In regard to welding: Your description of the "hole in the block" is a bit vague as to precisely "what object or part" actually caused the "hole". If this "hole" is the result of a connecting rod being hurled into the block and bludgeoning a hole, welding is not an option. If some other component truly "rubbed a hole" through the block, the answer is "MAYBE". It sounds as though you would still be out at least $200.00 plus the cost of the actual welding (because in order to weld the block the engine must still be removed from the tractor and disassembled for the welding and reassembled and put back on the tractor afterward. You haven't given any indication that you could do any of the necessary steps yourself so I presume you would have it done by the shop. There are still too many unknown details of the failure to say much more than that.

Thanks for responding mownie.

The mechanic didn't know what part it was, but it had 2 wires connecting it and brackets on the side. It appears it was attached elsewhere and had come loose. It then lodged itself down towards the bottom of the block and through the vibrations rubbed a hole in the block. I will have it back tomorrow and will try and take some pictures. You can actually see where some rubbing took place and created a groove (that has not yet become a hole) which would need to be patched as well.

The mechanic thought it could be welded right in place (removing or blocking off the gas tank), but felt removing and opening up the block to ensure no metal inside, would be the best option and therefore just replacing the block would be the best course of action.

I would not be doing any of the work myself.

A sleeve and new piston, if required, might be an option.

If the mechanic couldn't tell you what the part was you need a new mechanic. These small engines only have maybe 2 dozen identifiable parts and a mechanic worth using should be able to name them all. He should also be able to explain exactly why the part moved and was rubbing (something like, "see a bolt fell out of here") and tell you why it won't happen again when he's done ("I'll use loctite and a lockwasher and we won't have the problem again").

Then depending on what engine is in the machine you might check somewhere like http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/ and see how much it would be for a full replacement. Unfortunately I'd guess that to be way more than you're looking at.
A good welder should be able to weld up a hole caused by rubbing but I'd darned sure want to know why it happened and make darned sure it won't happen again. Holes should NOT be caused by rubbing from the outside!

As an aside an uncle of mine once had a connecting rod break on a mower, he got a new rod and put the bits back into the hole with JB weld. As far as I know he's still using it...

"The mechanic didn't know what part it was, but it had 2 wires connecting it and brackets on the side"

Sounds to me like the first thing you need is a new mechanic.

IF the only problem is truly just a small hole worn from the outside into/thru the block, that can be cleaned and satisfactory repaired using JB Weld, yes JB Weld.

Walt Conner

If I only felt like typing the time I have had trying to get this tractor repaired at this place.....

They are pretty much the only gig in town. I bought the tractor their to support the little guys, unfortunately they have lost my future business.

He actually said, "I haven't looked that part up yet" when discussing the dangling piece.

I get the tractor back tomorrow so I will put some picture as the hole and the ganging piece online and link to them.

Seems like I can do the JB Weld myself? Any tricks to using it? What is the downside here? I put JB Weld on, refill with oil. If it craps out all I am lost is the cost of the JB Weld right, then I decide whether to get a new short block? If their is metal inside the block can I do damage to another part of the engine besides the short block?

Thanks again for all the help

One other thing, the mechanic said the only way I could weld it would be Helioarc?

I'm just having a hard time believing that something rubbing the block could make a hole in it... I mean what the heck is heavy enough under there to do this??? I guess if the block is aluminum (which it probably is) and the dangling part is a heavy cast iron thing and was slamming into the engine, it may make a gough, but a hole??

I agree with the knowledgeable posters here and somehow get a new mechanic. It will definitely pan out in the long run.

good luck!
-gh

Waiting for pictures to see what the heck we are talking about.

Walt Conner

Yes, please post pictures of the "dangly part" and the hole in the block. I don't know who called the mechanic a moron but I want to know who called that moron a mechanic.

If i read this correctly,an outside part rubbed thru the block and the engine should be leaking oil "correct" we don't know what the part is ????? or the size of the whole ????....if it's not an internal failure ,then don't worry about it ....use JB weld (follow direction on package) or have someonw weld it up(heliarc is for stainless steel I believe,a tig welder can do aluminum!)....any small pieces of metal,or JB weld will be held to the bottom of the block by the oil (that's what it is supposed to do) when the oil is drained,and if drained well enough any small particulates will come out with the oil.IF this was my mower this is what I would do,If it was a CUSTOMERS MOWER and there is a liability on the repair ,then welding or a short block would be in order ....my 2 cents Jim

The engine needs to be disassembled to determine what broke and why. The part with the two wires attached sounds like a low oil shutdown switch. Did something else come unglued and break the switch on the way by? Usually, that would be a broken connecting rod or governor gear.

I'm having a lot of trouble following this thread.

Is the part internal or external? Is the hole toward the top or bottom? Is the engine aluminum or iron? What is leaking from the hole? .. gas, oil or air? And when is it leaking, if it is? Is the "dangly thing" supposed to be "in" the hole?

It would seem, that any mechanic familiar with today's engines, should be able to identify the part in a heart beat. ??

You don't suppose we went for that "hook line and sinker?"

Walt Conner

I am getting a good chuckle out of this. Thank you.

Tough Bunch!

Ok to recap (pictures coming when I get home, assuming they have delivered it back as requested).

A few weeks ago, when I went out to mow, I noticed oil on the floor, upon opening the hood, I noticed oil all over the engine

I checked and refilled the oil, started the tractor and used it for a little bit to see if there were any other apparent issues. None noted.

I had the tractor sent to the place I purchased it and the only place in the area where I know to have it serviced.

They had it for close to 4 weeks and up until last week was told that the gaskets needed to be replaced and they were waiting for parts.

Monday, I got a call that the parts came in and when they went to do the repair, found a hole in the bottom right (assuming you are sitting in the drivers seat) of the short block.

He provided replacement and labor cost, informed me it could not be patched and that I should let them know my decision.

I posted on Craigslist an ad asking if anyone could do the labor part (if i purchased the short block) and I got a response that if there was no other damage (just a freak hole), I could probably weld a patch.

I did a google search and came across this forum so I posted my questions (now realizing with not nearly enough information).

Based on responses, I went to the tractor place and spoke to the mechanic yesterday. He took me out to my tractor, tipped it up, showed me the hole, the line outside the hole where this "dangly piece" as we are affectionately calling it now had been rubbing away at the ALUMINUM short block and would have soon rubbed through as well.

I asked what the piece was and he did not know, but showed me where it appears to have broken off wherever it was secured to. Once I get pictures, someone may be able to identify. But it is was rectangle shape with 2 metal brackets on each side. 2 wires connected to it and black on one side.

I asked about welding and he said it would have to be helioarc and that to really do it properly I would need to remove the engine and open it up to make sure none of the metal was in the block and that it would probabyl cost me just as much as getting a new block (which i confirm with 2 welders last night).

I think that is all the info/extraneous details i have right now, until I can get a couple of pictures of the hole and dangly piece.

Thanks again!

There are only a couple of parts with wires. These should be identifiable from the Parts Tree diagrams for your tractor/engine/serial number.

If the hole is below the the piston, correct me if I'm wrong, there is no appreciable amount of pressure. I'd go with "clean it up and JB weld it". If it's a small hole, I'd stick a wire in it, turn the engine over to determine if any thing on the inside could hit it and possibly, screw a screw into the hole with some silicone around the head and threads.

Here is a link that might be useful: PartsTree.com parts diagrams

I know this isn't a "welding forum", but just to ventilate the welding fumes, "Heli-arc" and "T.I.G." are the same thing (just different nomenclature) as used loosely in conversation. T.I.G. parsed is Tungsten electrode, Inert Gas shield. In this process the welding arc is held between the base metal (object being welded) and a Tungsten electrode (in the so called "torch"). The Inert Gas is flowed out of the "torch cup" at the electrode holder and thus drives atmosheric gases out of the weld puddle effectively "shielding" the puddle from contamination from O2, Hydrogen, etc. The Tungsten only holds the arc, deposit or filler metal is added to the puddle from a separate filler rod or wire. The word "Heli-arc" was originally a copyrighted brand name for one manufacturer's product line of T.I.G. welders. T.I.G. can be used to weld ALL metals and can be used for "brazing" (bronze welding). Another popular inert gas welding process is M.I.G. (Metal electrode, Inert Gas shield) where the weld arc is borne by a fed wire electrode that also serves as the deposit or filler metal.

PICTURES!!

1st the approximate location of the hole and dangly thing

{{gwi:337019}}

2nd the hole, you can see to the Southwest of the hole the additional groove made by said dangly thing. The hole is about 1/4" (tip of pinky)

{{gwi:337021}}

3rd, (Drum Roll Please), the Dangly thing, 1st person to identify it gets my praise in my signature: This is one side of it

{{gwi:337023}}

This is the other side:

{{gwi:337025}}

Let me know what other info to provide, you have all been great!

I'd go with regulator.

Fill the hole and damage with JB Weld. ... after checking for moving parts inside.

http://www.tympanium.com/index.html

Looks like a regulator to me also (it really is a regulator)...Clean up the hole with a real good degreaser ,stir up JB weld (let it thicken a bit ,fill hole w/JB weld ,wait 24 hours ,check oil level and run it (oh secure regulator away from JB weld area,relocate the thingy) check for leaks after 8 hours ,change oil (just to be sure) an foregin particles come out with old oil ....
Ya know it hard to tell but Automotive goop ,or something similar may work just as well ,the hole does not look bigger than a 1/4" ,JB weld is like real hard body filler ,automotive goop is like silicone but tougher ....
what model C.C.is this and with what engine ???? I'm looking at a C.C.at Tractor supply ,big unit 27hp Kohler 54" deck (Model number escapes me right now) around 3K ....

Mownie,Thanks for the welding tip,I'm a shade tree welder ,I weld just enough to keep things together ,but I bring the complicated stuff to my friends at the machine shop .....and let the experts solve the tough issues....see ya Jim

thanks for the advice Jim, it is a 17.5hp Briggs industrial Plus OHV, Model 1170, Go it 6 years ago for 2K.

It is a tight area, is one (weld vs. goop) easier to use than the other?

Thanks

Another thing about re-mounting the "dangly thingy", part of it's mounting is probably a heat-sink. It should be mounted on a structure, similar to where it was.

One more thing: The regulator probably uses it's mounting as the ground. This means it has to be mounted to metal to complete the ground and it brings up another scenario: the hole was probably burnt through, rather than wearing through, due to the regulator arching, as it was trying to complete it's circuit.

foolish one, (I hope I pronounced it right) you need to clean the area around the hole using an aerosol spray of automotive brake cleaner to thoroughly degrease and then you need to scrape, wire brush, sand or dremel tool the area about 3/4" around the hole until any paint or surface glaze is gone. You really need bare metal for the JB weld to "bite into". Then using the JB Weld as described by jimc vt, coat the entire area. If the JB Weld tends to run or sag before it sets, apply a layer of masking tape over the JB weld. The ADhesion of the tape and the COhesion of the JB weld will hold the epoxy in place till it sets and cures. Peel the tape off the next day (before running engine).

According to the schematic below, the dangly thing is referred to as the "stator" rather than regulator. Looking at the schematic, the component is on the lower left of the page. I don't see any ground pictured on the stator connections, so it apparently doesn't need a ground.

We're back to: "the component wore through".

Here is a link that might be useful: 1170 wiring schematic

Since it hasn't been properly mounted in some time, hence the hole, I would say it doesn't need a ground.

I saw the schematic with both eyes and I fail to understand how the OEM came to call this a "stator". My idea of "stator" (in fluid dynamics or electro dynamics) is the STATiOnaRy component in a rotating assemblage of parts. At any rate we know this part was not stationary. tmajor (et at), you can rotate the PDF image of the schematic by clicking the "rotation button" CW or CCW on the tool bar header (rest your cursor on the buttons until it identifies the correct button). My neck began aching until I found a way to rotate the image :^) LOL

The PartsTree link above, refers to it as a regulator. I guess, it's really a "dangly thing".

The "dangly thing" is made by Tympanium (says so right on it, in the picture) and they make Charge Indicators, Regulators & Ignition Modules for Small Engines, according to their web site.

I STRONGLY suggest that your ground it and mount it firmly. Why not?

Thanks again all, it appears the consensus is to use JB Weld after properly prepping the area to fix the hole.

Now to the Regulator, Stator, "dangly thing". I have tried to figure out where it came from to no avail. There is an area that it appears it may have come from but it doesn't quite reach there (although if I spent some time repositioning the wires it might, I don't know).

Where can I mount it and how should I do so?

I will post some pics of where I think it msy have come from and my thoughts for mounting.

Thanks

ok here are some pictures, the 1st is the area where it looks like it may have come from, their is a similar hole straight down from the hole you can see the distance appears to be the same as the 2 bolts on the back of the dangly thing

{{gwi:337026}}

This picture is an approximate location of where those holes are

{{gwi:337027}}

Finally, where I was thinking I might mount it, I can get in there with a drill I think and just get new, longer bolts that what are currently in it.

{{gwi:337028}}

If someone here has the same model cub cadet!maybe they can take a a few pics.How about the service manual!or some other manual that you have or can get that may show pics of proper location of regulator.

If you look at the Parts Tree page (below), it shows a bracket, (item number 40) and one bolt, (item number 39). The bracket is attached to the regulator with two bolts.

It would seem that you are looking for a place to attach using one bolt. The wires should be long enough to reach the mounting area, previously used and there should be a piece of the mounting bracket still under the bolt head.

The parts are also available on Parts Tree.

Here is a link that might be useful: PartsTree.com parts diagrams

It almost looks to me as if the remainder of the bracket can be seen mounted to the engine in the first pic of this last group (right side), as well as the second pic, through the bottom hole of the hood (left side of hole).

One other thing, in regard to the JB Weld repair (is that done already?), you can cut a small disc of window screen or fiberglass mesh to cover the hole, before applying the JB. This will give it a little support during the repair.

Try the JB weld,Generally I think the regulators are mounted around the rewind housing area to keep them cool ....Surely your dealer /mechanic can show you where this was originally mounted ??? It should be obvious where it would go (it's on a short leash)....See ya Jim

What do you suppose ever happened to this issue?

As Walt Conner said, "You don't suppose we went for that "hook line and sinker?"".

Phulishone,
If I were you I'd just put the tractor on ebay with no reserve, with a bad engine, and use that as a down payment on a new Cub Cadet 1000 series. The white and yellow paint pretty much guarantees it will sell for at least $200. Do not put any money into this tractor. It may look like a Cub Cadet, but it's not. That's why it only says "Cadet" on the side. It's just a run of the mill MTD, sold with white and yellow paint by Cub Cadet dealers for way more than it's worth. Consumers caught on, and they no longer sell this tractor as a Cub Cadet wannabe. They do sell it, however, as a Troy-bilt Super Bronco, with red paint, for $1299 brand spanking new--significantly less than what you paid 6 years ago, and with a more powerful engine. Check out the link and you'll see something very familiar to you. You'll probably put close to that much money into your mower, trying to fix your holey engine and mystery electrical part, and in the end you'll be left with a 6-year old MTD with a questionable crankcase.
Just accept the fact that you got a good 6 years out of it (not bad for an MTD) and go shopping.
Shopping for tractors is fun. Making major structural repairs to small engines is not.

Here is a link that might be useful: troy bilt super bronco

marineguy,
good job at getting to the heart of the matter. Nice job on the buyer's guide on E-bay.

I have a Toro Time Cutter Z with the same Briggs engine - and the regulator also broke off. Apparently this regulator does make a ground through the mounting bracket. Why do I say that? The other night as my son was pulling the tractor into the shed I noticed something arcing next to the engine. On these zero turn tractors the gas tank is essentially one of the rear fenders and the engine sits next to the tank. In other words the sparks were right under the tank! Of course I had him shut off the engine immediately and then inspected the situation. Sure enough there was that "dangly thing" of such interest in this thread. It had fallen and was arcing on the frame right next to some dry grass clippings just under the gas tank. An explosive fire just waiting to happen. Needless to say I will be doing some work on that tractor before we fire it back up - pun absolutely intended.

What gets me is that a mechanic was going to charge you $600 for something as easy as this to fix. I know that you want to fix it right the first time but he could have offered that as an option to ease the wallet and said no guarantee but you know its all about the dollar...

I think all of us that has briggs engines in our LT need look and see how the regulator is mounted. Evidently the flimsy bracket needs and periodic inspection (like every 10 hours of use or so). IMO this is an safety issue which warrants an timely inspection.

As far as the labor charge at the shop, Most shops feed off the non-mechanic minded customers. Which is probably 90% of there repair work. Us shadetree savvy owners usually find problem long before they do this kind of damage. I would like to know how may hours are on this LT. Looks pretty new and evidently didn't take too many hours for what I can tell by the pictures the shank end of the bolt on the mounting bracket to chafe a hole in the soft al. block. Vibration, chafing, or rubbing parts do wierd things.

This is ther reason Aircraft has hourly and periodic inspections. Chafing and vibration can have serious outcomes.