Banner Maxx and Infuse contain the same fungicide: propiconazole. The Bayer product contains a chemically similar fungicide: tebuconazole. It is a demonstrated fact that tebuconazole has the ability to kill established blackspot infections. To my knowledge, no one has yet demonstrated a similar ability of propiconazole, but given their similar chemical structures and the fact that propiconazole and tebuconazole exhibit the same mode of action - they inhibit ergosterol biosynthesis in the fungus - it's probably a good bet that propiconazole can also kill established blackspot infections.

Unfortunately the Bayer is banned by NYState because they think that rose growers use 30 gallons of it a day. I feel for you, my mom still lives on LI and I told her to use the Bayer on her roses, but she can't get it. Maybe drive to NJ to get a bottle?

The Infuse label

http://yardlover.indigofiles.com/314148.pdf

states: "This product will not eliminate disease already present".

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The active ingredient Propiconazole is still being studied with regard to its health effects: for example, here are 2 very recent reviewed scientific papers:

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Title: A potential microRNA signature for tumorigenic conazoles in mouse liver.

Authors: Ross JA, Blackman CF, Thai SF, Li Z, Kohan M, Jones CP, Chen T.

Authors affiliation: Integrated Systems Toxicology Division, NHEERL, U.S. EPA, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, USA.

Published in: Mol Carcinog. volume 49, pages 320-3, (2010).

Abstract: "Triadimefon, propiconazole, and myclobutanil are conazoles, an important class of agricultural fungicides. Triadimefon and propiconazole are mouse liver tumorigens, while myclobutanil is not. As part of a coordinated study to understand the molecular determinants of conazole tumorigenicity, we analyzed the microRNA expression levels in control and conazole-treated mice after 90 d of administration in feed. MicroRNAs (miRNAs) are small noncoding RNAs composed of approximately 19-24 nucleotides in length, and have been shown to interact with mRNA (usually 3' UTR) to suppress its expression. MicroRNAs play a key role in diverse biological processes, including development, cell proliferation, differentiation, and apoptosis. Groups of mice were fed either control diet or diet containing 1800 ppm triadimefon, 2500 ppm propiconazole, or 2000 ppm myclobutanil. MicroRNA was isolated from livers and analyzed using Superarray whole mouse genome miRNA PCR arrays from SABioscience. Data were analyzed using the significance analysis of microarrays (SAM) procedure. We identified those miRNAs whose expression was either increased or decreased relative to untreated controls with q http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20175128

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Title: "Toxicogenomic effects common to triazole antifungals and conserved between rats and humans"

Authors: Amber K. Goetza, b and David J. Dixa, ,

Authors affiliation: aNational Center for Computational Toxicology, Office of Research and Development, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 27711, USA

bDepartment of Environmental and Molecular Toxicology, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, North Carolina 27695, USA

Published in: Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology
Volume 238, pages 80-89, (2009).

Abstract: "The triazole antifungals myclobutanil, propiconazole and triadimefon cause varying degrees of hepatic toxicity and disrupt steroid hormone homeostasis in rodent in vivo models. To identify biological pathways consistently modulated across multiple timepoints and various study designs, gene expression profiling was conducted on rat livers from three separate studies with triazole treatment groups ranging from 6 h after a single oral gavage exposure, to prenatal to adult exposures via feed. To explore conservation of responses across species, gene expression from the rat liver studies were compared to in vitro data from rat and human primary hepatocytes exposed to the triazoles. Toxicogenomic data on triazoles from 33 different treatment groups and 135 samples (microarrays) identified thousands of probe sets and dozens of pathways differentially expressed across time, dose, and species many of these were common to all three triazoles, or conserved between rodents and humans. Common and conserved pathways included androgen and estrogen metabolism, xenobiotic metabolism signaling through CAR and PXR, and CYP mediated metabolism. Differentially expressed genes included the Phase I xenobiotic, fatty acid, sterol and steroid metabolism genes Cyp2b2 and CYP2B6, Cyp3a1 and CYP3A4, and Cyp4a22 and CYP4A11; Phase II conjugation enzyme genes Ugt1a1 and UGT1A1; and Phase III ABC transporter genes Abcb1 and ABCB1. Gene expression changes caused by all three triazoles in liver and hepatocytes were concentrated in biological pathways regulating lipid, sterol and steroid homeostasis, identifying a potential common mode of action conserved between rodents and humans. Modulation of hepatic sterol and steroid metabolism is a plausible mode of action for changes in serum testosterone and adverse reproductive outcomes observed in rat studies, and may be relevant to human risk assessment."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WXH-4W6Y5FG-3&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F01%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1342486344&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9098431bcf1463053a8927ac89345164

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I recommend the utilization of the Precautionary Principle concerning the present use of propiconazole based blackspot sprays on roses.

Henry, with respect to the ability of Infuse to kill established infections of blackspot, Bonide, the manufacturer of Infuse, makes the following statements at its web site:

1) "...prevents and stops blackspot.."
2) "..powerful systemic protection that prevents and cures.."
3) "will not eliminate disease already present"

I think the question is still open.

which is why I still mix propiconazole (Banner Maxx) with mancozeb (Pentathlon DF).

The Infuse label also specifically states the following in reference to blackspot on roses: "May not provide 100% control of blackspot under severe conditions."

The action of tebuconazole (Bayer) on rose black spot has been thoroughly studied. Existing spots, obviously, will not disappear, but the fungal body within the leaf is killed and broken up. If the fungus has developed to a certain point (perhaps around a week after the first small spot appears), the leaf is damaged so much that it will die. But if the chemical is applied up to 10 days after fungal germination (soon after first spot is visible), the leaf will live. (This is from the Emma Gachomo dissertation.) Whether propiconazole (Banner/Infuse) is equally effective is not known.

A rose can easily withstand one round of defoliation by blackspot if it is protected thereafter. If there is no threat of winter damage, roses can survive repeated defoliations.

"Prevention" of blackspot is a matter of continuous protection of the individual leaves. It is not a matter of keeping the disease out of the garden or off the plants--impossible goals in blackspot country.

Michael, I must say you convinced me enough of the curative effect of Tebuconazole last year that when an outbreak of blackspot occured on one rose this spring I broke out the Bayer product to see what would happen. After picking off, or picking up most of the infected leaves (the bush had damage only on the lower leaves), I have sprayed all my roses, including the infected one, 3 times- one week apart, with the Bayer product. No more B.S. showing on the original suspect and no new outbreaks. Would the same thing have happened if I had used another fungicide after removing most of the infected leaves? I don't know. I do know that I had minor BS last year even though I sprayed fairly regularily with Banner Maxx during the summer, but like the poster, the BM was 5 years old. Could shelf life make a big difference? I don't know. Have my roses become immune to BM? I don't know. I've gotten a fresh supply of BM and hope that makes a difference. Spraying every 2-3 weeks is preferential to me rather then every 7 days. Until then, maybe I'm clapping to keep the tigers away by using the Bayer product when an active infection occurs, but I'm not one to sneer at subjective success.

Thank you all for your suggestions and help.

Diane in NJ -hi - i used to use banner maxx and mancozeb - i had a friend I worked with who travelled from NJ so he used to get it for me. I see rosemania has the powder form that is available to ship to NY , but i use a hand held sprayer and wonder if it will be a pain getting it diluted and then into the sprayer?

maryl, Bayer is fully effective for me used every 14 days. It can be used every 7 days if there is a lot of blackspot already in the garden. Banner/Infuse should not be used every 7 days because it can reduce the growth of plants. I don't know of any reason to prefer mancozeb/Banner over Bayer unless you have a big problem with spot anthracnose, which mancozeb might control better, I don't know.

We also had a discussion about the merits of the Bayer product on leaf spot diseases other then BS. I and others were having some problems with that when the weather was cool and damp. This spring, using the Bayer product, no leaf spot at all and it was cooler for longer then is normal. I used the Bayer product every week not just because of the minor BS infestation, but also to see how it controlled/prevented leaf spot which no other product I'd used in the past seemed to do a really good job on. I'm a happy camper with the Bayer for that reason alone....Also between you and me, when the weather gets really hot, I'll go 3 weeks between sprayings with BM if the forecast looks dry.

Yeah Maryl, I've planted a lot of varieties that are supposed to be BS-resistant; most of them turned out to be much more susceptible to cercospora spot than standard modern roses are. Here we have conditions favoring cercospora pretty much all season, and it can make a mess of plants. Bayer gives perfect control. However, someone on the forum suggested that Bayer does not control spot anthracnose. I don't know, because I haven't seen that disease in years since I pitched a couple of susceptible varieties.

Maureen, I don't dilute the mancozeb, I add it directly into the tank, fill 1/3 with water, add the Banner MAxx, finish filling tank.

I haven't done the control, but I still have excellent results with the program that I have been using for 5+ years.

Michael and Maryl, I continue to spray every 2 weeks until a hard frost. Sometimes in my area, that could be early December. But I will still spray once a month in the winter because of cercospora and anthracnose. I learned my lesson one fall I stopped spraying and it stayed warm and all my roses were spotty and stayed that way through spring.

thanks Diane. I think when i get some extra money i'll get the mancozeb. My birthday is in June and i should get some money to buy that. Meantime, i'll start spraying now with the banner maxx.

The following Google Scholar link will give you some background information concerning whether it would be prudent to utilize the Precautionary Principle concerning the utilization of mancozeb with your roses.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=mancozeb+health&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=100000000001&as_sdtp=on

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The Precautionary Principle is discussed in a April 2010 President's Cancer Panel Report:

http://deainfo.nci.nih.gov/advisory/pcp/pcp08-09rpt/PCP_Report_08-09_508.pdf

The following is taken from the summary of the President's Cancer Panel Report linked to below:

"President's Cancer Panel: Environmentally caused cancers are 'grossly underestimated' and 'needlessly devastate American lives.'
"The true burden of environmentally induced cancers has been grossly underestimated," says the President's Cancer Panel in a strongly reported report that urges action to reduce people's widespread exposure to carcinogens. The panel today advised President Obama "to use the power of your office to remove the carcinogens and other toxins from our food, water, and air that needlessly increase health care costs, cripple our nation's productivity, and devastate American lives."

"Lefall and Kripke concluded that action is necessary to reduce exposures, even though in many cases there is scientific uncertainty about whether certain chemicals cause cancer. That philosophy, called the precautionary principle, is highly controversial among scientists, regulators and industry."

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/presidents-cancer-panel