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Well yes naturally I would think so but if not... I never have any problems with my compost. I wear gloves.

If it is necessary for one to be on immunosuppressants I would imagine there are a lot of things one should refrain from doing. I would think the prescribing doctor should be mentioning this as well.

Lloyd

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Strange - I don't have an account there, but I can see the post.

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Can't see anything, I have to log on. But anyways why wouldn't you compost? Your doing what nature does by itself but just help speeding the process along.

Is this the article you were referring to?:

Compost
Mark Crislip, MD, Infectious Diseases, 12:25AM Jun 24, 2014

The patient is an older male on methotrexate amd 5 mg a day prednizone for rheumatoid arthritis. He comes in with fevers and a non-productive cough for several days. CXR shows an upper lobe consolidated infiltrate with some question of hazy nodules.

Usual workup for a community acquired pneumonia is negative: gram stain is WBC and no organisms, blood and sputum cultures are negative and urine Legionella is negative.

I am asked to see him and find that he is a gardener and just had a large load on compost delivered that he spread around the garden. Hmmmm.

I have had a few infections I think were related to composting: a Nocardia sternal wound infection and a large inhalational Aspergillus pneumonia.

My wife is an obsessive gardener and loves to run all the yard debris through a chipper-shredder into her compost pile. For some reason she always looks longingly at me during the end of the movie Fargo.

I wondered about Legionella, but it was peat moss, not compost, that I remembered as a risk.

According to Steele et al., potting soils are made from different products. In Australia, they tend to consist of composted waste products such as sawdust and hammer milled bark while in Europe peat moss is a major component. It is indicated that the use of different products emanating from wood could facilitate the occurrence of different Legionella bacteria in potting soil. In some parts of Europe, potting soils have bark soil as a component. However, studies from Switzerland have shown that Legionella spp. could also be present in potting soil containing peat moss.

And the PCR on the bronchoscopy was positive for Legionella.

My memory was faulty: compost and potting soils are a source of Legionella, mostly Legionella longbeachae and

Infection with this species will not be detected by current urinary antigen tests and will be missed by laboratories that perform serological assays only for L. pneumophila.

Most of the cases are reported in the land down under. The PCR does not identify which Legionella it is, but I bet Legionella longbeachae, especially as there was no good water source for an exposure. He improved rapidly in a quinolone.

And as the first reports of Legionella from 1984 note, it can cause nodules.

Infiltrates were typically segmental to lobar; nodular infiltrates were noted in three cases.

Spring is here and with it will come Legionella, not only from thundershowers but in gardeners.

Hopefully this helps.

Rodney

Ah, see that is when you buy compost, you never know what could be in there, but if make it and you can screen what you put in there, I mean don't put toxic things in it, I don't see how it can be bad.

The stress from reading all the warnings on Gardenweb is wrecking my health.

Honey, where is my Xanax?

I would not be surprised if this has happened. People out West get pneumonic plague in very small numbers from rodents every year. There are tick diseases right here in MO and all over the central US. I saw a talk a couple months ago on a little known soil borne disease affecting construction workers in the Southwest US. And so on.

The question is how many, and what percent of potential exposure incidents result in infections.

"A few infections I think were related to composting"

=

Probably warrants further research, but hardly a statistically significant study of any kind.

So I am cautiously interested, but not hollering that the sky is falling.

As someone who lives with an immunosuppressed patient, yes, soil is full of bacteria. Aspergillius causes lung infections and is basically omnipresent, but not really problematic for people with normal immune systems. Fungi and bacteria are everywhere really - in the garden, in the dust on your television, floating in the air. Generally, you don't want to get soil/compost in an open wound, or breathe in lots of dust if you're tilling your soil. But particularly if you have health problems, and definitely if you are on immunosuppressants. We were told that he should wear a mask and gloves and shoes while gardening.

All my experience with these issues has led me to seek a balance and try to be reasonable with regard to the circumstances. I have a normal immune system so I don't fixate and worry too much- but we do take extra precautions for him. In fact, my new mantra is, if you aren't sick, be glad, don't worry and enjoy it! If you are sick, then do what you need to do and find a way to enjoy the things you love, however you can.

my 2 cents. ;)

Why on earth would anyone not realize that compost, or garden soil, could have bacteria and fungi in it that might cause some people problems. For those of us with lung diseases, COPD (Asthma, Emphysema, Chronic Bronchitis) simple precautions such as wearing an N-95 dust mask might be all that is needed, however, that does depend on the disease and its status. For some gardening, including making compost, may be something in the past.

Thinking about it I have more of allergic reaction to the dry garden soil in my planter box, then the compost bin. The compost being wet seems to keep me from inhaling anything. Its like the president who said I didn't inhale. I made compost, but I did not inhale.

scary......

Here is a link that might be useful: man dies from mold in compost

Not really - the risk is low, can be mitigated by sensible precautions if you're in a susceptible group and there are a lot bigger things to worry about in life. Look up stats for death from traffic accidents to put these stories into perspective. But do you still drive a car? Risk evaluation is the name of the game and we are often not very good at it.

well put floral_uk. my experience with illness has made me realize how much time we can waste worrying about getting sick - when you actually are sick, and you'd give anything to be healthy, it sure seems like a silly hobby. ;) we have to worry a little extra around here because of the SO's condition (he is on immunosuppressants) - but i try very hard to not become an outright neurotic germaphobe. i try....

there are literally germs everywhere - on the flipside, we live in an extraordinarily complex ecosystem which is pretty rad. oh and the only reason we're alive to witness it btw.

i bet gardening adds much more to quality of life than it risks overall. don't they say gardeners live longer? ;)

Most materials I handle are damp, so no spores floating out. The bags that the fellow opened were dry enough inside to allow a lot of material to get airborne. Something to be aware of and watch out for.

I try to be very aware of what I might be breathing in, all the time.

Check out what may end up being 2014's biggest story of the year. Aspergillus may be a bad guy, but it could be a useful bad guy to fight worse bad guys.

Here is a link that might be useful: Antibiotic resistance

Damp compost can be a good place for Black Mold to live and grow just as a damp wall in your house is. Assuming that keeping what you are handling damp will keep mold spores from moving about indicates a lack of knowledge about the whole process.

The mold stage is a stage in compost break down. It's not harmful.

Sure, mold makes spores when it's wet. But you can't deny that a dry compost pile is more dusty than a wet one, so the inhalation of fine particulates is comparatively lower. Not zero.

BTW, Pseudomonas has been a problem in hospitals in recent years. Guess what, it's a common soil bacteria.

Soil is a great waste disposal and nutrient recycling machine. Of course it's full of microbes. Same as the compost. Just use common sense.

Mold is ubiquitous in nature. You inhale thousands of these spores every day. Your soil is teeming with it. Unless you have major underlying health problems, if you are going to not compost because of this you may as well not venture outdoors because you may be struck by lightning.

Allergies to molds are common and needless to say you should avoid breathing in a face full of compost, duh.

My lungs are compromised. My husband and I turned a huge compost pile today, in fact. When we arrived at the spot I saw these shrooms growing on the top. They were probably poisonous as all get-out but they had an awesome gothic look. This type of moisture is not normal for our area. We could easily smell the compost. I got excited because having shroom compost is a garden delicacy in our quasi-desert.

I stopped, put down the fork and looked at my husband. "We'll need the bandanas, today"

We got-r-done. Common sense.

My kids' Dr asked "Do they play in the dirt?" Me "I live in the country, so yes!" DR. "good! It's good for them! The main thing is to keep up on tetnus living around horses"
He also pooh poohed antibacterial soaps due to bugs becoming immune to antibiotics.
This was 30 years ago!
My FIL (a retired neurosurgeon) also said that the reason things like asthma are on the rise, is because we have become such a sterile environment!
So get out and play in the dirt (except, of course those of you with troubles that don't allow it, then you can go out and enjoy the work of others ;) ) Nancy

I blame the prevalence of 'eww, bugs, germs, danger!' upon the advertisers of cleaning and disinfectant products. Our environment is not sterile, never was and doesn't need to be.

These stories annoy me. On the one hand, yes, if you are immuno-suppressed you should probably pursue hobbies other than 'farming' microbes.

Here's a thought - Compare the number of instances of someone getting ill from compost with the number of people who die every year from infections they picked up in the hospital. Hospitals are much more dangerous than compost piles and they are 'sterile' right?

Then look at the number of people who fall ill from composting or gardening vs the number of people who fall and either die or are seriously injured from slipping in the shower (OK, I shower more because I compost and garden so maybe that increased showering is a composting risk).

Take stories like this in statistical context. Dog bites man does not make the headlines, man bites dog does because it is a rarity.

How many ER cases are related to the use of pesticides and herbicides - the inherent risk of a chemical gardening regimen, versus the number of cases from organic methods. 100:1? 1000-1? My best friend has been an ER doc for 30 years, he is a poison expert by training and due to experience in the ER. In the last ten years he has had ONE composting case when some complete idiot got distracted and drove a very dirty tine from his composting fork through his foot and needed it cleaned out and an antibiotic prescribed.

Yes, my foot, my stupidity. I'm dumb enough to put a metal spike through my foot but not dumb enough to believe that composting is more dangerous than spraying toxins around the yard.

A strong immune system is the best insurance against infections (although it doesn't hurt to keep the tetanus shot up to date).

I avoid anti-bacterial soaps, figuring they just facilitate bacteria mutating & becoming resistant to our drugs.

Plain soap, garden soil, & dog slobber are likely the best things for your immune system!

Dog slobber smoothies every morning for a healthy immune system! :-D

For those with conditions requiring the taking of meds (methotrexate for example) to suppress the immune system, stimulating the immune system is not what they want.

This is what the linked story is about. A person taking an immuno-suppressant and then getting sicker because he exposed himself to something that his suppressed system could not fight off. People on these often life saving meds should be made aware of this by the prescribing doctor and not take medical advice from a compost forum.

Lloyd

Sorry, double post.

Lloyd

This post was edited by pt03 on Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 13:40

Thanks Lloyd. I think that's what's important here - folks with normal immune systems should enjoy their dog slobber. Folks on immunosuppressants (for organ transplants for instance) should talk to their doctors. We had a training session where they told us all the things to avoid - including no deli meats (listeria), no scooping cat litter (toxoplasmosis), wearing a mask/gloves/shoes while gardening (aspergillus among others), and generally avoid small children if possible at least at first, and anyone with cold or flu. Oh, and sunscreen! (increased risk of skin cancer) Also, keep a mask with you in case you are stuck in line at the bank with someone sneezing everywhere.

Anyone who is on the intense immunosuppressant regimen gets this kind of training (I hope) and yes, for these folks, you don't want to stimulate the immune system and cause rejection of the donor organ. It's very strange to deal with trying to NOT strengthen one's immune system - but this is a special case, like the OP's article.

Everyone else: don't worry too much! And use reasonable hygiene practices. (Washing hands is a good idea - anti-bacterial soap doesn't matter - but washing for 30 seconds with any soap does make a difference.)

(slowjane - trying not to become a germaphobe in spite of it all! lol)

I play in my compost all the time, no problems for me. DD OTOH, has done the methotrexate/prednisone and moved on to Cyclophosphamide when that didn't work. She has to be continually aware of her surroundings. An infection can easily be fatal. It's difficult for those that are not involved with these kinds of issues to understand, but those of us that are too familiar with it, 'get it'.

Lloyd

"those of us that are too familiar with it, 'get it'. "

Yup ;) We should have a secret handshake. (Used only after a proper handwashing)

You can compost those paper sanitary masks, btw.

/being helpful

//fellow immune-suppressed compostier.

///Grateful Dead hand-extended approach, then slap/ knuckle bump / backhand / fingerslide.

love that handshake! ;)