Virus-indexed own root online vendors?

15 years ago

How does one tell if an online, own root vendor (RU, Chamblee, Vintage, Rogue Valley, Moore's, etc) does virus indexing (or some other proactive measure to grow from virus free roots) or if specific roses out of their long list of available roses are virus-indexed (seems like there might be some designation in the rose name or description.)

I know Heirloom states they work hard at this, but on the website of the other vendors it is hard to find any reference to virus-indexing (or effort to grow own-root roses without a virus) other than the general statement of selling quality roses that are healthy.

I'm a beginner at own-root roses and online ordering. I have heard great things about Heirloom and their virus free plants. I was all set to order but am disappointed that it is going to cost $80 to ship 20 rose bands from Oregon to NV. Probably wont cost them more than $20-$30. I know half the vendors do flat rate shipping, but a number of others attempt to charge you just what it costs to ship. So want to investigate alternatives but want virus free.

Comments (10)

Jean Marion (z6a Idaho)
15 years ago
Not about RMV but about shipping... It's shipping AND handling... I know most places you order a shirt or something and they just toss it in the box...

But Heirloom... It would take them a long time to pack up 20 roses... especially the way they do it to insure that they get to you without being all broken...

So keep in mind that 1) watered plants are heavy and 2) proper packaging is invaluable...

What are the shipping rates for 20 roses with the other vendors you mentioned?
gawlt
Original Author
15 years ago
I went to Rogue Valley Roses which is also based in Oregon like Heirloom so shipping to Nevada should not be that different. I put in a sample order of 20 roses and shipping USPS Priority mail was $17.95 (they figure 22lbs to ship.) Heirloom Roses told me that they figure each rose is 1 lb. I know they want to make ordering easy so they charge a flat rate. Even when I changed the Rouge Valley order to ship to MA it was $43.00. I also understand the argument about handling as it is important that the roses are packed correctly. It just seems that with large orders there should be some economy of scale. Seems like an extra $60 is extreme for handling.
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Sherry, best wishes on your quest for that rose! I think I understand Maryl's point that RMV is neither a guarantee of abysmal performance in a given rose, nor is virus-indexed source a "magic bullet." I've seen quite a few roses I knew were virused never thrive; others do fine initially but then decline. BUT, I agree there could be other factors in why a particular rose is not healthy. RMV just happens to be a good suspect. But like Maryl's example, I've also had a few roses I knew were virused (due to the tell-tale marbled pattern on occasional leaves) that nevertheless performed quite respectably. I've had specimens of Peace and Tiffany that did just fine. I only had mine less than 4 years, so how they would have done after 10 I don't know. If the research literature is correct though, a given RMV-infected specimen will still tend to do significantly worse over several years than that same specimen were it virus-free. Whatever the reason for your CI's failing to thrive, it seems a good chance that the stock is weak for whatever reason. If you replace them with a source that has received good reviews (like RU), I think you'll be happy. I hope they'll have some available soon. If not, you might consider ordering from Northland Rosarium in Washington State. You have to order it specifically for spring, but they have a very good reputation for quality own-root roses, and they do try to screen out RMV-infected stock. As for the potted vs. in-ground issue, I should have mentioned my roses are all potted. I have a suspician I can't prove that own-root roses are happiest when given a chance to develop for a while in a pot with good potting medium, rather than being planted in the ground as a little rooted cutting. Plus, if you're in central or southern Florida, you don't want to plant into the ground unless you're planting China rose varieties or roses grafted onto Fortuniana. Potting the roses and keeping the pot out of direct contact with the soil from the ground will help keep root-rot nematodes from invading the rose's root area. Mike
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If you are interested and willing to search (Google or Bing), check out some of the articles on AGDIA, which is a company that makes tests for viruses and other diseases of plants. You can see the PCR and ELISA tests that are available for roses (and for many other plants.) Do you know the word "Synergy"? Not the new age version, but the science based synergy- there are some interesting plant pathology sites out there as well. Briefly, Synergy means that diseaseA has X symptoms and disease B has Y symptoms, but when a plant has diseases A&B, the plant will not have a simple mix of X and Y symptoms, but often will also have new (call them Z) symptoms that may be worse that the sum of X and Y. Where does that leave rose growers? It leaves rose growers wanting to keep their plants as healthy as possible so that no even more damaging symptoms appear. Years ago a simple study was done in California roses. Under optimum conditions, roses with a single virus (as tested for back then) produced ten to fifteen per cent fewer blooms. That, economically, was reason to keep the plants as clean as possible. And to the root to root transmission: Google Scholar papers by Giolino (author), roses, and the time period last ten years.
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This is a complicated issue. It is no wonder you are confused. It varies according to the variety. Some roses are weak growers, and need the strength of a robust rootstock to enable them to perform. You see this mostly with some (not all) of the HTs. It is my experience that robust own root roses do catch up with grafted roses, but that weak growers do not. Growers in Florida have a nematode in their soil which attacks some rose varieties. Some do fine on their own roots, but others need to be grown on a particular rootstock (Fortuniana) to withstand the nematodes. Roses in cold climates are not really hardier on their own roots. What happens is that the cold can kill off the top growth of a rose while the root protected by the soil survives. If it is on its own roots, it has the potential of growing back true to type. If it is grafted, you will get the rootstock, not the rose you selected. One important issue is virus. Rose mosaic virus (RMV) is spread by grafting. If either the parent plant or the rootstock is virused, the new rose will be virused. Similarly, if you take a cutting from a virused plant and grow it on its own roots, that new rose will also be virused. Some people think that own root roses are less likely to be virused. This can be true, but only if the parent plant was clean. It is thought that healthy own root roses will probably live longer than grafted roses, because grafted roses can build up scar tissue at the graft and eventually fail. But a grafted rose can easily live twenty or thirty years, and no doubt longer. One member on the Roses forum mentioned having some grafted roses that were at least forty years old. I personally suspect that grafted roses will not live as long as some of Jaqueline3's hundred year old teas and chinas, but then most own-root roses don't get a chance to live that long either. Her garden stayed in the same family. If you sell your house, expect the new owners to replace your garden with their own. For this reason, longevity may not be an issue for you. I kinda like the idea of roses that outlive me (and I plan to be here a long time), but that is my romantic streak expressing itself. Rosefolly
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williamcartwright
15 years ago
gaw1, to the best of my knowledge, the roses at Heirloom are not "virus indexed" (if I'm wrong about this I'd appreciate being corrected). I just think they (like many vendors) attempt to sell virus free plants, and guarantee them should one prove diseased.

Vintage is one vendor that has a small minority of its offerings that have been tested to be virus free and are listed "VID" in their online catalogue.

Bill
jerijen
15 years ago
As far as whether a vendor's stock is virused, clean, or indexed, the simplest practice is to ASK THEM.

You'll find some vendors who will say that they "know" a rose is virus-free, because it came from England, or the Continent.
That's not a good answer.

There ARE virused roses in England.
Virused roses were sent from the U.S. to "across the pond." And virused roses have come back to us.
I, and others, have bought roses propagated from imported stock, and found them to be virused.

If, OTOH, they say that they have brought in virus-indexed stock, or if they say that their stock is tested virus-free, then you're probably home free.

Jeri
len511
15 years ago
I know vintage puts vid after the name of their rose. I wouldn't be too concerned with virused roses from own-root nurseries. If the mother plants are virused, they will probably detect it, or at least wonder why the cuttings aren't growing well, etc. If the mother plant is virused it might not be as vigorous, especially with the stress of all the cuttings. but some roses have had a reputation of so many of the plants to be virused, like peace, that they do the vid. probably more so for themselves, that the plant has the vigor needed for propagation. the shipping costs are mostly the handling charge. that's why you do need to compare vendors, and sometimes it does make a difference how many roses you order. field grown grafted roses would be a far bigger risk of virus infected stock than own root. I just wouldn't worry about rmv and then go to a local discounter and make an impulse buy of a body bag rose.
Jean Marion (z6a Idaho)
15 years ago
WOW BIG difference in shipping between Heirloom and Rogue!... and the roses I got from RV this year were great!

(Country Dancer, Incantation and Tricolore de Flandres...)

definitely something to ponder...
mgleason56
15 years ago
Most vendors will put "VID" after the name of the rose if it is virus indexed. Try Appalachain Rose Nursery as they sell quite a few VID roses. Call and ask which ones are indexed before ordering.

Here is a link that might be useful: Appalacain Rose Nursery
patricianat
15 years ago
If I understand correctly and I think I am, Heirloom was the premiere company who was doing virus indexing.
gawlt
Original Author
15 years ago
Thank you all for the education on VID, virus indexing and testing virus free. It is exactly what I was looking for. Now I can have an intelligent conversation with the people on the phone.
anntn6b
15 years ago
If you want to learn about Virus Indexing, google ELISA + plant + test + assay. The test's name is E.L.I.S.A. and last I heard there were eight different rose viruses that could be tested.
There are kits or the test can be done by the folks who developed the kits. I know Appalacahian took roses to be tested.
There are two sources for roses that have been through heat treatment to remove the viruses known (seen by visual inspection, roses that failed to stay clean when grafted onto a particular cherry stock or onto a very susceptible rose stock). J&P used to have a heat treatment facility; it's been closed for several years. Malcolm Manners in Floriad has heat treated a number of old roses and has shared his cleaned plants with a number of nurseries. UCDavis also maintains blocks of certain roses and rootstocks that are tested and are kept free of viruses.

There are some other schemes for cleaning up roses and other plants, but they are in the scientific reporting stages. (Like cellular propagation of apical meristems into which the viruses are slower to move...theoretically.)

Virus-indexed own root online vendors?

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Jean Marion (z6a Idaho)

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Virus-indexed own root online vendors?

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