I stopped wasting my gardening budget on all the new echinacea long time ago. Never purchased dinky things, always were from good reputed local high-end nurseries, and still they were huge disappointments.

I don't have room, budget, nor time to waste on under performers and demanding little darlings when there are many other plants to choose from that return joy and long term survival. Yeah, they're a pretty face and something different to glaze upon in the perennial bed/border, but after many attempts for satifactory results that would be worth the justification of the money and allotted space in the garden I decided they just were not for me. I switched my gardening budget into additional hemerocallis and have been much more happy with the results. Different size, shape and colors galore and a happy healthy long term existance.

i dont understand how you blame the wholesaler or breeder .. for the retailers offering of immature stock????

TN is telling you that you should spend your money on a mature plant ... but you want to save a buck and buy a babe ... and it is problematic ..

so who is to blame????

would you buy a 6 week old cow.. and then complain that it isnt giving you the milk you bought the cow for???

you either have learn how to tend immature babes .. like the potting up suggestion ... or you spend the money on the already mature plant ...

some of you peeps really need to get a more zen attitude about your garden... it is your aerobics and your therapy ... it is not supposed to be something that irritates you to no end.. causing blood pressure spikes .... you need to get to a zen place ...

the basic fact pattern is why i stopped buying state of the art plants.. and until they have been on the market for a few years and proven by others.. they just aren't worth the aggravation.. ooohhhmmmmmmm ... its a zen thing ...

ken

Notice it's always the people who sell these plants who take up for them. LOL. They can't stand it that we are wising up to this scam.

The reason the advice about gallon plants is a joke is because it's simply not true. You can buy a gallon container plant and still have major problems. I bought a larger plant this year and it doesn't look like it will change my mind at all. It's just not as robust as one of the hardy Echinacea plants. I'm finding that Rudbeckia is an excellent alternative though!

You can get lucky and have one of these return. I've had annuals return before, but these don't return like perennials should.

Also...I have Echinaceas coming up from seeds right now. They will over-winter better than these plants we paid up to twenty dollars to own. I have seen seedlings in the fall come up and bloom the following year. These are not strong plants. Why sit here and lie to people? Are your sales more important than your customer's satisfaction.

We are your customers. It's time you start treating us with the respect we deserve. Quit lying and listen to us.

No one is forcing you to buy these plants. And personally, I don't have much interest in whether the nurseries I have worked for that do offer them for sale sell every echinacea plant or not. They are only one of countless hundreds of plants we sell and I still get paid if none of them sell. This is not a commissioned business :-) However, I do find it very interesting that even with a generous return policy, these are NOT plants that are finding their way back to the nursery in distressed or dead condition nor are they the subject of any complaints other than here on GardenWeb. You would think that such "inferior" plants that demonstrate such uniformly poor performance would be being returned in droves - we sure sell enough of them - but they are not. And on a purely personal note, I have had no problems with any of the echinacea I have grown either - they may not be the most robust of the dozens of perennials I grow but they return annually, develop decent foliage and size and bloom appropriately. I've grown many more perennials and other plants that have had more issues than any of my echinaceas have produced.

If you don't like them, don't buy them - it's a simple as that. But it seems like there is a dedicated smear campaign being instituted against these so-called "inferior" plants and I just wanted to make it clear that not everyone has had the same experience or considers them inferior.

Coolplantsguy - I see on your blog that you sell plants.

Please, if you sell these plants say so when you defend them. People need to know why you are defending them so much!

I really think the only answer is to stop being the guinea pig of the new cultivars.

I do indeed work in the industry (and have stated such in other posts), but as gardengal mentioned, I do not make any additional money (i.e. commission or otherwise), from the plants we sell. I'm simply a salaried employee with an interest in plants.

To be blunt, I love plants, in particular those that are "cool", and for me, these new Echinacea are still cool, despite some challenges that a few have experienced.

I also love to share my wee bit o' knowledge and experience with others. What bothers me about most of your posts, echinaceamaniac, is that you present your experience with such a sense of finality and perfect judgement. It must be nice to be so certain! LOL

Here's to dirt under your nails.

Coolplantsguy, I'm 100% certain that these plants are inferior to most other Echinacea cultivars. Many people on here were hesitant about buying Tiki Torch, etc. because we had bad experiences with the Big Sky Series. I decided to give them another chance because Terra Nova was a different company and I didn't want to blame them for the Big Sky mutants. Therefore, I bought 4 of these last year. One over-wintered here in Zone 7 after a mild winter. 75% of these plants failed. I also tested Coconut Lime and 100% returned so it's not like a complete loss for me. LOL. I also tested Paradoxa because I wanted to see if it would grow where Tiki Torch failed. It's blooming like crazy so I still can't understand what's wrong with Tiki Torch. I think it's something to do with the genetics and/or tissue culture.

I should have known better, but I find Echinacea plants hard to resist. The pictures on the sites make them look like they are loaded with blooms, but I've since realized those pictures are fake. They took blooms and put them in an arrangement and took the photos so they are cropped at the bottom and you can't see the plants.

I will continue to give my opinion on the new Echinacea cultivars in the future. I'm testing more of them now as are others. I'm also giving Tiki Torch another chance and planting it in 3-4 different locations. I have purchased a larger plant at a local nursery. I'm also going to over-winter one indoors and see how it does. I did this with Merlot and it's doing good so far but that cultivar is a much better garden plant.

I think there are some valid points on both sides of this discussion, I'm a gal that likes a challenge so I'm I purposely bought plugs to grow on myself, I actually prefer them to gallon size. I am a great believer of the potting on method before planting out. It's certainly not instant gratification the way I do it and sure over the years I've had some failures but have had a lot of successes too.
Echinaceas are fast becoming one of my favorite plants so I want to give these new varieties a fair shake in MY garden before I feel I can give an opinion.

Annette

gardenpal48, your 'generous return policy' means little too many who are disappointed after the policy expires or finds it more trouble than it's worth to bother with it.

For example, most replace/refund for only 30 to 90 days. Not much good when it comes to the 'problem' discovered the following season. Second, for me, I drive 40 to 300 mile round trips on gardening purchases. Hardly worth my time and expense to dig up and haul back. And third, I think you will admit if being fair that many purchases by new and/or inexperienced gardeners would likely have no idea that their 'failure' was not their fault but rather an 'inferior' plant to begin with.

I don't feel using a 'return policy' and lack of returns as fair examples of quality of these plants. And you might also note in your postings that when a sales person approches a customer at a nursery rarely if ever will you find one that will openly discuss the possible faults of a plant. I've visited enough to know better. Commission sales or not, you can't honestly tell me that one would be employed long if your superior overheard you belittling a plant/s or a customers choices.

As with any consumer outlet the nursery is going to carry and stock up on what is new and different than the norm, aka what's new and hopefully 'hot' on the market. Afterall, if they want to stay in business they must depend on repeat customers and if the nursery does not have the newest offerings but instead only the same old boring offerings customers already have in their gardens , the nursery would not get much repeat on 'regular customers'. So to some it up for me, no, I don't have a lot of faith when a employee or someone in the industry assures when we're just all idiot gardeners and these plants are wonderful.

I did not tell anyone else here or elsewhere not to purchase these, I said I stopped purchasing them and wasting my money on them long ago. I garden for pleasure and beauty not bothersome return policies and long trips to do so. To each their own I guess.

Echinaceamaniac, there's always the chance too that some of the newer introductions won't perform well in your climate - that may not be necessarily true for all of us.

If you are in a warmer summer area, did you note on the Terra Nova website the information that Tiki Torch in particular may go dormant in heat, provoking a response to overwater, leading to plant failure?

I couldn't begin to list the plants that are hardy to my mild temperatures but can't withstand the saturated garden soils of my long wet winter - that doesn't mean I've been misled about a plant or that it couldn't be very successful elsewhere, it only means I need to know my own garden and what will work for me.

You wouldn't expect someone in the PNW zone 8 to face the problems most of the rest of us do. I don't know what generous refund policies are offered in some garden centers. At my local garden shops the refund policy is "until the money leaves the customer's hands". Another oddity, wherever I go, garden clubs, blogs, Garden Web, I hear complaints about the newer Echinacea cultivars. I lust after them like most of you but I have learned my lesson and don't waste money on them anymore. As the retailers on this forum have suggested, garden shops don't care if customers buy them and they don't care if the plants disappoint.

morz8,

This plant is listed at Terra Nova's site as hardy to Zones 4-9. Also, these plants never went dormant until winter arrived. They just never came back the following spring.

Terra Nova knows they have a problem.

I think it is the knowing gardener who is silly for buying the plants, not the company for supplying them. And I am not talking about the people that just go and buy something at a nursery because it is 'pretty', but do not have any idea what it is they are buying.

Can you blame a company for selling plants people clamor for? Most gardeners, even otherwise smart gardeners, will keep on buying them even though they know they probably will not have good luck with them. If most of the new cultivars you (i.e. any gardener) have planted did not live or thrive, it is very likely others will not either.

I felt very much 'scammed' when I payed a lot of money for something that did so poorly. I am also of the opinion that the breeders should be ashamed for selling plants that do not survive in the zones they say they are hardy to. But I am on to them now. And that is why I haven't boughten any for years and will not buy any in the future. It is as simple as that.

-echinaceamaniac, I for one do enjoy reading your posts. I know that what thrives for you will likely not do the same for me. But you are passionate about coneflowers, and I like that!
CMK

I too fell wholeheartedly for the colored echinacea's a few years back. Bought Mango Meadowbrite and Orange Meadowbrite (paid top dollar too at my local nursery), put them in a spot where Magnus, White Swan and Rubenstern were thriving for years. These plants are still alive today, I'm happy to report, but they never put out more than 2 or 3 flowers each spring, never grow into a bigger clump from year to year, never get any taller than a foot or so. They in fact look pretty silly next to the large clumps of Magnus and White Swan. Finally had enough this spring and took them out, put in a new Magnus and also a Campanula 'Blue Eyed Blonde' (yep, falling again for the latest color craze, LOL!).
Each year there are newer and more fancy off-color echinacea -- I'm resolved now, I'll be sticking to the tried-and-true purple and white ehcinacea's from now on.

I think what Terra Nova is saying is garbage. I bought both of my Tiki Torches last year in full lush gallon containers from a very reputable nursery. Only one came back and it only has two leaves. All of the other echs in the bed (Pink Double Delight, Raspberry Tart, Virgin, Kim's Knee High, Fragrant Angel, etc) are full lush and starting to bloom.

After all of my vowing to never buy new varieties in the first year, I bought 2 Tomato Soup and 2 Mac N Cheese in quart pots. Just couldn't resist. Same nursery. This was at the beginning of April. Planted one of each in two different parts of my garden where all my other echs thrive. The Tomato Soup looks OK, but I doubt if I will see any blooms this year. The Mac N Cheese looks the same as the day I bought it.

I work at a greenhouse and know how to baby plants and bring them along. But everything I have tried has failed with these two. We don't have the newest varieties at our place because of price. We price all our perennials at $10.50 a gallon and just cannot afford the new fancy ones. However, we have a whole huge supply of Big Sky and can't give them away. Customers continually come back over the last few years complaining about them. Once these are gone, we will not carry them. If they have not sold by years end, they will be pitched.

I understand that not all plants work in all zones and conditions. But usually when I buy a new perennial, it will perform well but just not over winter. And that does not bother me. I just chalk that up to a bad year or not quite as hardy as expected. But when a plant just sits and sits and doesn't grow an inch, that tells me the plant is no good, and that makes me angry. The prices that are charged on these plants is too high for this kind of garbage.

Diane

I posted early this morning and went out for the afternoon and come back and see I've apparently stirred the pot. Ken is it too late to ooooohhhhhmmmmmmm? :-) I do apologize for the zeal with which I expressed my opinions and my frustrations this morning, but I am usually pretty zealous [g] and mean no disrespect. I certainly wasn't directing any of my comments to anyone. I am sorry to say, I still have not changed my opinion on the subject.

Coolplantsguy and Ken, I do have to disagree on whether the instructions given from Terra Nova were 'special' and whether less than a gallon size perennial is 'immature'. I've purchased many, many perennials at one particular nursery in particular for many years, that sold them in a one quart size and have not had a problem with the vigor of a plant in this size and I've not had problems with plants labeled as hardy to my zone 6 not coming back over the winter. I've bought small divisions in 4 inch pots at local plant sales and they have grown beautifully. I've gone to GW plant swaps and been given divisions of perennials that had barely been dug out of the ground the week of the swap and had not had a chance to even establish themselves in their pot and still they have grown beautifully. I've bought perennials in plug sizes for $2. and rarely had a problem and would not complain if I did. As a matter of fact, of three local nurseries in my area that I've shopped at routinely for the past 20 years, I rarely saw a gallon size perennial until recently.

The last echinacea I purchased was from the New England Wildflower Society, and they only sold them in quart sizes for $9. So are you saying that NEWFS doesn't know what they are doing or shouldn't have been expecting these quart size echinaceas to perform? Their Harvest Moon Echinacea did not come back for me over the first winter it was in the ground. Cared for in the same manner as the plugs of Magnus, Primadonna Rose, and Ruby Star that I bought at Green Mountain Transplants for $.55 each. Yes, that is 55 cents each and you know how large a plug is. Bought around the same time, planted in the same area, cared for the same and the .55 cent plants not only came back but looked great, filling out and budding wonderfully in their second year. You can head over to the Green Mountain Transplants website right now and see the varieties of echinacea plugs they sell for 55 cents. I would rather stick with purple and pink time tested echinaceas for 55 cents that actually are a pleasure to grow, responding to my average level of attention and care and rewarding me by doing what a perennial is supposed to do, come back every year in my zone 6 garden, grow at a reasonable rate and bloom. If that is not the standard for bringing a new perennial to market, then there is something wrong.

So Ken, none of what you said applies to my experience but I will accept your suggestion that I may need a more zen attitude. [g] Although in fairness, when I am in the garden, I am more zen-like. It is coming out of the garden where zen goes right out the window. :-)

Gardengal, I am sorry that it was suggested that you are just trying to sell plants and I am sure that is not the case, but here is a perfect example of legitimate criticism and experience of growing these echinaceas being offered and your response is one of disbelief and 'don't buy them then' and suggesting that there is a 'smear campaign' going on. If you [were able to (g)] make a search on GW, I think you would find a number of these threads saying the same thing by different people over the past three or four years. I have to agree with bean counter, that you are basing your view on your experience in the PNW zone 8. I wouldn't think that zone 8 is a test of whether a perennial is hardy in most of the country. The criticism is more than just about whether these new echinaceas are performing, it is about whether a gardener can consider buying a 'new hybrid' anything and depend on it being hardy in their zone and have at least an average chance of success with average care. Especially when you are talking about hybridizing native wildflowers for goodness sake. lol I think this could be valuable information to the industry, that some gardeners are losing their confidence in new hybrids and if no one wants to pay attention to that, then it is an opportunity lost, IMHO.

I'm just saying that it's sort of ridiculous to rail against the new cultivars and then in the same sentence complain, "But I bought two new kinds this year, because I just couldn't resist, and THEY'RE not doing well either."

I was thinking that since these were from Terra Nova that their plants would be better than the Big Sky Series. Terra Nova is supposed to be, according to what I've read, trial their plants for three years all over the world.

If that Big Sky Series releases a new orange coneflower most of us wouldn't think of growing it. I think we were hopeful that Terra Nova was going to deliver for us. At least we did give them a chance to earn our trust.

Justmetoo's earlier comment had me thinking about a very prominent midwestern grower of perennials who was not invited back this year to speak at a very prominent Chicago garden center after last year making comments about some of the plants on the garden center shelves not being good choices for our harsh midwestern weather & soil conditions. I was watching from the crowd the owner's face trying hard not to look angry.

Notice it's always the people who sell these plants who take up for them. LOL. They can't stand it that we are wising up to this scam.

I find this statement rather offensive. Exactly what scam do you think I'm trying to promote? I have no monetary interest in encouraging the sales of the new echinaceas (which btw seem to need no encouragement). I pay good money for them and grow them just like anybody else - that I happen to work in the industry that sells them is entirely incidental to the issue. I just think it is reasonable - and fair - to report that the experiences reported here in rather inflammatory and adamant terms are not necessarily repeated uniformly elsewhere. So you have problems growing these plants. Don't grow them! What the heck is the big deal?? Not all plants will perform uniformly everywhere.

The newer colored echinaceas are hybrids. Often hybrids will not be stable or necessarily as robust as the species that form their parentage. Sometimes they are better than either of the parent plants. The former seems to be the case with these echinaceas. It is not reasonable to assume that they will perform exactly the same as popular cultivars of E. purpurea, to which they may only be tangentially related. The growth habit and cultural conditions of the other species involved in the hybridization are quite different and are obviously influencing how these plants grow. It is similar with some of the newer heuchera and coreopsis introductions as well but there is no huge hue and cry about being "scammed" by breeders/hybridizers regarding these plants.

The demand for new plants in new colors, doubled flowers, reblooming potential or a whole host of other desirable traits keeps hybridizers and plant breeders busy trying to accommodate the fickle tastes of gardeners. Sometimes there are huge successes, sometimes failures and more than a few that fall somewhat in between. But no one is intentionally trying to scam anyone. Caveat emptor - buyer beware. It never hurts to do a little research before running out and buying the newest introductions or waiting a season or two to see just how well that hot new plant performs. But if you have to be the first on your block to have the latest new introduction, then I guess you have indeed thrust yourself into the role of plant guinea pig and that's your choice.

gardengal48:

From Terra Nova's site (A direct quote used to promote Tiki Torch)

1.) "Easy to grow!" - Seriously. LOL.

Just go to their site and click on Tiki Torch. The last sentence they use to describe it is "Easy to grow!"

I don't know of any place that will take a plant back the following year if it doesn't return. Are you saying if I buy these from you, that you'll give me a refund the following spring if it doesn't return? I mean the plant is completely gone. All I can bring to you is the tag and my receipt.

These are also promoted as safe to grow in Zones 4-9.

If you sell these plants, you do have a biased opinion. That's like a used car salesman telling me the lemon I'm about to purchase is a great car and it breaking down when I leave the car lot. You are the used car salesman in this story.

I have to admit after looking at all the beautiful pictures of Tiki Torch i wanted one bad. But after hearing all this i am not so sure i want to spend $10 for this plant. I wonder if my local nursery will give me a 1 yr. warranty.

Well, I DO find them quite easy to grow so I have no objection to that statement. You obviously have had a different experience.

That there is absolutely nothing remaining of the plant the next season after planting would lead me to believe that there were planting issues, most likely drainage problems that led to root rot. Even with 'Art's Pride'/'Orange Meadowbrite', the first and very unstable hybrid of the colored echinaceas, there was a feeble remnant of the plant remaining in my garden that I could have taken back for a refund if I was so inclined. Others that I've planted and grown since then, including Tiki Torch, After Midnight and others of the Big Sky series have returned quite reliably. And bloomed appropriately.

But that's neither here or there. What I find totally uncalled for is the assumption that just because I work in an industry that sells these plants I have some sort of bias. And your comparison of me to a used car salesman is completely invalid. First, unlike the car salesman, I have no sales goals I must achieve nor does my salary depend on what plants I carry in inventory and sell. Nor do I sell "used" plants. And believe it or not, the success of an independent nursery depends on customer goodwill and return visits. I do not push plants on folks I know will not succeed for them and I do caution them on selecting plants that I know to be problematic. I don't know how to say this any more clearly, but I have not found these newer echinaceas any more difficult to grow than many other plants nor have my customers......do you get it?? I can't explain why you seem to have such problems because I don't know the details of your specific situation, but in my area, these plants perform quite reasonably. They are not lemons, they are not some part of some hybridizer/plant breeder conspiracy to defraud the public, they are just plants - living organisms that react to different conditions/climates/locations with different results.

Excuse me for saying so, but you seem to be expending a great deal of effort to convince everyone otherwise. Why the need for such a crusade...what's the point? Do you find conspiracies in everything else that doesn't quite live up to your expectations? If you don't like the plants, don't grow them! No one is forcing these plants on you - it's your choice to purchase and grow them or not.

I didn't have an issue with rotting of my plants. All other coneflowers in the same exact flower bed came back. One of the Tiki Torch came back. There are many different cultivars in this flower bed, including Paradoxa which was planted last year too and is in full bloom. I even have some hybrids in this same bed that came back.

This isn't a theory. It's a fact that many others had problems out of these plants. If you disagree then so be it. This plant works in your exact location.

I love coming here and sharing my experiences with other people. You are crusading the opposite point of view, but it seems to be the minority view. I'm glad I'm not the one defending these plants! I can't imagine trying to convince people these are great plants. There is too much evidence in the other direction.

You never answered the question about my refund. If you sell these, can someone get a refund next spring if it doesn't return? I think I know the answer.

>Notice it's always the people who sell these plants who take up for them. LOL.
>They can't stand it that we are wising up to this scam

I think that's a little harsh, not everyone is having the same problems as you. All the Big Sky coneflowers are doing great for me (not a single loss) and I certainly don't sell them. I'm not sure if Tiki Torch will make it, but it's my own fault for planting it during a heatwave.

Listen to Ken... gardening is a "zen" thing. Plant what you like, if it lives great, if not... move on and try something else.

A lot of us tend to be cautious about buying the "hot" new hybrids, having memories of previous semi-disasters (Coreopsis 'Limerock Ruby' and Polemonium 'Brise d'Anjou' for example) where plants were not properly trialed under different conditions and turned out to be more temperennial than perennial. And it does make sense to wait awhile to see how others in our region are doing with the new hybrids before investing substantial money and effort with them. On the other hand, it's the responsibility of dealers in any industry, including horticulture, to make sure that products live up to the claims made for them (I would be hesitant to buy a model of car in its first year on the market, but for those who do, they can reasonably expect it not to have major defects).

"What the heck is the big deal?? Not all plants will perform uniformly everywhere."

Based on what I'm hearing here, Terra Nova seems to have been lax in testing this particular plant. If you claim a hybrid will do well in "zones 4-9", customers will expect that the plant has been adequately trialed everywhere from South Dakota to the Gulf Coast (and in various other climates). When expectations fail, it's not only the breeder whose reputation suffers - people will blame the nurseries who sell the plants as well. So it's in the interests of everyone involved in the industry not to condone the rushing of new plants onto the market before they're adequately tested.

Echinacea - yes, there are nurseries who will refund the following year.

I am fortunate to have access to one of these nurseries. If a person *has the receipt* they will refund money on perennials either 1 year after purchase or June 1 of the following year, whichever is greater, even if they are deader than a doornail. Of course, I have dug up what is left of the said dead plants (root mass, roots with stalk - whatever), there should be something left to take in as "evidence" (although of course the nursery probably can't
tell one dead rootball from another LOL!).

Of course, not all nurseries have this great a warranty. Some nurseries warranty perennials until sometime in October, others don't warranty at all.

I don't agree with blaming the nurseries. If customers don't return (or attempt to return) dud plants or complain to managment about them, how is the nursery supposed to know there's a problem with a particular plant? They need feedback, man! A good nursery man/woman is a great ally! They *want* you to have success and be pleased with your purchases because they want your repeat business - that's just common business sense - and many of them truly have a love of plants.

I do agree that Terra Nova's response to you was BS, total BS, but that is not the fault of the nursery who sold you the plants.

I'm hoping HD or Lowes gets some nice Big Sky varieties in. At those stores i know i can get my $$ back if it dies.

That's good to know. I might not buy anymore of these unless they are for sale at Lowes. If I get there when they unload the truck I might find one still alive. I do check there once per week. If the sucker dies, I'll be there with a receipt in hand for my refund.

"It is similar with some of the newer heuchera and coreopsis introductions as well but there is no huge hue and cry about being "scammed" by breeders/hybridizers regarding these plants."

Well I am one of the people that is very disappointed with the industry in regards to echs. However, the reason there is no huge 'hue and cry' about heucheras is because , at least in my area, there is no problem with the new varieties. With the exception of one or two that stay small but still over winter, they all perform well. To some degree I feel almost as badly over the coreopsis. I know that any that aren't yellow will not over winter in my zone. The difference is that the new varieties of coreopsis don't cost an arm and a leg to try. But that is our fault. Supply and demand. If we are willing to plunk down big bucks to be the first on the block with a new ech, they will keep churning out inferior plants with huge prices.

My greenhouse has at least 50 gallons of Big Sky that no one wants. We've even tried Buy One Get One and there are no takers. We do both retail and wholesale and cannot get rid of them. They are a contrast to look at. All planted at the same time two years ago and kept in the same conditions. Some still only have a few leaves and are a few inches tall. None fill the pots like our other varieties. Some have flowers. Some never flower. Some have the quilled flowers . Some have flowers without petals. That, to me, is a garbage plant.

I will be heading back to the reputable wholesaler tomorrow where I bought my Tomato Soup and Mac N Cheese. Will be interesting to see how his look compared to mine. And I plan to ask him if he's heard any complaints. He was very helpful when I complained about the Big Sky and did a lot of research for me. Will let you know if I find out anything helpful.

Diane

LOL. Too Funny

..."The newer colored echinaceas are hybrids. Often hybrids will not be stable or necessarily as robust as the species that form their parentage. Sometimes they are better than either of the parent plants. The former seems to be the case with these echinaceas. It is not reasonable to assume that they will perform exactly the same as popular cultivars of E. purpurea, to which they may only be tangentially related. The growth habit and cultural conditions of the other species involved in the hybridization are quite different and are obviously influencing how these plants grow. It is similar with some of the newer heuchera and coreopsis introductions as well but there is no huge hue and cry about being "scammed" by breeders/hybridizers regarding these plants. "...

I wonder how many of these plants they would sell if they put the above disclaimer on them?!?

gardenpal, I'm really very happy for you that you grow these with great successful, though I've yet to see you post a photo of your several year old thriving selections on these. I guess we just have to take your word. But where all your ranting and rattling still fails to solve any problems some have with these plants, is that it is pretty obvious that these plants should not be being pitched in areas were they have no 'history' of well performing sturdy plants. That or should be being pitched with the above disclaimer instead of stating 'easy to grow', 'hardy in zone 4 to 9', 'clumping upright habit', 'fast growing'.

Because when I purchase a plant that states it has an upright clumping habit, silly me expects it to do just that, form a clump, even a small one, not still be a couple of stems present after several years. When hundreds of all kinds of various plants thrive in my garden and then I get this stinker or two I highly doubt my drainage, soil, ect is the problem. I've only had a handful of plants in 20 plus years not perform well for me. And if I recall correctly it was you who informed me I was an idiot gardener doing something wrong the last time I questioned a plant here. When I've lost less than a handful of plants over all these years and have a happy thriving garden with the other 99.9% plants doing very well, I hardly think I'm the problem. And as a sidenote, the plant I questioned about the last time and got such dribble from you has completly disappeared from my area's local nursery shelves, as in no longer available in my area as it too was a disappointment.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but a new wrinkle in the plants-failing-to-thrive scenario may be tissue culture and how it allows growers to get massive amounts of plants to market at a much accelerated pace. A So. Calif. grower said they obtained six Pixie Meadowbrite echs from Chicago bot. garden and had 75,000 plants within one year. Grower also said they are noticing problems with tissue-cultured plants, instability, etc. It is conjecture to theorize that growers may be rushing plants to market much faster because they CAN -- I don't know if this is what's behind the spate of poorly performing plants, but it is food for thought.

The demand for new plants in new colors, doubled flowers, reblooming potential or a whole host of other desirable traits keeps hybridizers and plant breeders busy trying to accommodate the fickle tastes of gardeners.

The cynic in me says it's more about boardroom decisions and bigger profits for those at the top, than altruism towards fickle gardeners. Surely the plant/nursery industry isn't much different from any other large bloodsucking corporation. New products that no-one needs, sold as bigger, better, prettier than before. There is only one goal, and that's to make us part with our money, whether it's the music industry, oil companies, or the flower trade. It's disgusting.

I've stopped spending money on echinacea, lost 3 Harvest Moons and a Sundown something. And as I get older, and work less, my gardening budget gets smaller and it's surprising how happy I can still be, but maybe happier, because I accept that the corporate greed will always be here, and I can't change it.

Ken has a good point. We all share a passion for our gardens and it's a major, significant part of our lives. But yeah, some things like marketing and false promises and high prices sure do leave a bad taste in one's mouth.

>The cynic in me says it's more about boardroom decisions and bigger profits
>for those at the top, than altruism towards fickle gardeners. Surely the
>plant/nursery industry isn't much different from any other large bloodsucking
>corporation. New products that no-one needs, sold as bigger, better, prettier
>than before. There is only one goal, and that's to make us part with our money,
>whether it's the music industry, oil companies, or the flower trade. It's
>disgusting.

Evil Corporations? LOL. Maybe you should take a little responsibility for your own actions? No one is making you buy things you don't need or can't afford.

Seriously folks, if losing a $10 plant is causing you this much drama, you need to rethink your life plan...

It seems that these are hardy to zone 8, iffy in 7, 6 and under forget about it. I'm sure gardengal is honest and does have success in that mild climate. But the rest of us cannot believe the label that says zone 4-9. I had same experience with coreopsis limerock ruby and polemonium Brise d' anjou. If Terra Nova simply changed their zone listing, there would probably be no complaints, and the rest of us would instead be saying "If only I lived in a warmer climate, I could grow . . ." like we do already about other tender beauties.

torajima "Seriously folks, if losing a $10 plant is causing you this much drama, you need to rethink your life plan..."---

No, I stopped buying them long before one found them for $10 a shot. The first year Art's Pride was offered in Illinois by just a select few nurseries and I toyed a while before I finally decided I just had to purchase them. Bought 3 that year and paid over $25 a pot. Spent a real long time that day planning a grouping just for these plants while the sales staff watched from afar and snickerd a few times but gladly let me use their computer a few times to check somethings.

I could afford the plants, fit them into my planned allottment of gardening budget for the season, but what I've decided is not in my budget is over $75 for 3 plants that were duds. I've got much better things to do with my gardening budget than that--very many other things to pick and chose from. The next season I saw the little green coming up and decided to purchase even more of whatever next season's addition was. Silly of me. I should have waited to see just how well of a performer that dinky little green showing would turn out to be. I've not been tempted again even as the plants tumbled down to $10.

Oh, and the original grouping in the area first planned for the Art's Pride? Grouping is doing and looking really great, only it's short the echinacea. I planted Rudbeckia Hirta in it's place. And the rudbeckia never ceases to amaze and please me with it's reseeding and changes in it's bloom colors from season to season. My garden is happy, I'm happy and I'm living just fine without the stinkers.

Oddly enough, my Big Sky Coneflowers are doing well in a place where Rudbeckia Hirta died (two years in a row). I think the soil was just too dry and compacted for the Rudbeckia.

I think one of the problems with these plants is the root system. Looking at Tiki Torch, the roots are just very fine like an annual's roots. I have looked at some of my reliable Echinaceas' roots and they have thick, harder roots. This is why I think Echinacea "Coral Reef" might be a better plant. I couldn't believe the big roots on it. I won't get my hopes up though. LOL.

C'mon, it's not just the money. It's losing a couple growing seasons, summers you won't get back. For me, anyway. I have very little garden space, so if I assume a gaillardia or echinacea will perform like every other one I've grown, and have not been given information to the contrary, and I've given it a prime spot and am waiting for it all spring/summer to flourish, and it fails to...big disappointment, big hole in the garden. To a gardener, this matters. To a businessperson, not so much.

I am a chronic experimenter in the garden. I've tried many new cultivars and marginally hardy plants with some successes and some failures. I rarely get bent out of shape about the failures and try to learn something from them. Marketing hype is all around us....the plant industry is no different. I'd blame myself for buying into the marketing hype before I blamed the marketing machine that produced it. Buyer beware. That's the way it works unless a product is dangerous or an obvious complete rip-off. I don't think weakling coneflowers fall into either category.

Because it's beginning to look like a witch hunt, with talk of evil corporations and a conspiracy theory behind every door.

There may well be a problem with some of these hybrids, but it's not affecting everyone... not by a long shot.

I don't know why people are complaining about others trying to get the word out. Do you have a problem with people having this information so they can make an informed decision before buying these? Or...would you rather they just buy the marketing hype and fall in the same trap we fell into?

Au contraire. I find the information you are putting out here very helpful. It's the get-your-pitchforks-we-must-root-out-the-evil-coneflower-conspiracy tone I object to.

It might be helpful if we did some real research... perhaps someone should start a thread asking the following:

Was plant successful?
Size when purchased
Zone
Soil type
Amount of sunlight
Watering frequency
Fertilizer frequency

Maybe we can determine if there is an actual problem with the listed zones, or that paradoxa hybrids are less tolerant of wet feet, etc.

These plants keep being offered because there are gardeners silly enough (like this post proves) to go and buy more when they already have enough experience with the new kinds to see they do not do well in their area.

If you think a company is stealing your money you don't go and give them more do you? It is partially the gardeners fault too, especially if they know better.

I do think it is a shame that breeders do not have a stricter guide-line to follow; a certain standard to meet before these go out on the market.

Several people have mentioned Polemonium Brise d' Anjou, which there was a tread about not too long ago. Unlike most, I have had no trouble with this Jacob's Ladder. Several folks in milder zones than mine have had trouble with it, but mine is doing wonderfully. It is large and blooming as we speak. I wouldn't say I was scammed by buying this plant because it is growing great here. I am sure there are many other folks who have had good luck with new coneflowers too, and that is why there is not more fuss about scamming.
CMK

On Garden Watchdog, when there is a nursery notorious for bad service/inferior plants, you'll see a slew of negative reviews - but once in awhile, someone will pop up who seemingly dodged the bullet and reports a positive experience. A number of these folks express disbelief that anyone else could possibly have been ripped off, and suggest that it's other people's expectations or gardening ability that are at fault.

I also recall a gardening author who noted that people who say "Bugs? Not on my plants!" tend to get bitten the hardest. :)

Disclaimer #2 which should be attached to these plants pot when purchasing comes from spazzycat (slightly tweaked using 'you' instead of "I":

"Marketing hype is all around us....the plant industry is no different. You [should] blame yourself for buying into the marketing hype before you blamed the marketing machine that produced it. Buyer beware."

-----
And, spazzycat, I'm not on any witch hunt nor claiming 'evil' coporation here. In fact, the business being discussed here is one of my favorites when it comes to their heucheras. I have a bunch of the heucheras and all I have purchased with their tag have done good to very well for me.

What I'm looking for is more honesty in tag labeling, longer trials in different locations and zone and different conditions in each zone before a company tags a plant across zone 4 to 9 with " easy to grow, clumping habit, blah blah blah".

Take the Limerick Ruby coreopsis for example. Not hardy in my area. But after having been marketed and failing in my zone (I'm sure you remember that uproar), it has since downgraded in my region as a pretty annual that I continue to purchase being fully told it will act as one here. I don't have a problem buying an annual pot for $4 or $5 to add color and contrast to a section or two of my garden--the difference here is I am being fully and clearly told what I should expect out of the purchase and I have received from the purchase what I was told I would.

I don't think anyone's on a witch hunt. I know I'm not. I just wanted to warn all the nice people who have given me great advice here. If you had a bad experience with a new plant, I'd be glad to know that before I went out and paid basically 20 dollars, including shipping.

Just a few thoughts: In an ideal world, plants should be tested thoroughly before being put on the market just like any other product, but there are so many variables with plants: region, heat tolerance, cold tolerance, different soil conditions, etc. New cultivars are typically produced by individuals and small nursery operations, not large corporations with lots of resources. So, to get your plants into QA so to speak, you have to rely on other nurserymen and universities around the country to test your plants for several years. That takes a huge effort and coordination with people outside the sphere of your control. If the margin of profit is small, the producer probably has to weigh whether it's worth it. Also, there are probably others working on the same type of hybridization, so there's pressure to get your cultivars to market before someone else does.

I don't assume that every new cultivar will or should do well in my garden even if its touted to. That's why I come to sites like this to compare notes and I appreciate when others do share their experiences with the new cultivars. It gives me a clue (not a guarantee) whether a specific plant would also work for me. So, while I think alot of the info in this thread is valuable stuff, I really can't blame the failure of these plants for different individuals on conspiracy or greed. I just file it under: "Nice to know....maybe I'll wait and see how others are doing with these plants before I go out and purchase a slew of them."