Katrina:

I would have every hope that these trees will not only survive but grow into beautiful trees. You might want to see how they grow after they begin filling out again, and it is possible that some re-shaping will be in order.

I am not sure why your arborist was so concerned that they might die--of course I haven't seen a picture, but for an oak to lose up to 1/2 of its canopy does not seem to me to be fatal. I have heard that sugar maples that lose something like 2/3 rds of their canopy can have something like sap rot, but I have not heard of anything like that with oaks. In my timberland I have had young oak trees lose way more than 1/2 of their canopy and live without dying. Of course the growth was slowed.

--Spruce

When I was a kid, I saw people pruning trees back by probable 80% to even probable 90%, and I don't remember any of them ultimately dieing from it. Some even came back from just being stumps. They of course ended up looking allot different afterwards, but they did survive and then thrive. I can'y say they were Shumards, or even Oaks, but from what I have seen, I would say I like the chances. I would say to be careful of getting rot into the trunk through the the remains of the pruned limbs, or through the remaining wound. I remember something about using certain fungal spores to inoculate the open wounds, so that it would crowd out the disease and rot causing plant pathogens. The Septoria caused little harm, but had a protective result. Otherwise you might be able to periodically use a long lasting fungicidal compound until the wounds can close.

I know older Water oaks that are toped will always die, at least around here. But a Shumard Oak will probably be able to bounce back to normal or almost normal from some crown loss. Good training of the branches can strengthen them. Make sure there are No narrow branch crotches, and no competing side by side branches which will form narrow branch crotches prone to break all over again.

Thanks for the reports of trees with even worse canopy loss surviving. At first I tended to believe the arborist because of all the advice I had seen concerning pruning a tree. Those pruning instruction most often seemed to advice that it is best never to prune away more than 1/3 of the canopy of a tree.

Thanks also, for the advice concerning using a fungicide on the exposed bare wood which was created by all the pruning.

If my trees do recover in time, one nice thing about their damage is that the arborist was able to keep from topping the main leader trunks on both of the trees.

On the tree which still has a balance but very opened up and sparce looking canopy, near the top, originally what was the main leader trunk did get broken by the ice storm, but the arborist was able to preserve another upward growing branch which already appears to have taken over the role of being this trees main leader trunk.

Then concerning narrow branched crotches, that was the condition of the tree I described, which had its modified leader cut off. So even though this tree now looks one sided; at least cutting off that modified leader trunk got rid of that problem. I previously and been concerned about the modified leaders' crotch on this tree being too narrow. The crotch even seemed to become more narrow the thicker they grew each year. At the time I first paid attention and became concerned about that issue with the tree, it seemed as though the trunks were already too big and both seemed to be so balance in equally contributing to the balance look of the canopy on the tree, that I concluded it was too late to correct the narrow crotch problem.

Now if the tree survives, as the above encouraging statements indicate should happen, then at least that narrow crotch problem has been eliminated. Maybe if the fungicide advice works it will be most benificial for the large exposed wood that was left after this 7 inch or so diameter trunk and all its branches were removed.

At least now, I will watch more carefully to avoid allowing any more narrow branch crotches to develop as this tree begins growing branches in an attempt to balance itself on its east facing bare side.

Katrina:

The general advice about not pruning away more than 1/3 of the crown of a tree is because pruning that is too drastic can slow the growth of a tree and to some extent weaken it. I don't think that recommendation is about avoiding killing a tree.

I have posted a number of times in these forums about liquid copper fungicide. Do a search and read my previous posts and if you have any questions come back and post here or send me an e-mail. For an oak tree like yours, you need to be concerned if you have pruning cuts more than 4" across--smaller cuts have little chance of becoming infected on a healthy tree. Larger cuts have a risk that increases with the size of the cut. If you have places where the bark and possibly some sapwood has been torn away from the trunk these need to be treated also. Long vertical wounds that are much over an inch or so wide have the greatest risk.

--Spruce

Spruce,

I do remember reading your reports on success using liquid copper fungicide.

The modified leader cut, I believe, does need such a fungicide application. The arborist did not cut slightly into the branch collar at all with this cut, and I have been wondering how the tree will heal; what now looks like an exposed heartwood wood, tree stump projecting upward and outward, about 7 feet up the main leader trunk of this tree. If I used a ladder, I could probably count the number of tree rings that cut-away modified leader has.

Can you post a reminder for me on when, and how often to apply this fungicide. Also, what is the brand name of this product and were or what types of suppliers are the best places for me to obtain it?

If I remember correctly, you originally posted that this fungicide could be brushed on. Did you mean with a foam type brush? You also mentioned that inappropriate use of it will harm the tree, so could you expound on that in respect to my tree's need?

Thankfully, neither of my trees have any of the damage where bark and sap wood shows being pealed away from any of their branches or trunks.

Katrina:

You can find my posts about the fungicide by typing in the search box "liquid copper fungicide." But sometimes this can be difficult because only the overall topic that the posts are in comes up and you have to scroll through to find the posts about the topic you are searching. My posts are easier than some to find because I always end with "--Spruce."

Anyway, I am more than happy to post again--this liquid copper fungicide treatment I recommend meets with a lot of skepticism, which in unfortunate, because I have been using it for more than 20 years now and it really, really works. I hate to see rot enter trees through wounds and large pruning cuts when it can easily be prevented.

Anyway, enough of the sermon (for now!).

Without a picture I am relying on your description of the cut at the top of this tree where you hope the new leader will take over. There should not be any stub that is more than an inch or so above where the new leader starts out. If there is, it should be cut back some. But an inch or so should be left above where the new leader starts to "stabilize" it--you don't want the new leader to be growing right at the rim of the main cut. If that happens it will be weak and liable to break.

Also, the cut should be sloping away from the new leader somewhat. Maybe a 25 or 30 degree slope is enough--just what is best depends on the form of the new leader and the trunk where the cut has been made. If the slope is too much you create a larger wound unnecessarily. This slope of the cut serves two purposes--first it helps the water drain off, but perhaps more important it will allow the callus growth joining the new leader with the old main trunk to be stronger.

OK, now you are ready for the fungicide. There were two brands I used over the years--the first, and the one I used the most, by Dragon, may no longer be available. The other I used was by Bonide. These were very similar with the exception that the Bonide brand had some kind of resin-like component that made the fungicide harder to use in a sprayer--the nozzle could become gummed up. But that is a minor problem and only a problem if you used a lot of it, which I did--at one time treating about 60 trees per year. And I did not always clean the sprayer after each days use. But now I use a paint brush except in rare cases when I canÂt reach the spot I need to treat. I use the brush now because it is easier to control the amount applied.

These liquid copper fungicides may be a little hard to find in a garden center unless at really good ones with a broad range of products. You can also buy it on-line. I am not sure that any one brand is better than any other, but be sure it is "liquid copper fungicide." That will be the product name. You may find other fungicidal products that have copper in them, such as Bordeaux mixture, but these will probably not work. The key is the copper element has to be in a water soluble form.

OK, now how should you apply it? First, you should wait about 4 to 6 months for the wood where the cut is has dried so it can absorb the fungicide. Then after a few dry days--no rain--mix the fungicide one part to maybe three parts water and then paint it on the cut. For the first application, give it a good coating like you would with paint. But give it just one coat--donÂt keep applying it as long as it soaks into the cracks in the wood--this is where there is a slight danger of doing some harm. And it is a slight danger, but if too much keeps soaking down into the trunk of the tree it can cause the inner part of the sapwood to die a little sooner than it normally would. At first I experimented with really large applications--I never killed anything with it, but I did notice some thinning of the sapwood as a result.

A short time after you apply this, the blue/green color will fade and the wood will look normal. To be one the safe side, I would apply this again the next year, but this time and hereafter, apply lightly just so the surface is covered, and then a re-application maybe every other year will be enough. I have one red oak tree that I made a huge 13 inch cut on to remove a deformed semi-branch semi-second trunk, and after about 15 years now the wood on that cut is as fresh as the day I cut it. In a few more years it will be covered over with new wood and bark and I doubt any rot will be in this tree! And the tree will have a really nice shape.

--Spruce

Thanks Spruce, for so clearly explaining once again the details of copper fungicide use on large cuts which sometimes need to be made on trees.

I guess now I will start looking for this kind of fungicide, and plan to apply it in Sept. 2008, as I understand your instructions indicate the first application should be made.

Katrina:

Yes, September should be fine. If the area is exposed to a lot of sun you could do it a month or two earlier. You just want the area to be really dry. In any case, fungal infections don't happen overnight, so you have a lot of flexibility. If I have a special tree with a large wound, I get a little nervous and don't want to wait too long. Often large pruning cuts on oak trees won't be infected for several years. But one thing about fungal infections that some people don't realize is that they can be invisible for a time. It is only after the fungal infection is really well established that the fruiting bodies appear, and for many observers, that is the first sign of infection. But at that point it is too late to use copper fungicide as a preventative. It is really not a treatment for established fungal infections.

Good luck--I think your tree has a good chance of doing really well.

--Spruce