Here is another 2008 photo. The bloom on the left looks EXACTLY like the bloom I cut, photographed, and for which I counted petals last night. It is shaped like a zinnia pompom.

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Hi Kathy.

"I also counted the "typical" r. gallica officinalis bloom. I got 75 petals for it, which is more than the 20 suggested by Taylor's Rose Guide."

'Officinalis' never has 75 petals. I doubt it would ever produce more than 35 at the best of times. It barely qualifies as semi-double, so I question the identity of the plant you are growing under this name.

As for the plant you are really inquiring about, I expect it is a seedling, not a sport. Gallicas are quite free and easy with their seeds and I usually find one or two new Gallica seedlings somewhere in the garden every year. 'La Belle Sultane' is particularly good at doing this, and 'Officinalis' is almost as capable. Seedlings from 'Tuscany Superb' and the other "pure" Gallica varieties are often far more double than their parents, and most are in a cool to neutral medium/dark pink hue. I think your plant fits that description also.

Paul

Gee, I was just thinking what Paul said in reguards to your Officinalis. You have it from a better source than me, Paul being a hybridizer. Lucky you to get such a nice little rose by pure chance. You must have been living right...fragrant too.

Hi Paul, Pat, et al -

The parent bush is about 11 years old. I received two rooted cuttings from an older expert rosarian at the Maryland Rose Society (near Baltimore). He said one was r. gallica officinalis (dark pink/purple) and the other was lighter pink and had been identified as r gallica species.

Both rose were planted in the ground, but in separate beds, one near the front of the driveway and the other closer to the house. The first rose (front of the driveway) grew and bloomed.

The second bush was slower to bloom - about two years later. However, its color was dark pink/purple. Baltimore is about one hour away and I don't get there often, so by the time I visited the spring flush was almost over and I took a starting-to-fade, last of the blooms cut rose and it looked dark pink/purple, but was not a great example. My friend said he might have mixed up the tags, so I had two r. gallica offic.

Time passed. Gallicas get powdery mildew. I was busy at work and not spraying much. The first bush got mildew, spread by suckering, and crowded out its neighboring rosebushes. I removed it about 2004? or so. Given that I had another r. gallica offic. I did not need two.

The second bush bloomed, suckered, and so forth. About every year, I pulled out suckers. The second bush got very dense and I thinned it some. It tends to bloom over about three to four weeks - from mid-May to first week in June or during May.

For 2010, despite the heavy snow during Feb, it was warm in Maryland, so most of my roses began blooming 1-2 weeks earlier than usual. Rosa gallica officinalis is about at the end of its flush. It does not repeat, so this is it till 2011!

I am sure that at the center of the bush is old rosa gallica officinalis. Here is a photo from late May 2008 and it looks to have about 25 petals.

Therefore, the bloom I thought was standard from this weekend with 75 petals, was also a variant. It was not standard.

As the bush I kept was the one that was supposed to be r gallica species which is lighter pink than r. gallica officinalis, perhaps it has a tendency to sport. The lighter pink pom-pom hybrid with 185 petals may be a cross of r gallica officinalis with Compte de Chambord.

I never really saw the 75-petal dark pink/purple bloom till this year. Or perhaps I was not observant?

Kathy

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Here is a low res shot of rosa gallica officinalis bush in its bed. It is very dense. The pompom 185-petal sport/hybrid is on the far side and does not show in this photo.

My photos from 2010 are coming soon. Kathy

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The stakes and netting around the rosebed are to protect against deer.

Kathy, if this is one cane on an extant bush (you said you marked a cane), it is a sport. Pollination does not affect the mother plant, only the seeds. If it is a separate plant, it is a hybrid seedling, or possibly a sucker that has sported.

Michael G. If this bush were a typical neat and tidy Hybrid Tea or floribunda, what you say is correct.

However, it is a messy gallica that spreads by suckering. There are 25 (or more) canes. There may be 2 to 3 (or more) rosebushes?

I have found suckers that send up shoots 1 to 2 to even 3 ft away from the parent bush. I see the top shoot, dig down about 6 inches to even 1 foot and I pull and pull. Sometimes the root breaks off and sometimes I cut the root. If cutting, I know the root will grow back. I used to save them, but began throwing them away, as too many.

On the surface layer, on top of all this, hips drop with seeds. I let many hips form - bright red/orange, round balls. Sometimes I collected hips in Nov, but I left some.

Ann Peck in TN suggested, "At eight to nine years, I'd expect that the many pollinated hips would have dropped and you might be seeing a seedling.
Good dense roses can drop seeds that don't get eaten, especially if the hips don't drop until early the following spring. (Winter and fall hip drop feeds rodents in my gardens.)"

Therefore since the bloom is very different from r. gallica officinalis, with which I started at the beginning, I think I have a new rosebush.

Someday, if needed, someone can dig up the rosebed and perform an autopsy, to check which roots go with which bush. That will be a big job! The bush is (bushes are) very dense and the roots underneath are tangled and tough. (Photos must be low resolution - under 61 kb - so it is hard to see, but here is the rosebush.)

Kathy

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For what it's worth, the 2008 photo of rosa gallica officinalis does indeed look like it and your multi-petalled bloom is certainly pretty!
zone5rose

Thanks, Zone 5 in Illinois. Today, there are about no more fresh blooms left on rosa gallica officinalis parent bush. Or on the multi-petal sport/hybrid.

The spring rose show is this coming weekend - June 5-6 by Arlington Rose Foundation in Fairfax VA. Sometimes it is last week in May, but often it is first week in June. Last year it was May 30, I won Genesis Award with r. gallica officinalis . Our judges are really good. A couple are expert at OGR's, so I think I must have won with the typical 25-petal r. gallica. It was a spray. (I did not see the 75-petal version till this year.)

Last year, also I won a blue ribbon for sport/hybrid with the multi-petal sport/hybrid.

However, this year, there is nothing left - except for photos. I am getting electronic copies of my photos - will post them soon!

Kathy

PS In northern VA, come to Arlington Rose Show, at Merrifield Garden Center, 12101 Lee Hwy, Fairfax VA. Visiting hours are about 1-6 Sat and 12-3:30 Sunday, June 5-6.

I finally got electronic versions of my 2010 photos.

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Here is a closeup

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Here are several blooms, from late May 2010

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This shows the bush, with Compte de Chambord on left and r. gallica Officinalis on right. Sport/hybrid blooms are center and bottom.

(It is difficult to trim photos to 61 kb to be able to post them here.)

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