of a pain. I do remember a post from a grower on this forum some years ago who switched to spraying with AACT and saw a dramatic decrease in disease in his fields - that on top of the improvement to the soil. Are you seeing similar results? Catherine

Opps, I am getting old. I stated the difference between horizontal and vertical resistance backwards.

Corrected statement: A vertical resistance is considered very effective but has the disadvantage that the fungus can mutate and remove all of the plant's resistance. A plant with horizontal resistance is thought to be one with a number of defensive mechanisms. It may not be 100% resistant, but no single mutation is going to "swamp" the plant.

See:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CnzbgZgby60C&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=horizontal+resistance+in+plants+fungus&source=bl&ots=FnGpzk0Mnk&sig=j9_ylRz0lSRB2lFB2YzfqdMx7F8&hl=en&ei=P1waTL2dBsWclgfqyJmvCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=horizontal%20resistance%20in%20plants%20fungus&f=false

Henry, you did it again. You need to break up your links then tell the reader to leave no spaces. Now we must scroll each line to read all the threads in this post.

I don't think you would do this if your computer does what mine does.

When you type in a link that is super long, then it makes some computers like mine real wide. I can read half of the lines in a post then I must use the scroll bar at the bottom to scroll sideways. I have a good monitor, and new enough computer, but this happens with long links or giant pictures.

The only solution I can think of us to go a short distance with the link, leave a space, write more, leave a space, etc. Then write to the reader that he must not leave spaces.

Your friend,
Sammy

The link problem is also a browser problem. I use Firefox at home and there was never a problem. Internet Explorer at work, however, has the problem. Obviously Firefox automatically "fixes" this.

Sorry everyone, I wonder why it did not used to happen. I will try to follow Sammy's suggestion.

Or just put the link, not the typed out URL. Or use tinyurl.

Sandy, I agree. Not everyone has to spray. The old books had everyone spraying fungicide and insecticide every week. Without fail. Now most people don't use insecticides and only some people spray. I've tried to go without spraying (fungicide), trust me. I'd rather not. But I know what will happen. Others don't have the same issues.

A logical part of this discussion (to me) should be: are there effective modern fungicides that could be sprayed safely?

I get the impression that many/most "modern" sprayers are using tebuconazole based sprays. If you are spraying with a tebuconazole based fungicide, you may find the following linked thread of interest:

Sandy, regarding the holy&berries, its usually not only spraying, but a whole set of things in the city environment. Most plants which are not self pollinating, need pollinators. However, in the city environment bees often are exterminated as a pest if the swarm happens to land somewhere by chance, also people tend to destroy bee nests if they find them somewhere in their property, instead of calling a bee keeper so safely remove it. Also usually there are not that many bee keepers close to the city, so no honey bees in flying distance from the city. In the city bumble bees are important pollinator, but again, in the urban gardens they lack habitat and food to really thrive (especially since bumble bees rarely make nest in same location next year). Even those few flowering weeds that somehow manage to appear in the lawns, tend to be herbicided and weeded out fairly quickly. Lawns, paved gardens, flower-less ornamental plants, all of that make any sane bee (or any other nectar feeding insect) to fly the other direction. Nectar feeding insects need continuous supply of it from different plants for the variety of diet, so you have to have something different blooming at any day of the season to really feed them well. In bee opinion wild flower mix seeds for 2$ are way better choice than roses and other fancy, but low on nectar plants for 200$.

Also, in some climates bumble-bees are even more important pollinator, because they fly in more cold and wet conditions than the regular honey bees (or any other pollinator, due to their fur). Hence if you have an orchard and very cold wet weather when your orchard is blooming, you rely solely on bumble bees to pollinate it. Bumble bees in their turn need fallen tree logs, meadows, turfs or even just clumps of dried grass to establish their hives, so heavy cultivation and even tidy rose gardens are not really good for them. Also, many birds and insects like to use second hand nests for themselves, for example bumble bees like to use old mouse nests for their nests, so if the mouse population is exterminated aggressively, that also influences the well being of the bumble bees. It is possible to provide special hives for bumble bees though, but again, not everyone likes a bumble bee hive in their garden.

Catherine, cat insc, I purchased a cheap back pack sprayer this year. Prior to that I was using the Rocket Sprayer, which works great for the synthetic sprays. However, I noticed on the KIS web site that they did not recommend such a spray nozzle for spraying compost tea. I emailed and received a prompt response to my questions. The bottom line is, the extra fine spray from the Rocket Sprayer damages the little critters (micro organisms). Until I could afford a back pack sprayer with the nozzle recommended, I used a simple garden pitcher, the kind with a sprinkler attached. I doused my roses with the compost tea. Now with a back pack sprayer, I can spray the whole garden with 5 gallons of tea. It is more efficient.

No, a hose-end sprayer would dilute the tea. Not a good idea, plus I think the pressure from the hose might damage the fungi and bacteria. I complete the process of spraying in about 1 hour to 1 1/2 hr.

Henry,

Thank you for all the links and explanations. I need to study this more as it is not within my experience. I should have studied botany instead of American Lit. The concepts of horizontal and vertical resistance is absolutely fascinating. It explains a lot about why certain roses suddenly get BS after years of being free and others seem to develop a resistance and improve from year to year. Of course, some are hopeless.

Regarding the blue light. Does this information mean that I am not aiding or replenishing the micorhizal fungi when I spray with AACT? Is this something that is never regenerated once absent? If so, why am I spraying with AACT? I have to say that I have noticed a difference in my whole garden since I have been using the compost tea. Last year or maybe the year before, I had daylilies rebloom that never had before. All plants grow bigger and are fuller. Blooms are bigger and more profuse. I really like this stuff.

Interesting thread.

Barbara

The question was asked: "Regarding the blue light. Does this information mean that I am not aiding or replenishing the micorhizal fungi when I spray with AACT? Is this something that is never regenerated once absent?"

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I am not an "expert" in the mechanisms of micorhizal fungi. Nothing in the full paper was interpreted by me as suggestive of what you are asking. Perhaps if you point out the exact statement in the article that leads you to wonder, I can look more closely at it. Sorry.

Henry,

From the article "Learning More About Beneficial Soil Fungi" the statement is made in about paragraph 2 or 3,

"Currently, researchers cannot cultivate an AM fungus without a host because the fungus can't complete its life cycle without the organic nutrients or other stimuli it receives from roots."

I probably misread it. Now that I think about it, are they referring to recreating the fungi in a lab environment? Must be. I always thought microhizal fungi were like earthworms, you add organic matter and they come. Sorta like "build it and they will come" concept.

Sorry Henry for the bother.

Barbara

Barbara, thanks for the information on the sprayer. I did remember something about a fine spray causing damage to the microbes - and I wouldn't hurt them for the world! Glad to know that you've seen positive results from the AACT. I'll retrieve my kit from the shed tonight and brew a batch this weekend!
Catherine