Thanks, Coolplantsguy! My follow up is still the same. I've had no problems with the double coneflowers which are also tissue cultured. It's only the Big Sky Series. I still have one or two After Midnight plants though. I'm experimenting with different light exposures, etc. I am also hybridizing my own plants now. I have a good plant which is being trialed this year.

I'll keep this thread going! I have more time to browse now than in summer...

I grow lot's of coneflowers and I have had problems with many Big Sky cultivars. I used to buy every coneflower when it hit the market. I'm more discriminating now and am happy to be able to come here and read about all of your experiences. I respect EM for the attention to this genus.

I don't know why EM's comments weren't understood any better. It's OK for a plant to have quilled petals; but it should be consistantly quilled. It's a freak of nature when just a few petals, leaves, etc. grow differently. A responsible hybridizer would breed until the plants were uniformly quilled before taking it to the market.

I think sometimes it can also be from indiscreet use of chemicals and homones. When it's a genetic problem; as gardeners we need to step up and just say NO. These patent holders are making a fortune off crap and when they realize we are catching on, they sell it under another name... *steps down from platform*.

I'm with you, EM. Keep up the good work.

Thanks, Mickie!

The only 3 new plants I can safely recommend anyone are:

Razmatazz, Pink Double Delight and Coconut Lime.

The Big Sky Series is a gamble. I'd consider them annuals and just watch the bloom quality before you purchase. Definitely pick a plant with 2-3 perfect blooms.

Tiki Torch may be a better orange plant, but I'll reserve judgment until it returns this spring. I ordered a Tomato Soup and Pink Poodle. I'd put money on Pink Poodle. The double varieties seem to be as healthy as the originals.

Just to reiterate (in response to organicmickie), because the successes and the lack thereof with the BS series has been so different among so many gardeners, I'm fairly certain it's an issue of different tissue culture processes.

I (strongly) don't believe that the hybridizer in the case of the Big Sky series was irresponsible. It is oftentimes what is done by others afterward that causes these problems, and the hybridizer at that point, has little or no say in the matter.

One of the possible lessons to be learned here is to be wary of where you buy some of these new plants. In SOME cases, the big box stores will typically put a downward price pressure on the grower (even for new plants). The larger growers pass this along to the propagator (e.g. a tissue culture lab). At any point along the way, the price pressures may cause some to "cut corners" in the production of these plants. Hence, we get some batches of Echinacea with deformed petals.

I just came across an article about this in garden gate magazine (e-notes). Same problem, they claim there is a different reason for it however. Sorry I can't figure out how to post a link. I don't know anything about it, it is very curious though.

Linda

while a problem with the tissue culture process might explain the results, here is another explanation that I will throw out for consideration:
PGR - in particularly configure.

possibly the plants were treated prior to purchase (I seem to remember echinaceamaniac lauding this product in another forum) and/or treatment after purchase by the OP.

I have noticed some deformities similar to the ones pictured in plants treated with 600 ppm foliar spray. plants from the same plug tray that were not treated did not exhibit this pattern.

I am hesitating to blame the PGR as my sample size was too small to draw statistically significant conclusions, however, from my anecdotal experience, I am leaning toward a possible association between flower performance and use of PGR.

I am planning to do some further testing this spring and I will also raise the question with other growers while I am at CENTS later this month.

PRGs could also explain it, but my understanding of them would be such that any deformity would only be temporary, i.e. the flowers produced in the following year should be "normal".

I think 600 ppm of Configure is double the recommended amount. I used it just for propagating a new plant I am having trialled. It did work for me without causing this problem.

These plants are seriously flawed. They rarely survive winter and many of them die in the hot summer. The double varieties don't have this problem. I think it could be something to do with the genetics of Echinacea paradoxa.

I don't think the plants are flawed. If they were, everyone would have problems. But rather it appears, some people in certain areas are experiencing poor performance. I, like others, have grown the BS series for years with none of these symptoms.

I believe someone has already mentioned this before, but it's beginning to sound more like Aster yellows disease. It could be that some crops are infected, and others are not.

Take a look at the link...

Just a thought...If you have a HEALTHY vibrant clump of one of these plants send it to EM (resident expert) to re-evaluate under the same conditions as his failed ones.

echinaceamaniac, did your 'coconut lime' increase very rapdily? I'm salivating over them but have had many echinaceas fail, so want some recommendations before i purchase.

BTW, i'm in zone 9 -- CA.

j.

J. - yes! Coconut Lime is awesome and so is pink double delight.

It may be helpful to clarify that just lumping all the new cultivars of echinacea together for comparison is not going to provide very meaningful information. Many are selected cultivars of E. purpurea - 'Coconut Lime', 'Pink Double Delight', 'Razzmatazz', etc., while a good many others, generally those with yellow, orange or red flowers, are hybrids of several species. You are not comparing apples to apples :-) It may be a huge generalization, but my experience leads me to believe the species cultivars are just hardier, more robust and more floriferous selections than any of the hybrids.

And I'd agree with others that the quality of the growing operation or producer has much to do with vigor or flowering reliability of the plants in question. As these are all patented plants and propagated solely under tissue culture, how well the licensed lab is maintained and conditions monitored will have a huge bearing on the success of the plant product they generate. Unfortunately for the average gardener, determining exactly who is producing the plants you purchase is going to be pretty much impossible. But you should be able to determine retailers that are offering a quality product - the GW forums like this one are great for exchanging that type of info.

Like a number of others, I have grown a variety of the Big Sky series myself and find them to be sound performers. I do believe source and growing conditions have much to do with their success, or lack of it, in the garden.

I just want people to know about the problems so they can make better selections. In this recession it would be wise not to pay for weak cultivars. If people would read my post they would see that the photos above were taken at the store. These look like this before someone paid ten bucks for them. Luckily I knew of the issues with them and left them on the shelf.

The Meadowbrite & Big Sky series have as GG mentions been crossed with other coneflower species specifically E. paradoxa which I believe makes them, in terms or hardiness, less reliable to overwinter especially in areas where the soil is heavier and/or holds excessive moisture.

E. paradoxa in its native habitat requires fast draining soil and is not tolerant of heavy clay or water logged soil or much supplemental watering. Unfortunately, it's also contains the genetic pool necessary to create those crazy orange, red & gold colors which have become so popular over the last 4 years. But it's inherently more site specific then E. purpurea (from which MB & BG have been crossed with) which is more adaptive with it's fibrous root system.

I've just been back from a trade show - and among other things there is the usual hawking of the latest and greatest hybrid or cultivar including coneflowers. Most of those selling are 'marketing people' interested in selling big orders to garden centers & landscapers. And after 14 years of going it doesn't seem that too many vendors are concerned with how well they will perform over the years just in getting you to buy as much product as possible. That's just the reality of it.

But I still think it's good to ask these questions as EM is doing as these cutting edge perennials are expensive especially if you're buying more then a couple.

I suggested to one breeder that he conduct his trials by recreating the same conditions that the average suburban homeowner might have as found in a new windswept subdivision with 2 to 3 inches of topsoil/mulch over compacted subsoil and see how well his plants perform before sending them to market.

I have just started growing coneflowers in my garden, the first year I planted one of the newer ones in the garden, it didn't come back. The next year I planted them in 2Gal pots left them in a protected spot (lost one) planted these out in the spring in a sunny flower bed with well draining soil. I also bought a few more and planted these in the same bed.
Since our last two winter have been extremely wet I had planned to protect the crowns of these plants from the rain but we have snow this winter, snow that has stayed, we haven't had a winter like this since the sixties. I still plan to protect the crowns from the heavy rain we usually get in February just to see if this will make a difference.
I have quite a few of the newer ones so time will tell if they have survived.

Annette

This is a great thread; regardless of the differences of opinion on how the information is distributed. For those of us who are relatively new gardeners, it definitely gets the point across to 'watch what you're buying and from whom.'

I'd like to ask whether you feel that the species cultivars will come true from seed, as I've read here at GW before that echs tend to revert back to plain old purple cones when grown from seed, or it may take several years for a cultivar to show its true colors (ie: double-decker, which this year is its 3rd or 4th season in my yard, and I am hoping it 'goes double' for me this year since that's what I've read it tends to do).

Thanks also for pointing out the Poodle! How adorable is THAT one?!!!

In my experience, seed strains are generally true-to-name. I don't think the issue is so much that they "revert" in the garden, but rather, that they do self-seed.

So a clump of several white-flowered plants, that is allowed to seed, might eventually have a pink/red form amongst them after a couple of years. I'm going to assume the chance of this occuring increases if you have some pink/red forms elsewhere in your garden.

I googled Asters Yellow Disease it looks just like your echinacea. One article unfortunatly is from Spring Valley, Illinois which is right next to my town. TBD and lilies, RRD and roses, now AYD and coneflowers I swear it's enough to make a gardener give up, but I won't of course. Pat

This is a great thread. I have read on other forums about Home Depot selling diseased hostas. Could this be an example of getting what you pay for? Burpee is offering sundown coneflowers in their 2009 catalog. Would they be a reputable dealer? I called and spoke to a representative of theirs that said the sundown coneflowers can revert back to another color their second year of growth and then to orange the third year. Is this due to the seeds coming up some years because they don't all get eaten by the birds? If Burpee doesn't ship good sundowns, then who does?

Part of the problem is just bad genetics. These Echinaceas just aren't hardy...however, the petal and leaf distortions are being caused by large commercial nurseries using PGR's to keep the plants small so that they can be shipped. Someone posted about plants growing out of it if it was PGR's , but the reality is that large commercial growers use so many growth inhibitors that the plants never really grow out of it...they just look deformed, grow poorly and eventually die. Trimec is being used in tremendous amounts. I know it's a herbicide, not a growth inhibitor, but it is being used because it cost about 1/100th of what Bonsai or Conserve costs and in moderation it does inhibit growth...especially in heucheras, dianthus, and salvias.

Thank you for this thread, echinaceamaniac. I have Big Sky Sunrise purchased at two different places (Jackson & Perkins and a reliable local nursery) planted in my Rocky Mountain high plains garden, and the quilling started after the first year. I thought maybe a change in location would help -- more water, drainage, sun, fertility -- but this thread just makes me want to pitch them and not bother.

They are really not pleasing to look at. Too bad.

I sure wasn't happy with my Sunrise or Sundown this year. I thought that it was a problem with my soil, and it still may be. I am going to see how they do this year. I always have found Echinaceas easy to grow, but these have me disappointed.

I appreciate this thread as I'm in the retail nursery business. i will be keeping an eye on it...and letting you know how our Sunrise and Sundown's do this year. I have planted two of each in my gardens (two of the sundown's last year, and just planted two Sunrise this spring).

This is year number three for my Big Sky series Echinacea-Sunrise,Harvest Moon,Summer Sky, and Sundown. I've been holding my breath every spring since I planted them, worrying that they might not return. That's not been the case here.

My plants came from Ebay, and were plugs planted into 3 inch pots when they arrived. They were planted late spring/early summer, and I think that may be the key to their survival. They had all summer and fall to get established before the cold weather came. I also mulch my beds well.

I've been very pleased with all four plants and recommend them to friends who visit and want to know what they are. I get lots of compliments on them.

Linda

All my newer Echinacea plants survived this very harsh winter. I have Harvest Moon, Coconut Lime, Fatal Attractioin, After Midnight, Tiki Torch, Merinque, Ruby Star. All of them were planted last year. I was not very happy with the performance of those that were planted in spring or early summer. Will see this year...
I added Tomato Soup, Pink Poodle, Mac'n'Cheese. Ordered Hot Papaya, Coral Reef, and Tangerine Dream for late summer delivery. Since my space is very limited, I am getting rid of Harvest Moon (Echinaceamaniac finally convinced me :)
I will leave only the best performers in my garden after a couple of years of testing them.

My 2 cents:

I work at a nursery, and we got quite a few of of the Big Sky series in last year. As they bloomed, all looked fine. Great actually. Yes, they're more expensive, but they also don't produce true to seed, and I can see how that would factor into price from wholesales. Also, as it's been stated, they're a new set of cultivars. These first few years, as if for everything new, is a testing period. Obviously, not everything makes it. I bought a couple, knowing that fully, and while it's coming back nicely, we'll see what I get when it blooms.

Also, I see no evidence whatsoever that these are associated with some kind of disease, more soever that they're spreading said disease throughout gardens across America. Honestly, that rings like BS with me.

One more thing to note, our plants come from Peoria and Iwasaki growers. If it factors into anything.

Updated information:

To test the theory about Paradoxa genes being the problem, last year I ordered 5 Echinacea Paradoxa plants...They all returned in the same flower bed and all are blooming. They are beautiful. Paradoxa grows perfectly fine here in the same bed as the Big Sky Series and Tiki Torch that failed. So I think it's something else causing the problem in these plants.

I was wondering what the heck was up with my Echinacea Sunset (Orange) and Sunrise (yellow).

I purchased 1 pot of each in summer 2007, #1 size (2.6 qt) at $14.99 each. Steep, but the colors were breathtaking. At time of purchase they were blooming well but were only about 18" tall. This year they are over twice that height.

Mine came from a reputable local garden center, pic of grower's tag below. (Not pointing fingers or placing blame, just showing that mine are not from a big box store or Stacy's). Per tag, mine came from Premium Plants (premiumplants.net), HORTECH, INC., Nunica, MI. (I live near in northern IN, common for most nursery stock in this area to come from Michigan growers.)

{{gwi:233661}}

Last year, after one entire year in my garden they bloomed pretty much true to color but blooms were sparse, height was about 2 - 2 1/2', ideal for the site and accurate to tag info. I counted on it being entirely unlikely seeds would produce any true plants, but in fall '08 I scattered some of the dried flower heads in the same area just to see what I'd get if anything.

This year, I am sorely disappointed. I have a nice size healthy patch of the biggest mix of coneflower I've ever seen. I have true Purple and White, true to form, and plenty of them. Well over 3' tall. Nothing against those varieties, just not my cup 'o tea, so I've never purchased or planted any purple or white for my beds. You can see a good example of white in photo, purple are to the rear and don't show up in pic. I've wondered if the seeds I dropped did not somehow revert back to a parent plant. Cross pollination occurred to me, as my neighbor has purple in her front yard, about 150' from mine. However no one nearby has white that I've seen. Also, it's not visible in photo but a clump to the rear is erect till about the 18" point, then stems with buds are doing a funky curl downward, some have a few bends to them, but still downward directed. My mother has a large patch of Purple Coneflower in her yard for years and I've never seen hers distorted like that. (I've not amended the soil in that area nor sprayed them with anything.)

The ones that are white are blooming already, but the ones that appear to have any yellow at all (Sunrise) are just starting to open. I can see already they are washed out, not the vivid yellow they were previously. I'd call it a creamy yellow. The Sunset is an even bigger disappointment. I have some quilled petals, some not. Some a faded lilac color, some on the pink side, some a blend of lilac/pink. Some petals have centers that are trying to be that vibrant orange, but are washed out and blend to the cooler pink/lilac.

Anyway, again, a big disappointment. I save all my gardening receipts and am tempted to see if the garden center will take them back. (They have a 1 yr warranty, but again, last year these plants were sparse bloomers but truer to tag.) I did notice that the garden center I got them from is not carrying these at all this year. (In fact of all the places I haunt, I've not seen them this year.)

{{gwi:233663}}

{{gwi:233665}}

report from the field: in their third year my e. "Harvest Moon" have developed quilled petals. The solid color of the petals is affected, and the shape is not pleasing.

I thought I had dodged the bullet.

Big Sky Echniacea Plant Report from zone 5 Michigan - 15 year old garden on very heavy wet clay soil where plain old purpurea does not fare well - must add purpurea plants periodically to keep a stand going. Very little self seeding.

Sunrise - 2005 to 2008 (four seasons) - did not return in 2009 after repeatedly being eaten to the ground by rabbits.

In their 3 years in my garden, growth and spread was good, flowers were perfect, no quilling ever. Good soft yellow color. No noticeable fading.

Sundown - 2006 to 2009 (four seasons)- in a raised bed with better than my usual drainage

Excellent spread, no quilling in 06,07,08 - minor quilling on some blooms in 09 which I attribute more to temps in the 40s at night in July which is highly unusual here. Moderate fading, but not as much as the fading of the Apricot Profusion Zinnias planted with them. Color difficult to describe - saturated orange with a pinkish underlay. Excellent color with many of my orange, peach, or yellow daylilies and set off well by blue purple blooms or blue-green foliage. Love this plant!

Sunset & Twilight - 2006, partial return in 2007, no return 2008, looked like good healthy plants all 2006 season. Never saw any quilling on any plants, not even Sunset. Excellent color on both, more vibrant than Sundown. Unfortunately, these were mostly expensive annuals for me.

Summer Sky - 2007 to 2009 (three seasons)

Good growth, healthy plants, heavy bloomer, very tall compared to others, good 4 feet. Slightly peachier than Sundown. Also an excellent color to mix with daylilies. No quilling at all, first two seasons, somewhat sloppier looking blooms this cold summer, maybe a few quills. No noticeable fading.

All plants were bought in early spring in quart size from a good local nursery and given good spots in my garden (as high and dry as I could manage) but no other special treatment. No fertilizer.

One of the things that I have found most delightful about these plants is that I am getting seedlings from them - one a very pretty yellow (brighter than Sunrise), two bright rose-pink ones (much better color than my purpureas, one of them with thin petals more like paradoxa has), one good coppery orange one, and a bunch of more drabber pinks than can be used in my purpurea bed.

Just to update this topic...I went to both Home Depot and Lowes in Memphis, TN. Both of them had new truck loads of all the Big Sky Series plants! Out of two truckloads, I was only able to find one plant without the quilled petals. Seriously. I thought they would work out the problem after several years on the market, but they still are shipping them out with these problems.

I love my Sundown. Here is the bloom on one I have had for three years. It is 4 feet tall with many stalks of blooms. The other two are slightly small in their second year. I showed the top bloom as that has been open for 10 days and it has not faded yet. All three are beautiful burnt orange with a touch of coral. I may have an occasional quilled petal but nothing to detract. My 4 sunrise also have been very reliable. I bought them from a small nursery. {{gwi:233668}}

Leslie197 - thanks for your update. After the disappointment with Sunrise and after buying it from various nurseries and growers it was good to hear from someone who had luck with them. Too bad the rabbits killed them off. I wish I could find a healthy Sunrise here, or online. Any chance your original nursery still has healthy plants? lol I must confess I have never seen any Sunrise without some quilted petals, ever. Oh well, good luck with the seedlings, Leslie.

Marc

My harvest moons are nearly 4 feet high. I'm going to move them to the back of the border. There I can appreciate the yellow and not be so annoyed by the variegated effect of the quilling. Since the underside of the petal is almost white, the quilling creates a circle of white around the cone with the "harvest moon yellow" from the middle of the petal to the tips. But they are big healthy yellow flowers and there's really no reason to throw them away.

Hello Echinacea Collectors - To quote Darenka (in Germany) from Hydrangea Forum:

"I had NO idea on the depths of my ignorance until I stumbled into this forum."

And all I wanted to ask was: Do any of you have 'Echinacea Double Decker'? & a couple of other??

I read & read & read last night until my eyes crossed ... at 6AM I ran out to check for 'quilling' (a new garden-term, to me) & other signs of deformities, on any of my (several clumps) 1 & only variety ... my beloved/loyal friend, 'PURPLE CONES'!!! At least I didn't dream, literally, as I did when I stumble on Hosta HVX Forum/thread!!! LOL

I can breathe easy ... no casualties on my lovely 'P CONES' (unlike :-( a few Hostas I had to kill). Many, many thanks, for this very informative discussion & pics, that spoke a thousand words!!! ;)

Back to my ??? - anyone, growing 'Double Decker'? Is Michigan Bulbs a good place to get this queenly looking, Echinacea? Would her care be as easy as my very ordinary, loyal, 'P CONE'?

Many TIA & please excuse my babbling! ... Oh & so good to read, posts from Garden Forum 'experts/friends'!

I cannot speak to the world of weird and wacky echinacea cultivars (I gow the always dependable Magnus), but I can talk about Michigan Bulb company - DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR MONEY. They have very poor quality plants.

Get over to the following link:

Garden Watchdog

where thousands of gardeners rate every mail order nursery in existence and find out who the best of the best are. (Personlly, I've had great experiences with Bluestone, Joy Creek, Lazy Z and T's Flowers and Seeds)

Double Decker is a seed variety. I would order seeds and winter sow them this winter. You could also buy some Pink Poodle Echinaceas as most of them look like Double Deckers because something is going wrong with the tissue culture of them.

Thank you much for the great tips, I truly appreciate them!!! ;)

If I ordered seeds, do I still have to worry where to order from? Surely, if a nursery is ill-reputed, their seeds may not be trusted, as well, right? Are these seeds readily available in racks of respectable nurseries, in town or are they only available from special growers? Sorry for these dumb ???

BTW it just dawned on me that I did purchase a 'Big Sky - Sunrise' from a good nursery, I frequent ... planted in Jul '07 next to my 'P Cone' & thought was doing well, all of a sudden it slowly fizzled & eventually dried up in place ... none of the other perennials around the site, showed any signs of suffering from anything ... checked my plant-tag file just now, it was from Bailey Nursery. I have many Bailey plants & have no complaints ... now I'm beginning to wonder about 'Big Sky', after reading the posts here.

Many thanks again! ;)

G'morning Echinaceans - I found one!!! ;) I started calling my favorite reliable, nurseries in town ... 1 gal. pot w/ blooms, is being held for me ... fingers crossed & thrilled! ;)

The Gold Finches, hopefully, wont get annoyed with the additional crown of petals!

Have a great day ... I will ... it's a gloriously, sunny & cool last day of July, here!!!

Ditas

Awesome...
There is now a white double decker called "Mount Hood." Check this out...

http://www.thompson-morgan.com/plants1/product/p88431/1.html

G'Morning - Got Ech DD ... I'm truly excited she looks so lovely ... the first thought I had was a pic of my dau, tons of years ago, as a Jr-bride's maid, at a wedding! This DD had a crown, so very full w/o covering her entire cone my grand-dau called her, 'Princess' ... several buds in stages should be coming soon!!! ;) I think this $10 - 1gal beautiful lady was a great buy, yes?

Mount Hood - would be wonderful as a combo ... Bride & B'Maid, LOL!!! The Nursery had 'K Mophead', I thought about for combo, but I have 9 H paniculatas, all in their white/creamy white show, right now, that I decided against white. They have several shades of yellows & oranges, but as ignorant as I am abt Ech, with a bad experience on Big Sky, I'll wait a while just until concerns (valid or not) clears ... I have 2 huge clumps of Blk E Susies & Coreopsis to satisfy my 'yellow fever' LOL ... too bad 'Lemon Drops' are done.

'Still looking for something complement/separate this Ech DD from my P Cone group ... any thoughts? I appreciate all the edu' from this group!!! ;)

TIA! ;) ... Have a great garden day ... this is the last of our unseasonably cool July ... we're headed to real Summer as we know it!!!

Do not buy anything from 'Michigan Bulb' company. Ever.
Check out Hallson's Gardens for perennials and hosta.
pat

Well I thought my Coconut Lime and Double Delight were safe too. Now it turns out that they have stopped producing any petals at all and instead have a bit larger green healthy cones with no petals whatsoever. It started with my Fancy Frills and has now spread to all my other Terra Nova varieties. I'm pretty confident it's NOT Asters Yellow because none of the symptoms are correct for this to be the case. However, it could be another infection similar to Asters Yellow and I would really love to know what the problem is. I also want to point out that I have asked Terra Nova this question through emails and have have never responded to my question.

Last summer I posted a picture of my beautiful Sundown. All summer they were a beautiful burnt orange and most of them had perfect petals. This summer we had the hottest July ever and by last week all of them were a blah faded color. A few days ago the weather got more pleasant and I see that the new blooms have good full color. Last summer we had rain from April till August and I don't think the couple of August heat waves were very long. So I am convinced that this echinacea problem is weather related. In New England it will probably look good a lot of the time. In a warmer climate I would not recommend Sundown.

I posted this on another thread but I grew Sundown for the first time this year and am not impressed. I can only describe the color as weird--not the true orange I was hoping for, but an electric neon pinky color that looks awful and plastic next to the leadwort. The petals are also not healthy-looking, which I attributed to grasshoppers, but maybe I should look to see if they actually emerged that way.

Man, I thought I was through complaining about these busts. Two years later, not a single Sunrise, Sundown, sun anything.
Thosebig harvest moons? Well there's one wimp left in the middle of the border.
The best is good old Magnus and White....is Swan one of the echs? How could I have even think about throwing over reliable solid magnus for some new on the block twerp with NO STAYING POWER?
mt

ok, it's a cloudy day so I've just been surfing and found this old thread. All I can say is "so that's what's wrong with my coneflowers!" When I first saw them several years ago, I bought them from an expensive nursery, was fascinated by the colors and had them order more for me. I don't believe they were from Stacy. Lo and behold over the years the plants have stayed miniscule amongst several old purple variety that a friend gave me. The petals always look shriveled and I was thinking maybe I was killing them even tho, the purple were fabulous. Thanks for posting these opinions as this spring I will just rip them out and put in something else.

I have to laugh now when I read this thread. I learned so much from this experience. The main thing I learned is just to plant Gaillardia if I want yellow, orange, or red. If you must go the Echinacea route, stick to the Pink or White. LOL.

I had a friend who would always try the newest Coneflower that came down the pike..me I stuck to old tried and true..Purpurea. Her eventual conclusion was ..Original was toughest and longest lasting.. Sort of like the original Morgan, Arabian, Quarter horse etc..look what they have done to those!! Humans doing their thang!

As for clay..we lived on a clay bed..with bedpan and high PH..and my purpurea thrived.

I agree with the Gailardia idea echinaceamaniac!! LOL