check out de groots at the link ...

i have one 8 feet tall .... and about 1.25 feet wide.. WITH NO TRIMMING ....

grows about a foot per year.. once established ...

i have GG going on 15 feet tall.. and 8 feet wide ... i would not recommend trying to tame such as you are thinking ... sped of growth is NOT worth the hard work to beat it back with a pruning shears ...

i will leave most info about the maple to others... but will note that lack of water is the biggest reason for severe leaf scorch ....

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Maybe a grouping of skyrocket junipers would work better. They get to 2' wide by about 15' tall. Western arborvitae on the other hand can get to be very big and if planted in a sunny location, they will bronze in winter which from what I hear, is most of the year in WI.

That's what I was reading about the lack of water, but when I spoke with the local nursery (reputable), I told them I run a soaker hose once a week, they said that's too much.

The explanation I was given was that it may have a difficult time with full sun since it's not established yet ?????? I think I did my own research and came up with possible potassium sulphate deficiency. Watering it did nothing to the remaining good foliage, by end of summer all foliage was pretty much crisp or browning, and today there's still some dead leaves hanging on, not sure why they haven't fallen off but all my other trees are bare.

I don't know if Degroot's Spire will give me the width I need, but I wish I had known about this one last year when we purchased a 'smaragd' Emerald Green. Thanks for the suggestion. I might have room for one of these in my yard where I was going to put another Smaragd. LOL.

Gosh, I'd love a Hemlock, but I'll pay $319 for a 9-10 footer, heavy, (probably need delivery which is 70% of the cost), and that's too ridiculous to try and justify.

I don't know, call me crazy, but I might just go with the Green Giant. I don't care if I have to prune it everyday, question is can I do that effectively without ruining the tree. It's worth it.

Without a soil test, one can only guess at any deficiancy. Were you using Ken's favorite moisture gauge (index finger) to determine if watering was needed? The tree was not established which does mean to pay close attention to the water needs, but you can still overwater. And then there's the whole set a variables surrounding how it was planted. Balled & burlapped, burlap left on, when watered did the water just bounce off a clay ball underground, etc.

As for the privacy tree, was that the trianglular spot I seem to recall or am I confusing another post? And wouldn't a 9 foot hemlock be too wide to begin with?

tj

Did you know if you overwater that the leaves can brown, curl-up and fall off?

It happened to my oakleaf mountainash. It ended up dieing the next year with the flooding we had last year June.

'Green Giant' is a hybrid and not pure Thuja plicata, that is why it is being substituted for western red cedar in less favorable/unfavorable areas.

You'd probably be much better off planting smaller-growing types and just waiting for them to grow up than planting tall trees, expecting to be willing and able to shear them every year in perpetuity.

you said: I told them I run a soaker hose once a week, they said that's too much.

=======>>>

watering is an ART... not a science ... it is not a 'schedule' thing ...

you water.. when the plant needs water... and you need to water so that the entire root mass get dampness ...

THE ONLY WAY TO TELL when water is needed.. is to insert your finger to the second knuckle ...

when it feels hot or dry.. you need to water long enough to water the entire root mass ... and then you do not water again.. until it dries ...

and proper mulch sure wont hurt ...

once a week.. with a drip hose.. may or may NOT be sufficient ... depending on all variables including.. sun.. drought.. soil structure.. etc ...

i would suspect improper watering.. long before i would suspect a soil problem.. especially if there are any maples in the 'hood... if they have no problems.. then it is most likely NOT a soil problem ...

in my experience.. dried crispy leaves is a heat/lack of water problem .. NOT an over-watering issue ... i wonder why the nursery guy said that????

and i dont quite understand where the tree was.. but sun reflected off a house can double the intensity of sunlight ...

and finally.. what is your soil type ....

ken

I usually call them western arb hybrids, same way I call "autumn blaze" maple "silver maple hybrid" but this time I left out that key word and got busted. I'm trying to rely less on using trademark names when they are so similar to something else.

I should have explained better about the watering. It's a nook around the driveway, concrete sidewalk and lannonstone pavers. I didn't do ANY supplemental watering during the heat season (yeah, I know), and probably tried to start the weekly watering much too late in the season after it was already suffering from drought. I didn't do a soil check simply because I had a lamium groundcover there that thrives, yeah I know lame excuse. So, I don't think the nursery was implying that the leaf loss was due to overwatering, I had informed them I started doing that as a response to the crisping leaves, and they said I didn't need to use a soaker hose an hour a week as that would probably be too much. What they said, is water the tree, and if the water runs, so do you. In other words, if the soil isn't soaking up the water, it doesn't need supplemental watering, which of course I can't see because it's covered with lamium and has a rock border around it. So, I think initially the problem is either lack of nutrients, or lack of watering, or combination of the two. and my attempting to rectify too late.

Our soil is somewhat clay, but not to the point that water sits at the base of a planting hole. We live on a tree lined with mature maples and elms, maple in front of our house. This area is in my back yard, full sun, with reflection of sun/heat from the driveway/house.

The tree has grown, diameter wise around the trunk, since the first year, so that tells me that the roots are obviously expanding, a good sign, right? The branches and bark look otherwise healthy, as far as I can tell. I keep a tree wrap around the trunk during winter months.

Ken, you are correct, I have discussed this planting area before, but I'm still undecided as spring is fast approaching, I need to make a decision.

Tsugajunkie, what I meant by a nine foot high Hemlock is ideally I'd like to grow it tall, but keep the width trimmed in this triangular space, which I read is feasible with these trees. Nine foot is the biggest they sell locally, and I'd go for a larger one simply because they are slow growing, and I'm looking for a quick fix. I'm assuming a nine foot height wouldn't have a similar width at the nursery, but in any case, I'm ruling this one out due to the price and slow growth, unfortunately.

Ken, the Degroots spire are really narrow, and seem to stay pretty narrow long term. What if I planted two of these? How far apart should they be planted for total privacy?

'Emperor I' has a reputation for both sun and heat tolerance. But no Japanese maple is very drought tolerant, so I'd suspect drying, crisp leaves is very likely the case of insufficient watering.

The statement by your local nursery: "and they said I didn't need to use a soaker hose an hour a week as that would probably be too much. What they said, is water the tree, and if the water runs, so do you. In other words, if the soil isn't soaking up the water, it doesn't need supplemental watering" is so unhelpful as to be ridiculous! Running a soaker hose an hour a week on a JM will not even supply sufficient water, let alone too much. At normal pressure and discharge, soakers emit 1 gallon per foot per hour - unless you have the hose wound repeatedly around the root zone and the base of the tree, that is not near enough water to fully penetrate down through the root zone (12" deep). I run my soakers for around 6 hours a go and in the heat and dryness of summer, generally twice a week. 6 hours by soaker approximates about 1" of water if applied by overhead sprinkler. A good rule of thumb is that established trees need 5-10 gallons of water per inch of trunk diameter per week in summer, depending on weather conditions. Or one to two inches. For moist soil loving JM's, I'd err to the high side, provided drainage was good.

And there can be a variety of reasons why water may pool and not soak in, few of which have anything to do with watering too much: compacted soil, poor drainage, too high an irrigation water volume, crusted soil, too long between waterings, etc.

As to using the Green Giants, yes they can be pruned/sheared to maintain both a shorter height and a narrower profile, in much the same way Leyland cypress can be groomed in to hedges. But you are looking at a lot of frequent maintenance to achieve this result.

Kimcoco, from my experience with Green Giant and Degroot's Spire evergreens, I love them both, and even the Green Giant's sport, cultivar is wonderful.

But why consider using the Green Giant with constant need of pruning in mind.

It would be much better to plant a row of Degroot's Spire evergreens that you can purchase in the 5-6 foot tall range.

These trees grow slowly, but they are so worth the cost. They will not damage your pavers, and they will not overcrowd your driveway; if you plant them on center, about 2 1/2 feet back from the driveway. These trees do well in good drainage soil conditions, but also let you know when they need water, It does not take much effort to monitor them and keep them watered at the levels they let you know they require. Simply watch the needles and do not let them get too overdried before you water the trees properly again. That is at least until they become well established; after which it will be even easier to monitor them and find that they need much less supplimental watering than previously.

I simply love the look of the small fan shaped leaves that the needles produce on the Degroot's Spire. So by all means, consider planting a screen of these trees, each 3 feet apart from the center of each tree's rootball.

If you get the trees at the 5-6 foot tall levels and plant them, then their slow growth should not bother you that much, and there is a benefit when the neighbors are not alarmed by fearing the trees you plant will too quickly become overgrown and begin to infringe onto their property, or via subsurface roots.

with a triangle space you could simply plant a degroots Sire at each of the three points if in fact there is enough space for all those. Just keep in mind that if you want a screen privacy affect the Degroot's spire trees will not over spread the area too quickly, Also the staggered look could be nice.

But there was a point made in a previous response post that noted the winter color change. Mine do change to a more bonze like look in the winter. I do not mind that, but if you are one who would be bothered by that, then do some research concerning how the Skyrocket Junipers suggested above would work in your area.

Still do not implusively plant a Green Giant tree there, because you never know how life will change in the future, and what problems keeping that tree trimmed will produce for you. That is unless you are not concerned about the chance that you simply might have to dig the tree up and start all over again after only a few years of the Green Giant's, beyond establishment, growth.

I guess I'm not understanding why a Green Giant will NOT work in this area if I am willing to prune. Perhaps if someone explains to me the work behind it, I could better understand the precautions. I don't mind the color change, and I don't mind the pruning.

My first and foremost priority is that I need year round privacy, which includes height here, more than 5 or 6 feet, to block a view. In any other circumstance I'd probably go with Degroots Spire, but from a functional standpoint, I can't wait 5-10 years for the height, our back door is on an elevated porch, with NO other alternatives. My decision is not at all impulsive, I've been debating and researching my options since last fall, and until I see a SOLD sign on my neighbors lawn, I'll take the proactive approach to improve my own situation, so I can better enjoy my own property in my own privacy.

Any tree planted in this space is on my side of the driveway, not on the side of the driveway abutting the neighbors property, so no concerns with the tree infringing on any property other than my own. As far as I'm aware, the root system isn't going to penetrate my driveway and then onto my neighbors property.

I don't care if taking care of this Green Giant requires singing a lullaby every night, I'll do it. I just need to know that pruning is a viable option to maintain the width. What exactly are the cons to regular pruning to the point that it would deter me?

I appreciate the suggestions and feedback.

Kimcoco,
Your Japanese maple was not watered correctly because you neglected it.
So, think of what you are asking.
Think about the name of the tree you are insisting on planting there.
Green Giant.
GIANT.
Hey, if you want to plant a monster ever green there in a small space, and convince yourself that you will try to butcher it to stay small, knock yourself out.
LOL!
Have fun!

I have looked and looked in this thread and still have not seen it mentioned how narrow you need the tree to stay. I recognize you need the tree to be greater than 5-6' tall and that's easy but what is the maximum height and maximum width? It's too hard to visualize your driveway.

In the fall of 2005, I planted a 3 gallon 3-4' tall by about 8" wide skyrocket juniper (max 15'tall 2.5'wide), not to be confused with skypencil® holly but I don't think you have those. Anyway fast forward to end of season 2009 and the tree is 12' tall and 2' wide and mine is planted in the shade. It makes a good screen at eye level for a tight location without any screening required. I don't know about degroots spire but I assume it is a similar ultra columnar form. The reason people are suggesting these narrow growers is because trimming a western arborvitae hybrid is not sustainable in the long term. Most tree folks advocate planting something for the long term or just putting up a fence over the high maintenance involved with continaully shearing and or topping a tree that has outgrown its planting location.

Going back to the ultra columnars, if you plant a few of them, it can be an attractive landscape feature that will not outgrow its space and won't need trimming. I can't say for sure though because I still have yet to find out how much space you have for this tree and why it is you want this tree specifically when there are other trees that will be easier to control the size of such as pines, spruces. It may turn out you have plenty of space for the green giant.

alright Kimcoco, sounds like you are determined to plant a Thuja Green Giant in your space. Then here is a closer response to the advice you requested.

Green Giant grows by sending up a thin shoot with very sparce branching, then takes time to fill-in as the season progresses to the fall. By the fall the new growth will have filled out moderately and another new shoot will grow from the top. That is once the tree has developed and established enough root system, which can support its above ground structure.

What will that mean to you? It means no real privacy for you for at least 5 years or more after planting the tree. That is unless you plant a 12 to 15 foot field grown Thuja that was balled and burlaped. Such a tree and the crew to plant it could end up being quite expensive.

A solution to that issue would be for you to obtain the tallest Sport cultivar of the Thuja Green Giant that you can afford. I mean the Thuja 'Steeplechase' sport cultivar of Green Giant. this sport would benefit you in the following two ways.

One: Steeplechase's top growth is considerably more filled out and consistant with the overall look of the tree's older growth on it's lower trunk, when compared to
Green Giant

Two: This Steeplechase cultivar still grows big enough for your expressed needs, but would not need as much pruning as the green giant would need. I mean, because the Steeplechase cultivar is reported to not grow quite as tall and is reported to spread only 6 - 8 feet instead of the 12 feet that is the Green Giant's reported potential.

If you still want to plant the Green Giant, please realize that if you plant a 6-10 foot tall one at the start, the tree could take at least 5 years to establish its root system well enough to begin showing the great growth rates reported with this tree, and when it starts that growing each initial seasonal growth shoot will be very thin and will offer no extra privacy. until maybe the same time in the following year.

One good thing that Green Giants growth pattern will do for you is that such a growth dynamic while not being good for privacy issues, it is good for making easier the top pruning you would have to do to keep the tree within the height range that you desire for it to not exceed.

As far as the spreading issue goes, this tree has the potential to spread 12 feet. How do you plan to keep that within bounds. I ask that because I have seen Green Giant trees hyper-focus their growth power to spreading faster when whatever has prevented the tree from reaching it's height potential.

By spreading faster, I mean the trunk thickens massively, and so do the branches this makes the tree spread out and look very stout. That would make pruning away the spead much more difficult. But above all please do not take a hedge clipper to this tree. Such a pruning job would end up producing such a disappointment in how the tree over all appears. Thats because, then it's fan shaped leaf needles loose their draping beauty, and cause the branches to increase density to the point where the tree hardly retains any of the beauty, which it naturally would display.

Whenever you prune a Green Giant or it's sport Steeplechase, it is best to keep in mind that any branch you prune away or back farther than where its needle fans begin emerging will create a risk of that branch to dry up, die, and no new branch or fan shape structure of green needles will grow back on that area of the tree's trunk.

So remember, when decreasing spread only prune each fan shaped leaf partially off but not all way back to the bare part of that branch; that is unless you desire to create a clean trunk affect in that part or the tree.

One other point to remember:

When the tree is attempting to become established, and if it gets stressed enough to show some yellowing of the needles,that turn brown later; then, do not cut off that branch if it is in any area that you do not want to see bare trunk. Instead simply shake or brush off the dead needles but leave every branch of that fan leaf remaining. Even if the branch looks dead, this tree has an amazing power to sprout new green needles on it. But you will have to be patient and wait, but you also will need to ensure for the conditions be reversed, which originally stressed the tree and made it's needles die.

Last point is to make certain that you keep big dogs, like boxers or other such breads from spraying your Green Giant or Steeplechase trees. As goes for most evergreens, but when ever this happens to Green Giants the branches which got the highest concentrations of ammonia will turn a sickly orangish brown cast and ultimately will make the tree prone to die if drought,frozen ground, or excessive heat stressors arise.

What she said!!! --------^^^^^^^^^

I'm sorry but I think the case against planting Green Giants is being overstated. They can be hedged and quite successfully, in the same manner that Leyland cypress can be hedged. Yes, this involves work - typically less when the plants are still young, but pruning/shearing to maintain height and dense growth is usually required 2-3 times a year.

Leyland cypress, despite their expected ultimate size and spread, are frequently used as hedges in my area and GG's are becoming just as popular for this purpose. I've used them myself as a landscape designer for several clients and I know of several beautiful, thick plantings of these nearby, topping off at about 10' tall and no more than 3' wide.

Younger plants are best to start with - 5-6 footers are typically available in 5G sizes - and allow them to settle in for a season or two before doing any heavy pruning. Growth will be pretty rapid. Generally one starts shaping and training the sides and allowing the vertical growth to extend until you reach the desired height, then maintain at that level. For hedging, the spacing of these trees (either Leylands or GG's) is closer than if left to form a natural screen - 3-4' is typical.

From Missouri Botanical Gardens (MOBOT): "Trees may grow to 40-60' tall with a dense, narrow, pyramidal habit, but can be easily kept more compact by pruning for screens or hedges." (emphasis mine)

This is what an established hedge will look like - desired height and width are flexible:
{{gwi:335412}}

A thought I had reading this thread is to get or make a tall obelisk or 3 and grow a combination of fast-growing annual vines and use those for screening while your tree gets established and puts on height. Most places that have fencing limitations don't limit obelisks, but I don't know about your area.

Gardengal, I will follow your planting advice. Love the hedge. Thanks for the pic and advice.

NHbabs, good suggestion for a filler...I'm planning on a trough planter with a trellis and climbing morning glory for the end of the walkway (we have an alternate route). The city's definition of a trellis would probably argue that an obelisk falls in that category (a structure of latticework used to support plants and used as a barrier). I was thinking of a fan trellis to fill in more of the width until the tree matures.

Here's a thought...could be trained flat but wide. Start it in another part of the yard to get it going and when the arb outgrows it's welcome (because you tire of pruning) move this one in.

tj

This website offers a "Green Rocket Hybrid" - Thuja Plicata x Standishii - you might be interested in. It is 6-10 ft. wide at 25 ft. tall & grows 3 or more feet a year:

http://www.advancedtree.com/tree_greenrocket.htm

Oops - on further investigation, apparently this tree is the same as Green Giant.

I know this is likely after the fact...just tossing it out there, but why not grow a grass &/or a cold hardy bamboo which would grow in a lot faster? I have same fish-bowl issues (a large lot with 7 properties abutting it-the usual side and behind, plus all the homes around the corner have abutting backyards, plus even more yards have views to my backyard, 2 of which are good friends with the ex, who is a troublemaker, so yea!) I'm planting grasses for now, making quickie but strong trellises, and growing vines for other areas (peas and scarlet runner beans grow fast, annual vines fill in in the same season, b/c they are---annual!) and then I'm planting the things that take longer to grow in front of those. I'm layering in my privacy, and I have to do it on the cheap. There's even some "noisy" grasses which provide a little white noise when its breezy...