I am of the opinion MAC is indeterminate, like tomato plants which require new growth to continuously set fruit. She appears to be bound only by available resources. As long as there are room, water, soil and nutrients, unfettered by pruning, freezing, drought or being eaten, she can continue occupying space and absorbing resources until there are no more to conquer. Kim

The obvious answer to the OP's question is - BIG, in any zone. Kim has a good point about this one perhaps being indeterminate and growing to its available height if allowed. Even in my zone, where we have to prune things every year, MAC is one of my monsters. I've posted a photo from last year, where she doesn't look all that big - behind Champlain and next to an elderberry bush/tree, but notice that all MAC's canes are growing sideways. The base of the plant is about 6 feet to the left of this photo, and all the canes are at least 10-12 feet tall.

Even this year after I had to cut her to the ground with no surviving cane whatsoever, she's already around 4 feet tall and ready to eat Cleveland if the opportunity arises. She's a fast grower once established even with pruning, so for heaven's sake don't plant her in a restricted space. I say once established, since for around 4 years she was unnoticed at the back of my beds putting down roots and plotting her world domination. She's well armed too, so I'm not sure I have the advantage in this fight.

Needless to say, she's also gorgeous and well worth the planting. The jaw-droppingly beautiful photos from catspa and Jackie are testament to this.

Cynthia

That's one of the more frustrating things about MAC to me. Too often, you read she's "thornless, or nearly so". NOT TRUE! They may not be enormous, but they ARE quite hooked, EXTREMELY sharp and sufficiently plentiful to inflict great pain if you become "too intimate" with her. I made the mistake of planting an own root plant on a five foot block wall in hopes of her making a suitable companion of the length of wall to Annie Laurie McDowell. NOPE! She took off into the neighbors' trees and filled the corner of the yard, well in to the lemon tree which shared that corner. Weekly, I had to remove her from the grass, lemon tree, Annie Laurie McDowell and the neighbors' trees. She tried to flower, but always where she was not welcomed, so, eventually, I had to rip that monster out by the roots, leaving behind a suitably sized pool of blood...MINE.

I do NOT miss bleeding, the pain, the chronic mildew (even though Annie Laurie McDowell nor either of the Sally Holmes on the connecting wall ever suffered mildew), nor the near total lack of bloom experienced by having to keep her from eating the block. If you have an "endless summer climate" with either huge spaces and large trees for her to eat (such as at Jackie's house), or a cathedral you would just love to slip cover with sharp armament and fragrance, go for her. Otherwise, forwarned is forearmed. Kim

Ok. Well. Firstly, let me say that Catspa's pictures of MAC are the finest I've ever seen. What a beauty she is! And Jackie, your garden must be the most beautiful thing, and probably closer to what mine will end up like - a little more informal, and a touch 'wild'. I love it.

Secondly, I would love to see this maple smothered in MAC, or any other rose for that matter. I'm not fond of looking at it at all, but the native birds love to nibble on its little seed pods, so it stays.

Thirdly, I have a couple of other spots where I could plant MAC if you don't think this would work. For instance, I have a huge water tank in part shade (you can just see it on the left of my first pics, it's sage green) that she could eat up, and then make her way up the east side of my house. She could eat my garage (also part shade), or she could wind her way through the trees over my back fence (20 metres wide, or 65 feet, in full sun).

But if I don't put her in the maple... What should I put in the maple!? Perhaps Aimee Vibert?

Oh would I love to have a blooming MAC like those. I can see it now, climbing up the lanky persimmon tree (it needs sun and gets little) reaching up and grabbing the oak tree and covering the top with blooms we can only see from the house (on a hill)

But I am a little afraid I would have to prune her....

MAC gets big, very, very big. Even though it is a repeat blooming rose, it defies the normal trend and gets big like some of the house eating ramblers.

I do know someone who prunes hard and frequently who keeps MAC the size of a large shrub, but I shake my head in wonder every time I see it. A normal MAC produces 20 foot canes on a regular basis.

Personally, I would be dubious about the continued health of the maple you are considering as a support.

I suspect Kim may be right, that MAC will continue to grow endlessly larger as long as adequate resources are available to support its growth.

Have we scared you off yet?

Rosefolly

The first year Arena budded roses for Ashdown in Wasco, Paul Zimmerman and I walked his field to inspect the Ashdown crop. He had budded MAC. We were amazed at the greater than inch thick canes MAC had produced its first summer! I looked at Paul and said, "This one does NOT require budding!" He agreed. Kim

Errr Kim, pretty much all roses are budded in Australia. We can't buy own root. Sorry, perhaps I should have mentioned that before. So my specimen will be, er, rather vigorous.... Hah. I suppose I could bury the graft (not recommended in Australia) and hope that the rootstock dies off and she forms her own roots, or something...

Rosefolly, that is a very good point about the maple losing the fight with MAC. I would rather it didn't fall on the house. I will choose another spot for her. I think she can have a crack at the water tank.

So now, I guess the question is, what should I send up the maple?

Some possible options - from the bunch I have ordered for this winter:

Aimee Vibert
Zephirine Drouhin or Kathleen Harrop
Cl. Lorraine Lee (a gigantea hybrid, so perhaps not...)
Sophie's Perpetual
Pax
Cl. SDLM
Heritage (apparently will climb)
Abe Darby (apparently will climb)

Or I could get something else. I was hoping for a rose there, but i suppose if there's nothing suitable a clematis will do.

My idea was the same as Catspa's and Muscovy's except my Japanese maple was dead to begin with. The canopy of the dead tree is not yet filled out with MAC, but the rose canes are getting large - They are approaching the size of the original tree trunks -

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My hope is that the rose will become self supporting before the dead tree completely disintegrates. I cut the canes as they arch down from the tree. Catspa's picture is the first I've seen that made me think that maybe this will work after all. Thanks for all the pictures, everyone! Gean

MAC comes easily from cuttings, so if you want an ownroot plant (and have a little patience) you can make your own.
I wish I had a monstrous MAC like those I see here, but my conditions are evidently too tough even for it. Mine are both shrubby. The one that clings to a terraced slope was pretty glorious this spring, though, and the next time I prune it I'm going to leave longer canes to arch out strung with blooms. Mine mildews a lot too, but when it's on it is wonderful. Definitely worthwhile in spite of the fungal problems.
Melissa

Muscovyduckling - the water tank sounds like a perfect place for MAC to start her career in your garden.

For the maple tree, I think Pax (the hybrid musk) would be a good idea. Its growth is moderate and open, it does climb, and the blooms and particularly the large older buds are gorgeous.

Jackie

P.S. I second Melissa's suggestion that you root a cutting of MAC if you would like one on its own roots. All of mine are on their own roots.

I'm chuckling, thinking of MAC helping herself to the water in your tank, then producing "faces" in the flowers. Think "Audrey II" (Little Shop of Horrors)! Kim

Good plan, everyone! Thankyou for your help.

I will eventually try to take some cuttings from her, when she is big enough. Although I am notoriously bad at rooting cuttings of any sort.

There's a big strip of 'no mans land' that runs along my east fence. The council doesn't maintain it, so it's overgrown with weeds and invasive species. I plan to plant a lot of big old ramblers there (I've already put in a few Lady Banks) and I think MAC would be right at home there too, if I can root some cuttings.

Honeysuckle would probably be my choice. It flings out stems which will twine back into the maple, bothers not one whit about shading foliage and, best of all, does not create grief when weeding the inevitable seedlings which gather underneath maples, at least here in the UK. True, it would be more of a wildlife habitat than ornamental beauty....but the scent of honeysuckle is so redolent of summer I could not bear to be without them. However, this just might look like wild jungly anathema.
MAC cuttings root like weeds!

Haha, good to know that cuttings root like weeds, Campanula. I actually killed hydrangea cuttings earlier this year, so I don't have a lot of hope for MAC babies, but I will try.

Honeysuckle (japanese) is a horribly invasive noxious weed here. I'm sure European honeysuckle would probably be OK, but it's very difficult to source because of the "honeysuckle is invasive" mindset - many nurseries just won't stock honeysuckle, full stop.

I did find a clematis specialist who has lonicera serotina available through mail order - have you smelled that one? I bought lonicera x heckrottii 'Firecracker' last year but it's not very fragrant. And what's the point of honeysuckle if it's not fragrant? I don't want to go down that road again yet again. Still, I will most likely order one next year when I buy some clematis from them. (But I have other plans for that one.... Did I hear you say 'honeysuckle hedge'? Mwahahaha).

Truthfully, I'm pretty excited about putting Pax under the maple. Hope it works out!

Muscovy, here is a link to 'Pax'
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4701, I have it growing here in Mudgee/NSW/Aus. It is more like a large shrub thana Clb in my climate, Many years ago, before phone camera's I saw it grown as a hedge, very impressive.
Regards David.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4701

This post was edited by Glenburn on Tue, Jun 3, 14 at 16:37

HMF says that Pax can get up to 8 feet. In my zone 9 garden, growing mostly in the shade, it got up to about 15 feet at one point.

Jackie

Wow, after reading all the posts about the house-eating MAC I'm wondering what's going to happen when the four MACs I planted in November to cover a 'rustic shelter' that's 10 metres long by 2.5 metres high with a 2 - 3 metre wide roof structure start to put on some growth.

I'm rather embarrassed to post a photo of what will be my 'rose arbour' because my husband insists that it is, without doubt, the ugliest thing he's ever seen. I keep telling him that in a couple of years it will be smothered in wonderfully fragrant white roses but he's very doubtful.

Is anyone prepared to hazard a guess as to how long it will take for my 4 MACs to create my longed-for 'rose arbour'??? Each rose is planted in the middle of a 2.5 metre (8 foot) span.

Cheers
Tricia

Hi David! Nice to see you here (where it all began, hehe). But that's a bit of a bummer about your Pax not acting like a climber, and could ruin all my plans. Is yours in sun or shade, David? I'm wondering if it might throw out some longer canes if it's in the shade vs sun. Or I might need to choose something else... Le sigh.

Tricia, that arbour looks awesome! I can just imagine it brimming with roses! Your husband is crazy :) He will be eating his words in a few years!

Wow, after reading all the posts about the house-eating MAC I'm wondering what's going to happen when the four MACs I planted in November to cover a 'rustic shelter' that's 10 metres long by 2.5 metres high with a 2 - 3 metre wide roof structure start to put on some growth.

I'm rather embarrassed to post a photo of what will be my 'rose arbour' because my husband insists that it is, without doubt, the ugliest thing he's ever seen. I keep telling him that in a couple of years it will be smothered in wonderfully fragrant white roses but he's very doubtful.

Is anyone prepared to hazard a guess as to how long it will take for my 4 MACs to create my longed-for 'rose arbour'??? Each rose is planted in the middle of a 2.5 metre (8 foot) span.

Cheers
Tricia

{{!gwi}}

Joining in very late to this thread, but thought I'd share current MAC experiences. I've kept my plant at 10 feet or so for 10 years with regular (ongoing) pruning. I'm in Portland, OR, so she's probably tamer here than in warmer climates, but maintenance of her "diminutive" size still requires some work. My garden is so tiny, I am forced to prune or remove, so I prune. She's that good. However, as Kim and others have noted, she has saber-like thorns. Wear tough sleeves and gloves and mind your hair! Carol

Tricia, MAC may take a little while to establish (don't give up if she does), but then she's quick once she's out of the gate. She'll probably shoot up much more speedily in your climate. We're cooler and cloudier here. You might see a fullish enough covering (if own-root plants, up the sides of the arbor and maybe more if grafted?) in...ummm...3 years? Enough covering to satisfy your desire for arbor beautification? She's going to look fantastic on your structure! By the by, your arbor looks beyond great to me! You can bring it to my place if you'd like. :-) Carol

Tricia - your arbour looks perfect for MAC. Please post some pictures when it is covered!

Muscovyduckling - don't give up on Pax. As I said above, mine got up to 15 feet high. It IS a climber.

Jackie

Tricia, I would say 3 or 4 years, also, but you probably only REALLY needed maybe 1 or 2 MACs ;-). With 4, it will go faster. I think your arbor looks fine -- not that anyone is going to see it in a few years, what with 4 MACs and all...

My husband was also doubtful about my MAC on the pergola. It was just a tiny band from The Uncommon Rose when I planted it and he made some snide comment about "high hopes" or "great expectations" or such. He's eating those words now!

It is interesting to note, by the way, that the MAC from The Uncommon Rose has pinker blooms than my other two MACs, one of which came from Vintage and the other from a now defunct nursery in the same town as Vintage -- whether this is due to different conditions (front yard versus back yard) or a peculiarity of that clone, I don't know.

Kim, I apologize for my "hissy fit" on my RdV thread (NOT caused by you, btw...) but your story about you and Paul Z. looking at a lusty big baby MAC,and agreeing that this rose was vigorous enough to grow own-root (if I am correct in thinking that "budding" means "grafting") explains precisely why I got so irritated on my RdV thread...this guy "authoritatively instructing" me how to plant my RdV, since according to him it doesn't like my soil, etc, etc etc,and therefore shouldn't be allowed to go own root...it was too much. The whole point of my original question about RdV was why in tarnation a rose that grew so vigorously should refuse to produce decent flowers!!!!! on digging it up, I got at least a partial valid answer...and your own original comment plus Jeri's (added onto what Paul Z told me on his forum)is illuminating, too. bart

Hi Bart, yes, grafting and budding are essentially the same (some variation as far as the exact plant part inserted into the stock and perhaps how it's inserted, but close enough for government work). I guess I should apologize for not realizing you were having a hissy fit. I'm glad you have found some of your answer. Feels good, doesn't it? Kim

You won't have a maple to look at any more. Let that rose cover your garage, shed, watertank and root some more for another roof to cover. I vote pretty Hybrid Musk Felecia for the maple tree.

My MAC is growing huge trunks inside of my plum and all the leaves and flowers are up above it along the eaves. The little pale petals fall continuously. It grew slowly in shade the first year and now spreads like a monster while the bare trunks below get ever fatter. That plum could be removed and the rose would still be supporting itself. You don't really need a tree, just put up some heavy poles or a teepee and a few years later the rose is its own tree.

Reading this thread,I think I'd better get meself a MAC....but I have to figure out a good place for it. I must admit I do love the uber-vigorous,huge growers...
and no need to apologize, Kim! I'm complimented and pleased that I managed to conceal my hissy fit so well, and come across as a reasonable, mature person,lol! bart

Catspa, I would be delighted if my MACs eventually looked even a fraction as beautiful as yours on the pergola or the trellis!

Yes, all four of mine are own root, bought last year in 2.5 litre pots and planted at the end of November. Perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way, but whenever one of the plants puts out a new basal shoot I'm tying it down to the wire mesh as close as possible to ground level so that I will end up with all the wire mesh hidden and the roses will literally be flowering 'from the ground up'. As I've never done this before it's quite possible that I'm wrong?

Interesting that one of your MACs is more pink than the others - mine come from a supplier here in Italy but there's a decidedly pink tinge (especially in today's heat) - to all four of mine. This photo was taken half an hour ago - the temperature is around 32 degrees at the moment and the roses are in full sun all day long - I hope they don't all crisp up when summer arrives in earnest.

Tricia

Tricia, It will be interesting to see how MAC responds when trained that way-- worth a try. In my case, all my MACs are next to structures so light to the base was limited from the start and once the canopy fully developed, the lower parts of the canes were mostly shaded, leaving 6' or so of bare trunk. New canes starting lower down must head straight up to the light or die and are bare at the base.

Your structure, at least, allows light from the back -- is it a southern exposure on that side? Of the tea-noisettes I have, MAC and Jaune Desprez are the most relentlessly vertical in nature; canes trained horizontally put up numerous strong, vertical canes that solidity into stiff uprights if left too long. With the trellis and to some extent on the pergola, I pull these long verticals downward and train them horizontally (thus creating more verticals -- it's endless!); the ones in the pepper tree just go up and further up. (Reve d'Or and Crepuscule have been the most accommodating to horizontal training and keeping lower foliage, thus far.)

I have seen MACs heavily pruned and trained as free-standing shrubs that were not so bare-legged.

I think heat definitely makes MAC's blooms pinker -- even the MACs that are pale in spring show a pinkish tinge during summer (as does Jaune Desprez, who is more pink than yellow most of the summer here). That said, the MAC on the pergola is consistently more pink than the others, even in the spring, much like in your photo.

I would rate MAC as my most heat-tolerant rose, one of the extremely few that do not crisp at all when temperatures are over 100 degrees F (38 C), looking amazingly fresh, even, in those conditions. As well as being light-colored, the petals have good substance.

I think established plants of MAC are nearly bullet-proof. Your shelter is going to be beautiful, I think!

This post was edited by catspa on Sat, Jun 7, 14 at 14:49

Catspa, I did quite a bit of research before I settled on MAC for my 'rose arbour' - it really does need to be bullet-proof to survive here. Apart from the torrid, very dry summers we have freezing, gale-force winds in winter and there's absolutely no way of providing any protection for the roses whatsoever.

The orientation of the rose arbour is almost exactly North/South, so the roses are in full sun from sunrise (5:30am at the moment) until sunset (8:45pm now).

We're in the country and the structure is on the edge of our parking area (which you can see from the photo below). It will provide some much-needed shade in Summer (eventually) for our small cars. However, much more importantly, it will be a beautiful sight to behold when I open the front door and see the rose arbour adorned with all the blooms of MAC instead of the remains of whatever crop my neighbour (a farmer) has decided to grow each year - only once has he planted sunflowers - they were wonderful while they lasted which wasn't long!

I'll post more photos as the roses grow, however, I believe that with the heat we're having now the growth rate will slow down quite a lot.

Cheers
Tricia

Aaaack!!! You have no idea how frustrating it is not to be able to grow these monstrous beauties here! Boo Hoo!

Now you know the torture those of us in these climates endure when you folks in the more suitable climates post photos of wonderful French Hybrid Lilacs; incredible Peonies; drifts of amazing Hosta; fields of Tulips, etc. Anything desiring colder, harder winters with RAIN. Kim

Seil, I grow MAC in zone 6a, we can do it! :-) It doesn't grow taller than 12' in my zone 6a here.

catspa, Thank you for sharing the beautiful photos of Mme Alfred Carriere!

And thank you, Summerseve, for your info on how large she grows in your zone (6a), which is not so very different, I suppose, from mine (6b).

Tricia, it would be greatly appreciated if you would post photos of your arbor and Mme Alfred Carriere's progress each summer. I look forward to seeing how she grows!

Hi Mountie,

Attached is a photo of my MAC taken today. If you compare it to the one I posted on the 8th June (which was taken on the 8th June) you can see how much the roses have grown in just four months.

Our Summer was very unusual this year - we normally have really torrid weather with no rain from mid-June until the end of August, however, this year it wasn't particularly hot and it seemed to rain at least once a week. I'm sure that this accounts for all the growth - not only MAC but all my roses are enormous (however, I've had to spray constantly because of black spot - although MAC was one of the least affected by it and its foliage is quite clean at the moment).

Hope this answers your question.

Cheers
Tricia

Tricia,
Thank you for posting the photo of MAC. She is much larger now than she was in June! I love to imagine what she'll look like next year.....and the next.....and the next! Hopefully, someday I'll grow her too! I believe she will do just fine in zone 6b. I hope you will enjoy your arbor and your roses for many years to come!

Woo Tricia, she's looking good! Well done!

I ended up planting MAC next to the water tank, and she hasn't done much there yet as she'll be in a bit of shade until she can get to about 3' tall. I had decided to put one of the HMs with the maple, but when it came time to actually dig the hole, I discovered that there was no way in the world I could get my spade through those maple roots! So I planted nothing there after all.

Still. I'm glad we had this chat about MAC. I can't wait to see a bloom or two!

Yes, I can't wait for her to cover the roof of my 'structure' .... I left a space between the top of the wire netting and the roof in the hope that she would be orderly and take the easy way out but, of course, I was wrong.

She keeps trying (and succeeding) to push her canes through the bamboo on the roof (that we put on this year to get some protection for the cars from the sun). However, I keep pulling them back down and tying them horizontally.

I don't know how I'll ever manage to prune her because every cane that I tie horizontally immediately sprouts along its length with more canes that I tie horizontally etc. and so it goes. We've had a very mild autumn until now but, from tomorrow, our temperatures will plummet to lows of around 4 and highs of 14 (roughly 40F to 55F) - not cold but a real shock after the glorious sunny mid-20s we've been having until today.

Cheers
Tricia

Absolutely stunning! Incredibly gorgeous, I bet your husband is eating his words about your "ugly" arbor! It really looks heavenly.

Breathtaking! A great job!!

This is a free standing plant in a garden we visited in San Juan Bautista a few weeks go. I don't know how old it is, but it is definitely "substantial". Kim

Kim, that free-standing plant is spectacular! I think I might take some cuttings in Autumn and, if any of them 'take', I could plant a couple to see if I can close the space between the end of my hedgerow and the beginning of car shelter.

Ninkasi - my husband agrees that the rose is beautiful but he won't be happy until the entire 'structure' is buried by the roses - I'm only too willing to see that happen too but it will probably take another year - given the rate at which they've grown over the past 18 months since they were planted! Tricia

She looks fabulous Tricia! Mine didn't do much this year, I think she's still in the 'sleep' phase. We're coming into winter now, and I think I'd better reinforce her trellis, seeing the growth on yours in just 18 months!

Any photos this Spring would be welcome. Or last Springs photos for that matter.

Following, considering MAC for my pergola later in the fall.

Thought I'd update my post from five years ago. My "shrubby" MAC, planted in a terrace perched on a rock, is twenty feet in all directions and ten feet tall, though she'd be taller if she weren't draped over a pergola. She doesn't get more water than the rain brings, or more fertilizer than her owned pruned canes. I disagree about the thorns, by the way. I rate MAC only very moderately prickly. I was climbing around inside her a couple of weeks ago cutting out old growth, and I speak with authority.