Thanks everyone for your help. "The patient" is in a row with two c. kousas which are doing well, and I have a cornus florida on the front lawn (level) in full sun that's just gorgeous right now. I wonder if maybe it might be getting too much water with the runoff from the gutter's downspout nearby--maybe mulching it would keep it from the extremes of plenty of water to not enough? Thanks again.

I wouldn't expect it to be a too-much-water situation on a slope, but without us being there and seeing what's going on, you would probably be a better judge of that than any of us.

"Site Requirements: Partial shade; moist well drained soil"

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/trees-new/cornus_florida.html

"Culture
Light: Partial or broken shade is best, but flowering dogwood can tolerate full sun, too. It does best with some shade in the south and full sun in the north."

http://www.floridata.com/ref/c/cornus_f.cfm

"Prefers organically rich, acidic soils in part shade. Benefits from a 4-6" mulch which will help keep roots cool and moist in summer. Difficult to transplant from the wild."

http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/plantfinder/Plant.asp?code=C280

"Likes partial shade; moist, acid, well-drained soil."
http://www.arborday.org/treeguide/treeDetail.cfm?id=1

"... the farther north you live, the more sun your dogwoods can take ... the farther south you live, the more your dogwood should be shaded from blistering afternoon sun, particularly during summer..."

Southern Shade; A plant selection guide by Joe Kellum P.102

"Dogwoods prefer shade in the hottest parts of the day but thrives on morning sunlight."

http://www.tytyga.com/category/Flowering+Dogwood+Trees

"...flowering dogwood tree prefers a spot in your landscaping where it can stay cool, in the shade. "

http://landscaping.about.com/cs/lazylandscaping/a/shade_plants.htm

As Brandon said, its highly unlikely to be a problem with too much water unless its right at the bottom of the slope. Water is more likely to have trouble infiltrating on a slope than it is to infiltrate too much, even with the downspout directed toward it. Now soil erosion near the base MIGHT be a problem due to the downspout... or of course any toxic chemicals from the roof which might be leaching off. Though I haven't ever heard of that latter problem.

Mulch would likely be a good idea, to keep it from drying out too much, given its position on a south-facing slope.

Cheryl, I'm not sure what your last post is about unless maybe that Cornus florida has a preference for shade in warmer climates. If that's the point, it's misguided in this situation. Cornus florida consistently thrives here in Tennessee in full sun. In fact, they frequently do much better in full sun where they are less susceptible to dogwood anthracnose (the most serious disease of this species in this area). Providing proper moisture levels, especially during unusual drought periods or before root system establishment, is important, but planting in shade is really not necessary. These are even planted along roads and interstates (probably not the best of ideas) around here, as well as being an extremely popular front yard tree.

Here in dullsville they grow in sun but often roll up in summer, as do many Kousa. In a blazing summer area worse problems could certainly be encountered due to sun exposure.

But the west has quite dry summer periods, even where we are.

Tree may have a problem other than sun burn, particularly if infected or infested with something removal might be best option.

Cheryl,
Sorry if you don't believe us. But I will believe what I see with my own eyes, as opposed to what you think you know about the mid-south. I have also seen them planted along roadways here as well, and managing. You are aware that C. florida grows to the Gulf Coast? That far south I would think it could need shade, but in Central and North Arkansas at least, they do not. I can't say about south Arkansas, I am not there enough. Brandon sees the same in Tennesse.

I have to ask, have you been to either state? If so, where and for how long? As that could have a big impact on your perceptions.

Arktrees

My neighbor has a c. florida in his front yard full sun (at least 10 of sun/day in the summer. Beautiful tree with heavy flowering the 2 years we have lived here. I live in central AR in a region that has among the warmest summer weather in the state.

Cheryl, you seem knowledgeable about many things probably in part due to your many experiences. This may be one situation where others have more direct experience than you.

OP: Cut it back to green bark or lower and leave it for the rest of the year. You can transplant it this fall or next spring while dormant.

Honestly, because of size, it would be easier to trash it and purchase then plant a new one. That is what I would do.

From the ARKANSAS Forestry Commission's tree guide
"Preferred growing site: Shady, moist sites with excellent
drainage."

http://www.forestry.state.ar.us/pdf/treeguide.pdf

Preferred does mean ONLY

Yep, probably copied from some other source by someone, like you, without knowledge of the subject. If you ever do get to this part of the country, stop by the UT Arboretum out in Oak Ridge. I can show you rows of Cornus florida, in test plots, doing just great right on hills, in full sun, and without any supplemental watering or any babying at all. Of course, on the way, you'll pass by thousands of yards with dogwoods doing great in full sun. Maybe you might stop by a few of the homes and tell the owners to move their trees before they die. Some have only been in the ground for a few decades, so it might not be too late to save them.

Hey Cheryl, do I know you? I just now realized you remind me of someone else. Hmmm....what's your opinion of RoundUp?

Cheryl,
To be blunt and too the point. Your stance that you know more about an area, and location than the very people that live there is extremely arrogant and offensive. Since you did not answer the question as to whether you have been to Arkansas or Tennessee, and if so where and for how long, I am left to assume you have not been. Frankly I do not care what you "THINK" you know. Clearly in this case, it is not correct.

Arktrees

Trying to grow dogwood trees in environments that are too dissimilar from their natural environment causes the trees to become stressed, which leaves them more susceptible to insect infestation and infection from disease.

"Flowering dogwoods evolved in forests as understory trees. Understory trees fill a unique niche in a forest, coming between large, mature trees and the herbs and wildflowers below. In this microclimate, dogwoods receive filtered sunlight, high humidity, and protection from drying winds. Leaf litter that falls to the forest floor annually benefits the dogwoodâÂÂs shallow root system."

snip

"A home lot or commercial site is an environment far more stressful than the dogwoodâÂÂs natural forest habitat. For example, soil around construction sites is almost always disturbed, with subsoil often being the only rooting habitat present. There is also reflected light and heat from brick walls and concrete, not to mention the absence of shade. Lacking a proper environment, flowering dogwoods are sometimes difficult to establish. "

snip

"Environmental stress factors such as sunscald (dogwoods are thin-barked trees), moisture deficiency, and temperature extremes also weaken dogwoods, making them prone to insect attack."

snip

"The major stress factors affecting flowering dogwood are unusually cold winters, wet springs, and hot, dry summers."

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/id/id67/id67.htm

Coopertive Extension service
University of Kentucky
College of agriculture
pub id67
The Flowering Dogwood

I'm sure all those poor dogwood trees will be stressed and unhappy to know that they have been dead all this time.

Arktrees

Anyway, returning to the OP: Dan's default is improper planting.

Dan

...and maybe less aftercare than required.
____________________________________________

Well, know I know who Cheryl is. I can't believe I haven't figured it out sooner. I feel "slow". LOL

Cheryl, don't forget to come and save all the millions of vigorous, healthy trees that are on the verge of death and just don't realize it. (-:

Flaming contributes nothing to thread.

Neither does someone insisting they know more than the local population, despite apparently having never been there. I have been over much of western Washington state (west of the Cascades), but I don't pretend to be an expert as to what does well there and in what conditions. In fact, I stay away from those question. But at least I've been there, and know my limitations.

To the OP, it has been my personal experience that dogwoods are a bit slow to get "established". Therefore you might keep that in mind over the next few years.

Arktrees

"Do not plant the tree in full sun conditions, or it will die."

Read more: How to Plant a Dogwood Tree : Garden Guides http://www.gardenguides.com/79921-plant-dogwood-tree.html

"dogwoods do not easily adapt to wide variations in light conditions."

http://www.usna.usda.gov/Gardens/faqs/dogwoodfaq2.html
United States Arboretum

"Trees planted in full sun can be stressful, making them more susceptible to dogwood borers and heat stress. For care of flowering dogwood trees, dogwoods that are planted in full sun must also rely on frequent watering, especially during hot conditions."

http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/trees-shrubs/caring-dogwood-trees.htm

"Best results will be obtained when dogwoods are planted in association with larger trees that provide moderate shade."

http://www.masternurseries.com/dogwood_how-to.html#Planting%20Site

"Prefers partial shade and slightly acidic soil but tolerates both dappled and full shade and other soil media. Keep moist."

Canadian Wildlife Federation
http://www.wildaboutgardening.org/en/features/section5/dogwood/dogwood.htm

The truth lies in the middle between the two viewpoints.

No, really it doesn't. There's reality which is clearly evident on a massive scale here, and then there's the stuff Cheryl is finding which simply doesn't apply to the situation. Her complete lack of experience combined with a completely closed mind doesn't make reality partial wrong.

I've worked with with hundreds of Cornus florida planted in full sun, many on pretty fast-draining, gravely soil, that are completely healthy and doing great.

I could probably find something written for deserts that said grass would not survive unless watered daily. If I made that argument to someone trying to grow grass around here, I wouldn't be right, or partially right. I would just be wrong, like Cheryl.

bboy, you are one of the posters I pay attention to, as you have been very knowledgeable and try very hard to be helpful. However in this case the truth does not lie in the middle. Thousands of thriving dogwoods in full sun in Arkansas, and apparently Tennessee says they are fine in full sun in at least these two states, and probable further north. How much further south this is true, I do not know. There are three posters confirming widespread success with full sun planting for Cornus florida for Arkansas and Tennessee most without supplemental watering. They also grow happily natively along margins of wooded areas in full sun. As I stated above, I make no pronouncements about western Washington even though I have been there, because those that live there know far better than I. Conversely those that live here know far better what does well here and in what conditions. Eyes win.

Arktrees

PS. Hopefully, Remontant has gotten some ideas about what to do and has taken the red-herring arguments with a huge grain of salt. I've got a feeling just looking around at dogwoods in his/her area will shed some light on the shady argument (puns intended).

"Again being in full sun, there is greater stress on the root systems"
Posted by arktrees 6b NWArkansas (My Page) on
Thu, Dec 30, 10 at 12:00
gardenweb.com
Annoying pink dogwood

"Exposure often refers to strong persistent drying winds/sun. If a plant is planted at the top of a hill that is battered by strong persistent cold north winds most all winter long, then that is exposed. IF it planted between houses where the wind funnels, then that is exposed. If there is a wall, hill, tree, or some structure that blocks this wind, it would be sheltered. "
"So if the site does not have have a wind problem, then you probable can plant a kousa without problem."
Posted by arktrees 6b NWArkansas (My Page) on
Sat, Aug 15, 09 at 23:20
A couple questions about kousa dogwoods
gardenweb.com

"Never depend on just one source, and evaluate the reliability of sources, when possible. "
Posted by brandon7 6b (like 7b now) TN (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 23, 10 at 15:23
Tree planting questions
gardenweb.com

"It's always helpful to know the location when choosing trees. What does well in one area may not do well in another. One zone 7 area may be very different than some other zone 7 area. "
Posted by brandon7 6b/7b TN (My Page) on
Thu, Mar 3, 11 at 0:10
replacing our bradford pear
gardenweb.com

LOL, Cheryl! None of that says anything in relationship to this thread. They do not say that they will not do well in full sun, and they are out of context. Also there are three sources here that are saying the same thing. Three sources that live in similar climate conditions. Your wrong, you know not of what you insist that you do, GET OVER IT. Happens to everyone.

Arktrees

I think she may have been out in the sun WAY TOO LONG herself! Maybe she needs some shade. ROFL

"They would prefer to be in the shelter of taller, larger canopied trees rather than out in an open, exposed location. A situation that provides filtered or dappled shade or some sort of protection from hot afternoon sun is equally desirable. "

gardenweb.com
posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on
Tue, Aug 11, 09 at 22:53
A couple questions about kousa dogwoods

Cheryl,
Yeap, gardengal doesn't live here or near here, nor Tennessee either. Fail!!! Try some more! Talk about a waste of time.

Arktrees

While driving to my worksite today, I passed sooo many dogwoods doing great in full sun. Then when I got there, there was a large dogwood (about 30' tall) that was dead and had to be removed. While cutting it up, I was thinking to myself...yep, the sun finally got to this one. LOL

Mercy sakes, I leave the thread for a couple of days and found it's exploded. Really, everyone has been most kind and concerned to try and help me with my problem, which I agree is my own fault, my own most grievous fault. It has been considerate of everyone to research the subject and try to provide me some solutions. The tree is in the side yard at the top of a short west-facing slope of no more than a three-foot drop. Morning sun hits it around 8:00 this time of the year and the neighbor's giant spruce starts shading it around 3:30 p.m. Our house is 70 years old and three blocks from the Square, so the soil has not been disturbed due to construction for a while. As I said, the two kousas about six and twelve feet away are happy but I did more soil amendments (raised the bed a bit) when I planted them. Obviously I should have babied c. florida as much! I also forgot to mention that I have some gallica roses running in the end of the bed where c. florida is so they are doubtlessly competing with c.f.'s roots.
I will cut back to green wood, dig out the gallicas, water faithfully, mulch deeply and hope for better things. (And probably give up and move the poor little thing to the back yard come late fall.)
Now let's all shake our dirty-fingernailed hands like the gentlemen and gentlewomen we are, OK, and go back to the garden. :-)

Remontant,

You should almost never amend soil when planting woody plants. If you'll do a search of the forum, I think you'll find countless examples of where this practice led to problems or the death of the tree or shrub. See the link below for proper planting procedures. I think it is one of the more complete and concise guides I know of. A number of Tree Forum peeps helped put it together. Let me know if you have any questions while reading it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Planting a Tree or Shrub

Just an instinctive question inspired by the question of something toxic running off the roof.
Was the roof possibly treated to kill moss? I favor the toxic possibility unless there is a lot of heat reflected off the side of the house? That can make it much hotter for the tree.

"Planting
dogwoods in full sun without
irrigation is a major contributor
to stress that may cause plants to
die after transplanting, or may be
more likely to be invaded by
dogwood borers."

P.17 "Dogwoods for American Gardens
Agricultural Extension Service
The University of Tennessee
PB1670

"Since dogwoods tend to be shallow-rooted, they can be prone to drought stress when grown in full sun conditions. Full morning sun and afternoon shade is ideal."

Division of Agriculture
Agricultural Extension Service
The University of Arkansas
FSA7564

Read your own quotes "CAN BE", and "MAY". Do you even understand what that means? I doubt 2 weeks ago that you could even find Arkansas or Tennessee on a map without some kind of help. We know you have never been here, yet you think your an expert on both states. FAIL!!! TRY SOME MORE!!!!! Hate to think how much time you are wasting. We know you can't tolerate being dead wrong. But not matter how much you can stand it, it doesn't change the fact that you are in fact WRONG. As stated previously, GET OVER IT!

Arktrees

Well I don't know about Arkansas and Tennessee, but my understanding is that Cornus florida is normally an understory tree. However, they also seem to grow well in full sun in the landscape around this area.

There is a healthy 30+ year old Cornus florida growing in front of one of the properties I manage, in full sun, southern exposure, and against the building and along a sidewalk where it collects heat. Also, it has received little irrigation. I have no idea what cultivar this is, but it's a beauty. This pic is from 3 years ago, and this Spring looks like it's shaping up to be a great flowering year too (flower buds are just opening now).
{{gwi:347012}}

Cheryl,
A friend of mine was kind enough to take a picture of their Cornus florida located in full sun, in Fayetteville Arkansas. This tree is not watered at any time, even during drought. That includes the 6 weeks or so of last summer where it did not rain and temps were near 100 degrees. This picture is from today (a cloudy day) 4-19-2011 of a poor dogwood tree located in the unrelenting sun of the south. Look how the poor thing is suffering and nearly dead.

{{gwi:347014}}

Cheryl, aka Iforgotitsonevermeind, aka Musicalperson, aka Gardningrandma, aka haroldandcher17220@yahoo.com, aka haroldandcher17220@sbcglobal.com,
Is this kind of stuff why you have to keep changing your screenname?

If only that energy was put into posts that could help people out!

Let's call a spade a spade and call cheryl a troll and move on :) I mean flashing bold underlined posts... Really?

whaas,
Take it up with Cheryl. We have all tried to help, and have tried to put out accurate information. Therefore the energy that was put into these posts by Brandon and myself were done in an attempt to help someone else by giving them real, accurate information. I have done my best to help you on several occasions with the caveat that I am much further south, and what I see can not be taken as total truth there (What sugar maple did you choose anyway?). However when someone persists in trying to tell the people that live in a location (i.e. Brandon and myself), how things are there, spreading FALSE information, then you FREAKING bet I take offense. You know better than I about Wisconsin, same for Ken, but I know better about Arkansas, Brandon knows better about Tennessee. I routinely keep quiet on subjects I don't know about, but this is not one of those. Same thing happened a couple weeks ago with Cheryl on a thread about Paperbark Maples in full sun (mine is and did great last year in a very tough year). If people didn't like reading these posts, then they could tell self-righteous can't be wrong Cheryl to put a sock in it, or just don't read the thread. In short, keep your judgement.

Arktrees

It is really too bad we don't have a "block user" function on these boards. I commend you for keeping up the fight, Arktrees. I became way too tired of the same old cheryl to pay attention to her anymore. She knows she is wrong and is just posting to get everyone all riled up imo

Arktrees (aka j0nd03) and Brandon,

Why do you say that I'm not entitled to my opinion and that I should keep my judgment to myself?
Does this forum belong to you?

Anyone that you don't agree with need not reply?
Sorry, that's not how it works.

It's pretty clear that I haven't been giving my opinion. I've been posting quotes from sources across the web. Including very reputable and relevant sources such as the Universities of Arkansas and Tennessee. I haven't found any that recommend planting a dogwood in full sun or in an open exposed area.

I even posted a quote where you, yourself agreed in another thread.

Rather than counter with evidence that supports the claim dogwoods do best in full sun, you've responded with insults in an effort to provoke me into some kind of fight as you alluded to in your most recent reply.

And arktrees, you and your sockpuppet j0nd03 constantly claim to be an expert in other areas outside of Arkansas.

This thread doesn't have anything to do with Arkansas. The OP is in Tennessee and as Brandon pointed out in the "one zone 7 isn't the same as another zone 7 " quote, who cares about Arkansas?

Just like you were an expert on Virginia weather a week ago when you were proven very, very wrong about that. If you don't like what someone else has to say, you CAN ignore them. Just ignore them. It's that simple. But be forewarned, if you go spouting misinformation, don't be surprised when someone calls you out on it.

And Whaas, you really don't want to get involved in this one. You used to post hundred newbie threads a day and you've received a LOT of help. Try saying "thanks" once in a while.

Actually Cheryl, I do not pose as and expert. Never have. Have given opinion, and reasons for those, but never said I was an expert. I also was not wrong about the paperbark maple, as it's in my own yard. I noted that my experience was different, at which point you again set out to "prove" me wrong. Problem was that you were again wrong about the weather in Virginia vs NW Arkansas last year, and you failed to prove me wrong. I'm sure you understand nothing of weather patterns as well. Zone 7 Arkansas, Tennesse, and Virgina etc are all very similar. And my tree is thriving today. Dogwoods the same story, you insist you know better despite not having been here. Now your arguing with photographic evidence. The only one that thinks you are right is you.

"But be forewarned, if you go spouting misinformation, don't be surprised when someone calls you out on it."

You need to pay attention to your own advice, because mis-information is exactly what you have been spouting, and you are being called on it, which is exactly what YOUR problem is.

Oh, and in way of basic ecological education. Understory trees are often understory trees because that is where they are most competitive. Meaning that they can compete well against anything else that can grow in the shade. That does not mean they can't grow in the sun. Often they can, but in a natural competitive environment, they get out competed by the Oaks,, Maples, vines etc. Therefore that is not where you most often find them, but it does not preclude them from growing in full sun. Some species, that will be the case. But here Redbuds, Paperbark Maple, Triflorum Maple, Many Japanese Maples, and others do well in sun. Scarlet Oaks are found mostly on dry Ridge tops in their native range. Why? Because they can outgrow most anything else that can grow in that environment, even though they are perfectly fine in most any responsibly draining soil. But you rarely find them growing there naturally, because they get out out competed.

Seems Brandon nailed your multiple identities since you seem to think I'm j0nd03, who I have never meet in person. As I recall you claimed Sugar Maple could not grow well in full sun of Tennessee either, until I showed you the natural distribution map. The problem here is that you can't tolerate being dead wrong and everyone knowing it.

Arktrees

I rarely post in the trees forum, but this Cheryl person is cracking me up and I couldn't resist. Hey Cheryl, can you and I fight? You pick the topic. I'll make silly comments and you can quote "reputable" sources from the internet in response without offering any analysis of your own. It'll be fun. I'll wait for you to go first. I've got my popcorn and my soda and am hunkering down for an afternoon of entertainment.

P.S.

I live in Missouri, and we have lots of dogwoods planted in full sun around here. In fact, most of them that I see in landscapes are in full sun and doing fine. In the wild, they are understory trees. When grown as an understory tree, they are taller and thinner, whereas a Cornus Florida grown in full sunlight will tend to have a wider/shorter habit. The tree seems well adapted to either situation in this area, as evidenced by the fact that even novice gardeners seem more than capable of growing them.

I'm getting a good chuckle off this thread, albeit because some commenters are inadvertently hilarious - but that's one form of comedy, surely. Sadly, its not durable humor.

And I think it is patently obvious that some people are not credible on this topic and can be ignored, saving others energy. I doubt too many searchers in the future will land on this thread and be misled by the non-credible commenter either.

Dan

arktrees, no worries my post was directed towards AKA, lol.

The Sugar maple is still up in the air. Was going to get a little baby species but the plant looked unruly. I'm either going Fall Fiesta or Green Mountain...although I saw some nice Legacy cultivars the other day as well.

FYI...I had a Cornus Kousa 'Wolf Eyes' and Paperbark maple in west sun. Both where looking good to me!

whaas,
Sorry for mis-understanding you. My apology. FWIW, use Google Patents to download a pdf of the patent for Bailsta (unfortunately the one for Green Mountain has expired and no longer available, not sure about Legacy). I think it might help you decide.

Arktrees

lol accusing me of being an alt account

Anyone that uses an alt account on gardenweb has failed at life. Sorry if this includes anyone that has posted in this thread.