Organic means it is plant based in this case. These types of spray kill mainly by smothering the insects both bad and good. The better part is that when it is washed off by rain and finds its way into the storm drain it is not toxic.

Lance

I use the "Green Earth" products which I get from my local nursery. I've found them to be good and effective. Don't know if that helps.

Around here the bud tops sliced off means big grasshoppers. The only thing that seems to work on them is smashing them (which is pretty scary since they can jump 6, 7 feet.)

Aggie, do you get japanese beetles. If I remember correctly you don't. I know how disappointing it can be. I just don't look. All of mine are ruined now. I feel fortunate to have had a two week reprive. I don't like to use pesticides but am not against someone who does. Good luck.

Carla

Carla, I don't get japanese beetles that I know of. I have never seen anything that resembles the disgusting picture Harry posted! I actually haven't seen anything at all eating at the buds, so I guess it is all happening at night. I do see thrips when I open the bud. Today I saw a brown worm that was about 1/2 inch long. It was wrapped up in a leaf and a bunch of web looking stuff was holding the leaf in that position. I broke off that part and threw it away. I don't know what it was or what it was doing.

I've also adjusted my thinking where the occasional insect, mole, rabbit, or deer spoiled garden spot is concerned. This year, i'm just going to let nature "duke it out" with nature and see what happens. :) Next year may be another story ...

Aggie -- This is what I just posted on the Antique Forum:

There's one thing. I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again.
When you switch from a sprayed garden to a garden that is not sprayed,
there are going to be some ruts in the road.

A no-spray garden isn't going to be FULLY disease-free, EVER.
There will be small occasional outbreaks of disease to contend with.
And there is the fact that you don't have a colony of beneficials --
you have no balanced ecology.
That has to develop. And that takes time.

Figure, a good three years, to get pretty much where you want to go.
And you will have to steel your heart to accept some losses.
Some roses will NOT grow spray-free.
To have a "No-Spray" garden, you will probably, in the end,
have to get rid of those roses.
To us, it was worth it.
But EVERYONE's mileage varies.

Jeri

Jeri....my mileage is up! The main reason for this is because my number 1 frustration is thrips and from everything I've read there really isn't anything that eats them! Once they are inside the buds there isn't much you can do. If I didn't have those, I would be ok with continuing to release my ladybugs, praying mantis, and lacewings. I have lizards, spiders, and birds galore, but they don't seem to like to come feast in my rosebed. They stay in my front and back yard, which I never use sprays on. My rosebed is outside of my yard along my driveway by our alley. I just had someone here in Dallas tell me his roses have thrips all summer long. I don't see the point in growing them if I don't get pretty flowers from them. I'm going to at least start with an organic pesticide. I did just buy the thrip traps a couple of days ago though. I'm going to hang them as one last attempt and see if they actually catch anything. If they work I will hold off on spraying.

Be glad that you don't have midge.

I wish that either Japanese beetles or thrips ate midge, it would make things a little easier. But still, we soldier on.

The thrips are really bad here this year. I've pretty much lost most of my first flush between them and the lousy weather. I am trying to tough it out, but it's hard. Some of the roses are ok, but most of the white/light roses are completely ruined.

Does anyone know if spraying a dormant oil spray in the winter around the ground will keep the thrips from coming back? I've heard they winter in the ground.

Three years.
It's likely to take a good three years.

Things will, in the meantime, be so less-than-perfect, you might despair.
I think we only got through it because we had a dog who seizured every time we sprayed -- so there was no decision.
It was, for us, as if chemical sprays no longer existed.
Then we started using Neem here and there. And that helped in really bad areas.
And we removed the roses that were most-troubled.
Now, we don't even need the Neem.
But it takes time.

Jeri

You should not use any oil product once the temp reaches 80
including neem! don't want you to burn your roses.
SuzyQ

Listen to Jeri. She is absolutely right. The more you fight things with poison, the worse things get, and the cycle goes on and on.....and on. I am speaking from personal experience, as Jeri is.

I decided to go organic a couple of years ago. The first year is awfully tough. I had clouds and clouds of thrips. The thrips could have carried you off last year. I had chili thrips, normal thrips and just about any kind of thrip you could think of. I removed every flower and bud at one point. It did help, but I was SO FRUSTRATED!!!!

I also had aphids so thick my plants looked like they were crawling. I'd hose them off with water and they'd be back. The ants had huge farms of them going. I wanted to cry, and had intended to get out the Orthene, but it was too hot to suit up and spray. A few days later I went out and checked on my roses and they were covered with strange looking black bugs. They didn't seem to be hurting the roses, so I left them be. It was almost 100 degrees that day, high humidity, and I just didn't care. The roses could all croak and I didn't care. Well, I got out my bug book and discovered that the strange black bugs were lady bug nymphs. You guessed it. The aphids were TOTALLY gone within a week, and I have never had much problem since. Do I still get some aphids and some thrips? Of coarse. But not enough to even be significant enough to bother me. I'm rather fussy about my roses and other plants, tolerant, but still a little fussy, and things are looking good.
Certain bugs go in cycles from year to year, but nature cleans it up just fine if we give her a chance. I also suggest interplanting with different plants among your roses. A few herbs, wildflowers, irises, or daylillies. Not only will they make the roses "pop", but it confuses the nasty bugs and encourages the good ones to hang around.

I would like to share a scary scenario that my husband and I observed last fall. Our homeowners association wanted everyone to nuke their lawns last fall because of a catepillar that was an alleged problem in the grass. St. Augustine grass is not one of the grasses they went for, but that didn't matter, they wanted everyone to get a pest company in and start hosing down no matter what, out of "consideration for your neighbor". I refused to do so. I didn't see a problem, and I said NO. Even if I had a problem, I would have said NO.

Prior to this whole nuking project we had tons of birds, and their song would greet me every morning. It was November, and we had all of the northern birds down here, along with our own. I'll never forget one December morning as my husband and I were out in our lanai having coffee, and I suddenly remarked that I hadn't heard a bird in a couple of weeks time. I'm not exagerating when I say we didn't even hear ONE. Let me tell you, that is one eery experience. I didn't know if they just knew something bad was going to happen, like the end of the earth, or if the poison got them. The few gardening neighbors I have noticed also. I hope the birds were smart, and left the area, rather than get poisoned.

Well, it was MARCH of this year before we got ANY birds back. Obviously, the earth didn't come to an end, but people better wake up about using chemicals.

Sandy

Ok....I've got to chime in here. I try to just remain quiet but sometimes the rhetoric gets a bit much.
Here's a quote from Dr. Allen James, President of Rise (Responsible Industry for a Sound Environment), when talking about malathion, "The risks associated with proper use of pesticides are so low one cannot document any lasting effects".
Chemicals are not bad. Without them there would be massive starvation worldwide. Improper use of chemicals is bad. There is no solid evidence that proper chemical usage causes any poisoning or cancer.
Dr. Ames who back in the 70's pioneered the testing for carcinogens using bacteria realized quickly when he tested natural products that they too caused cell mutations in the bacteria at the same rate as the man made materials. He concluded in 2000:
"About 99.9 percent of the chemicals humans ingest are natural. The amounts of synthetic pesticide residues in plant food are insignificant compared to the amount of natural pesticides produced by plants themselves. Of all dietary pesticides that humans eat, 99.99 percent are natural: they are chemicals produced by plants to defend themselves against fungi, insects, and other animal predators.
We have estimated that on average Americans ingest roughly 5,000 to 10,000 different natural pesticides and their breakdown products. Americans eat about 1,500 mg of natural pesticides per person per day, which is about 10,000 times more than the 0.09 mg they consume of synthetic pesticide residues."
In his testing pesticides, such as DDT and EDB, came out much lower (in the ranking for cancer-causing potential) than herb tea and peanut butter. Alcohol was higher on the list. And so were mushrooms. Ames explained that "vegetables are good food" but have developed "nature's pesticides" of their own in order to try to ward off attackers, such as insects, fungal and bacterial diseases. "Many naturally occurring substances are more carcinogenic than many synthetic chemicals," Dr. Ames emphasized.
We need to educate ourselves about pesticide use, use it in an appropriate manner, and stop the hysterical, emotional rants about it killing the planet. It's just not true.
Michael

Systemic granular insecticide must be applied at the beginning of the season BEFORE the bugs have a chance to go into the buds... so no point in applying it now except as a preemptive strike for the next flush.

Usually though, summer is too hot for thrips...

Are some of your roses more resistant to the thrips than others?

I ended up just getting rid of the roses that the thrips seemed to like (i.e. Full Sail, Lagerfeld etc...) and I haven't really seen any thrips damage since...

Those of you who refuse to use pesticides have every right to do so.
Respect of mother nature is a good thing.
There are totally natural "pesticides" on the market now.
They are made from natural plant material.
THey won't harm the soil.
But, they are natures chemicals and may irrate your dogs.
And birds.
Man made chemicals on food is not good.
But we eat them anyway because we have to at times.
That is why the USA is very good with treating cancer.
We have alot of experience with it.

Aggie
I think that because I feed birds I have less insects around.

I just noticed this morning all the mf roses are in bloom
I nearly run of the road looking at a pretty pink prairie rose in bloom. These are all wild and I'm sure the only spraying they get is round up, but they are beautiful. I forgot to mention the wild blazes or Paul's scarlet climber. I remembered where they were this time so I can go back for a picture. They outlived all traces of civilization.

Patty the Garden girl has a organic way to dust the bugs away. completely safe for humans and animals.
http://www.gardengirltv.com/gardening.php

Here is a link that might be useful: diatomacious Earth video

I'm hoping the weird weather the last 2 springs has caused or assisted this thrip infestation. They have ruined all my white/light colored roses. I haven't sprayed any insecticide in 2 years. I was hoping there was something I could do this fall/winter to get rid of any overwintering insects that is not harmful to the environment. I did spray with sulfur this winter, but never got to do the dormant oil.

Aggierose, are ALL your roses infected with bugs? If there are some roses still uninfected, why not just get rid of the bug-magnets? My garden is strictly organic, so I'm very selective about the roses I choose. But then again, you live in Florida; I live in Mass (big difference). But we do get thrips, and I get rid of roses that attract the damn things! There's too great a rose selection out there to be stressing over the ones that give us trouble. I do hope some of your roses pull through without spraying. Good luck.

What about using Safer Soap to get rid of aphids? I believe it is primarily seaweed based with maybe some soap thrown in.

I have a feeling if we could prevent/destroy japanese beetles and thrips, something else equally irritating would occur, i.e. a new more agressive insect or something.

Carla

For those of you who think that organic pesticides and fungicides are "safe", read the book "The Truth about Organic Gardening". Many of the rated organic spray products are more toxic and have greater detrimental impact on the environment than the synthetics. The problem is that the US Dept of Agri. does not put the "organic" products through the same rigorous testing program that it does the synthetics. The author of this book says it so much better than I. Check it out.

I'm not condemning anyone. What you do in your garden is your own business. I think it is better to be informed.

Barbara

I felt the same way in Dallas my first season; I'd planted an all-light color bed: Abraham Darby, Buff Beauty, Reve d'Or, Perle d'Or. There were a lot of thrips early in the season the first year, fewer the second year. As Decobug observes, they're much less of a problem as the heat comes on, and that happen very early in Dallas. Of the roses I planted, Abraham Darby was the worst but I never took it out because the FALL blooms were great. Using any pesticide, even Neem Oil, disturbs the balance. Over and over the past years I've read posts from people describing absolutely terrible insect problems. The posters are rarely no-spray gardeners. I'm now convinced that serious insect problems are CAUSED by spraying, not cured. It's worth the three years. That professor needs to get out of his lab and do some serious observation! My pest controllers are on the job all the time-- ladybugs, lacewings, birds, preying mantids-- they keep things under control.

Aggierose--Have you had some unusally cold weather this spring? The roses that look like they have been cut in half and are blackened--are they red roses? If so you probably have bullheading. This is malformed buds caused by temperature swings--warm days and cool nights. It looks like insect damage but it isn't. Here in the Seattle area I get it every spring. I shovel pruned Rouge Royale because of it. Its worst for red roses with Baccara in their lineage--such as Rouge Royale but I see it to a lesser extent on other reds such as The Prince and occasionally on non-red roses. Your first flush may be ruined but later flushes should be fine.

My husband and I lived with his handicapped mother for 7 years. She passed this last July. Anyway, I decided to rehab her rose garden. The only rose I did save was her Queen Elizabeth. I had to wait until she had a memory lapse to pull the old sick roses out. Now it seems so silly. Anyway I planted about 12 roses in a raised planter. The soil had not been cared for at all. I added compost and good stuff to the soil. I fought BS and bugs organically. Still it was such a challenge. This year we are in our new home and I have 7 roses in pots. One was a charity case..A French Lace. Not one BS except for the French lace. Weird too is that the bugs are attacking the FL and leaving the rest alone. That tells me bugs go for the weaken rose. Anyway, I went by my MIL's house which is now for sale and the roses are just covered in BS. I think the dirt is just bad there. One winter I even put newspaper around the roses and put dirt on top..trying to keep the spores away. It was a constant battle. I know my FIL used lots of chemicals on the yard. I think it upset the balance. My yard is teeming with life. Birds..even a rat..(YUK) now dead BTW. I was amazed to see the crows using the bird bath to wash their kill. I found little baby bird wings and feathers in it last night.

Anyway, I would get some good bugs and keep after it. It is worth it

Everyrose, thanks for the info! Yes, many of mine that look to be cut in half with the blackened tops are dark red! The others that look like this are deep orange/coral colors. I haven't seen any bugs at all that are eating the buds so I just assumed they are all doing there jobs at night. My thrips are so bad though that they are even covering my dark reds. I went to smell my first bloom from deep secret. When I touched the stem to move it closer to me it was instantly covered in tons and tons of thrips. It was like the rose itself was crawling. Whats weird is that this is my second flush for all my roses. My first flush was pretty good. I lost a lot to thrips, but I still got a lot of great flowers. This flush, I can't find a single bud that looks good. The ones that have opened have been really small flowers, much smaller than what was produced during the first flush. The weather is warmer now and not as humid as it was so I thought second flush would be better. Maybe the weather is affecting the roses more than I know. Why are the dark reds afected by the weather more than other colors?

If you are into using "good" bugs, why not try the Minute Pirate Bug against Thrips? From experience I can tell you that they are an effective preditor (although mine showed up naturally). Also, just because something is organic does not mean that it's not deadly. Pyrethum, Nicotine etc. are "organic" (as is Digitalis, Aconitum and many other things). All of them can kill you and little Toto too if you are not careful. As stated above if you must use a chemical insecticide Malathion is one of the least hazardous. Unfortunately, it does nothing against Thrips. The Minute Pirate Bug however is small enough to go after those suckers right where they live - in between the petals.

everyrose, I do get that on my Prince and some of the other dark roses! The top of the buds appear flat and dried out! But now they are fine.

I do see more and more blooms opening, despite the thrips. It's finally going to be hot (90) tomorrow, so maybe that will burn up all those little buggers.

Mary, you are lucky you have those Minute Pirate bugs. I've seen some on my roses, and I hope that by not spraying, I'll have more predators next year. I'm going to consider buying some next year early on to be sure.

THAT IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At least I dont' have to worry about these roses:

http://pep.wsu.edu/hortsense/scripts/query/displayProblem.asp?tableName=plant&problemID=735&categoryID=1

Yep, prolonged cool spring does that bullhead stuff to roses. I see it here all the time, and Baldo said it was weather related.

Buford, I think it's possible that lime sulfur and oil sprayed at dormant concentrations during the dormant season can suppress thrips. As Ann has pointed out, lime sulfur and oil is not a targeted insecticide and may also suppress beneficial insects.

Light and white colored roses show the damage the worst. Dark roses have all the same thrips (I have photos of them), but the damage is less visible to invisible.

Ag, please be sure to isolate the cause of your problems before you launch a chemical attack. That's the first tenet of IPM: identify and target the cause. Spraying insecticide will not help bullheads.

Here is a link that might be useful: Four thrips and a cucumber beetle for size comparison

Yes, my damage does look like the bullheading, something I've never heard of before. I'm confused though because I live in Dallas and it has been warm for quite some time now. I don't remember temps in the 50's anytime recently. Will humidity cause it too?

Maryl, thanks for the info on minute pirate bugs. I've never heard of them, I didn't know you could buy them, and I certainly didn't know they ate thrips. I will look into that. I've never seen them at a nursery. Do you have to order them online?

I just did VERY quick research on the minute pirate bugs and I stopped when I read that they feed on plant juices when other food is not available. So, if I got these, and they ate all my thrips, won't they just then start sucking the juices from my roses? How will this be better? Won't I have to find something to eat the minute pirate bugs then?

If I can find a solution to the thrips, I won't spray. I just haven't found one yet.

Thrips pupate in the soil over winter. There is something that can help that - nematodes. Nematodes can "infect" any insect that spends part of its life cycle in the soil.

Here's a link with some info - scroll down on the page to find the links and read.

Deanna

Here is a link that might be useful: Nematodes

In my yard at least the danger of running out of Thrips for the Minute Pirate Bug is slim. Perhaps under controlled conditions(as in an enclosed Greenhouse)they could eliminate their food source and resort to eating flora, but I have my doubts about the great outdoors. Also they aren't cheap so the quantity I could buy would be limited by my purse. As I said mine just showed up when the massive Thrips invasion began. I don't think any solution is perfect, but it is a non-chemical option that you may wish to explore.

Here is a link that might be useful: Minute Pirate Bug

I agree that everyone has the right to make their own choice about what chemicals to use in his or her yard, as long as they are legal. You also have the right to believe whatever you want to about the whether they are harmful or not. I am not judging anyone, and respect all opinions.

I, however, will never spray anything toxic in my home or yard again, no matter what it is made from. I have seen too much evidence that it DOES cause harm, and I am no longer willing to support an industry that makes millions off of selling the stuff. I also do not automatically believe so called "studies". I worked in the medical profession for several years, have seen drugs deemed safe from "studies", that were banned when people started dying from them. (I don't take any medications either). I use my own judgement and make my own decisions, as those of you should do also (whether you are in agreement with me or not). The neighborhood I live in, (where everyone wants the perfect lawn, and many of whom allow pest control people in their homes), is seeing an extremely high rate of RARE cancers.

I've had pets get violently ill from "safe" pesticides being used around and in my home. I consider this the same as a canary in a coal mine.

By the way, I don't feel I (or anyone else commenting here) made a hysterical rant about killing the planet either. I'm only stating about what I have observed, and consider myself a rational, well-educated person. I'm surprised they didn't ban the peanut butter back when they banned the DDT:)

Sandy

Thanks gardenfanatic. That's sort of what I'm looking for.

aggie, I have a catalog with organic solutions. In addition to buying predators, you can also buy them food to eat while they wait around for bugs to eat! I know it sounds a bit crazy, but I have to tell you honestly that I sprayed for thirps last year and while it helped a bit, it didn't really prevent a lot of damage.

I'm going to probably try the nematodes to get the thrips before they hatch. And then pray we don't have another cold damp spring so any thrips that do come go away quickly.....

I'm a no spray/let nature duke it out gardener as well, though I don't have japanese beetle or thrip issues in this area (so far), though plenty of BS, mildew and aphids.

I don't want to let those quotes from Responsible Industry for the Environment (RISE) go unchallenged, though. RISE is affiliated with CropLife America, which is a trade association representing the manufacturers of pesticides and other agricultural chemicals. They share an office space, and are funded by that industry. RISE is the lobbying and public relations arm, thus their job is to support the industries creating pesticides. RISE is funded by Monsanto and DuPont.

Thus, consider the source of the above quotes.

Ok, Ok, so you have all convinced me to wait this out and not to spray. Next year I am going to buy every insect on this list that eats thrips! Every single one. My husband wont' like that I'll be buying more things that I can't see, but I don't care. I don't think I can buy them now since several of them show to not be able to tolerate high temps. Heres the list:

http://www.biconet.com/catalog/biocontrol.pdf

Now, does anyone know if these benficial insects eat each other?

Im also going to try to hang a blue bird house on the wood fence that my roses are planted next to. That is my neighbors fence, so I guess I'll have to ask for permission. They may say no since they threw a fit when I planted my roses there, but I'll ask anyway.

I may also plant some other plants with my roses to help keep the good bugs around. I'm worried this may do more harm than good though. My roses are pretty crowed so I'm worried the decreased circulation that would result from more plants would be a problem. Any thoughts on this?

I order from Peaceful Valley in CA. They sell beneficial insects and have a list in their catalog of how to use them, what eats what, etc. I'm not sure if it's on their site as well, but I would imagine so.

FWIW I have insane thrips on one of my roses (Rio Samba) every spring, they are gone by the time the temps hit the 90's though. My solution is to cut the whole bush down to the ground and within a month or so it grows back and there are no more thrips. Extreme? Yeah but that cloud of thrips is just nasty and I don't want them on my other roses. The only other rose they got near this year was a brand new Evelyn Rose and she's at least 100 ft away from the Rio Samba and there's a copse of trees, 2 flower beds and 2 rose bushes between them. I have no idea what posses those thrips but they love that Rio Samba. I think I'll pull it and give it away this fall, I don't even like it. Oh and my garden is 1 yr old and no spray. I would probably spray but I am just too lazy and I have 3 dogs and a 6yr old in that yard. It's not worth the time or money. Plus it's so dang hot in the Texas summer, who wants to be out there with airborne chemicals?

The thing is that I'm not opposed to using chemicals if absolutely necessary, it's just that in the case of Thrips aside from using Orthene every 3 days I haven't heard of anything that's 100% effective. And if you use Orthene that much you end up with spider mites that must be sprayed with Avid, and then the spider mites will develop an immunity to AVID so that within a year or less you end up not only with a Thrips problem, but a Spider Mite problem as well. So what have you accomplished? You've only made matters worse. It's the nature of how the Thrips feed deep inside the petals that makes chemical warfare so ineffective....Other solutions such as cutting off the spring blooms is maddening in my area of the country. Summer blooms are almost always inferior to spring/fall blooms(prime Thrips season), and you have to get up at the crack of dawn to cut them before the heat arrives. Eventually I've had to make some decisions about which roses I grow. There are some light colored roses that don't show the damage as much so I've switched to them. Honey Bouquet, Symphony, Tineke, all have Thrips but don't seem to show the damage as much. And I'm sure there are many others that I haven't tried yet, the point is that sometimes it's less frustrating to just go with the flow instead of fighting the current.

michelle, that's pretty much what I'm going to do. My first flush is over, and what's left is pretty ugly so I'm cutting everything back. And it's finally getting hot so the blooms are opening and blowing faster, so less time for thrips.

I am going to try the beneficials next spring.

De-lurking here to say it's not just you! We had a strange spring with wild weather swings (up to 40F from daytime to night), and I have to say...this is the crappiest rose season I've had in 8 years. Very abundant number of buds--probably the most ever--but the quality of the individual flowers just stinks. Like the worst thrips damage ever, but each and every rose has it. Some roses had stunted/balled/withered buds, others had blackened petal edges, still others didn't bother with blooms. My Queen Elizabeths, easily the most prolific roses in my garden, haven't bloomed yet. There are some old, established bushes that hardly went beyond their pruned size and only spewed a few deformed buds.

Thrips are normally a problem on my light colored roses, but this blight is affecting every color. The later developing buds are better--if on the small side. It's the roses that developed first (late April to early May, which is quite late for us) that were the worst. Surprisingly, the roses that seemed to shrug it off best were some of my David Austins--Jude, the Dark Lady, and a few others. But some of the DA's (Abraham Darby) and other shrub roses and climbers (like Sombreuil) were just horrific.

My mom came over and said "you know, if you just look at the roses from the house, they're not so bad." Sigh. And we had such a lovely, rainy winter (for us) that I was sure the rose flush was going to be awesome. And the numbers were truly impressive--hundreds of buds on some of my small (3 ft) bushes, which is the best I've seen. But again, the actual quality of the buds was the worst I've ever seen.

Some tried and true winners from my garden were hard pruned just because I couldn't bear to look at their browned/blackened/crinkly/balled horrible little blooms. These included: memorial Day, Queen Elizabeth, Sheer Bliss, Peace (sob), Marilyn Monroe, Daybreaker, New Zealand, Just Joey, blue Nile, Evelyn, Abe Darby, Charles Darwin, Autumn Sunset, Golden Something(normally gorgeous downturned sunny yellow blooms, but this time they didn't even open!),Chicago Peace, Tamora, Pink Peace, Mirandy, Mary Rose, Secret (double sob), McCartney Rose, Tiffany....I could go on, but I'm feeling kind of nauseous. To put it in different terms: I have over 160 rose bushes with few repeats, and this year I have only brought six cut blooms into the house. SIX.

But who can really blame the poor roses? Last week we hit 100 degrees on Monday, and on Thursday the high was 54 with rain (snow in Flagstaff, poor buggers). What is a plant to do in these conditions? Apparently, they sulk.

Now it's getting to be blistering hot again, with humidity in the single digits. Spider Mite season. I won't likely see a good bloom until September, and then the deer and javelinas will be moving in for their Autumn feast. I'm thinking of getting into daffodils.

At least the lilies, Shasta daisies, coreopsis, and cannas are doing well. And the glads look like they might actually open this year (last year they were all duds).

I'm off to sulk myself.

Heather

I have been working towards a NO SPRAY garden for about 5 years now, and it's paying off. I do spray with one application of Spinosad (I'm really surprised that no one has brought this product up.) It's safe, natural, most effective against chewing and eating insects, and I apply it with Ultrafine, to control midge, thrips (YES, IT IS EFFECTIVE AGAINST THRIPS) and sometimes aphids. I also have beefed up the soil organisms and humic acids by applying John and Bobs. If you have not used these products (no I'M not related, on the payroll or anything else: I just like to do what is healthy and works) you are overlooking some simple solutions that will work faster than letting the roses duke it out with the bugs. I don't have naturally good soil, so I do amend, mulch, dormant spray, apply the alfalfa tea, and have learned about humic acids, kelp, and cottonseed meal, etc. Good roses do take some work, but there are so many tough, almost no care roses out there, that do produce good flowers, that there really is a rose for everyones work level. The English Austin's will entail a little more effort. As will the exhibition roses. But check out what is successful in your zone without a lot of care (EarthCare roses-google that for a start) and use what works. Jackie

Here is a link that might be useful: Planet Natural, Montery Garden Products

I have no beef with organic gardening.....I'm happy that people are constantly trying and testing new ways to grow plants that may reveal a better way. If someone asks me questions regarding organic gardening when I do speaking engagements I will direct them appropriately. What irks me is when someone who is an organic grower speaks/writes about chemical users in a condescending manner.....as if I'm just some boob who without any knowledge of what he is doing is willy-nilly spraying poison on everything and everyone. I've heard the "you need to wake up" line many times and it's a little frustrating since I spend much of my time educating myself on pesticides and their usage. I read everything I can find....take the tests to be certified by the DEP.....and, yes, remain open minded. But, the tone when talked at is usually pity (because I just don't know any better), or worse, sometimes wrath. I only ask for some respect that I, in fact, have done due diligence and have concluded something different than you.
Michael

Michael, I'm sorry that you felt offended here. I really don't think that was anyone's intention, and I didn't see any posts directed at you that I would consider insulting. However, we all interpret things differently.

I think from aggierose's original post that she was at her wits end but was still hoping that there were non-toxic ways of dealing with the issues in her garden. As you can see, most of us who have piped in here have been through the same exact thing she has, and have some experience dealing with it that we were able to share. Nature truly takes care of things, but not always on our desired schedule. I find that diseases and insects have cycles, and they CAN drive you nuts.

For example, one year here in Florida we had "hoppers" all over everything. Eating screens. Eating plants. We all waited it out and the next year there was hardly a hopper around. Except that we had crickets now. Not just any crickets, mind you. We grow big fat juicy crickets in Florida, not the cute little ones we had in Upstate NY. Well, we waited that one out too. The next year we had very few crickets, but now it was sod webworms. Gross! They kept getting in the screenhouse by the pool. Grrr!!!! The next year they were gone too. I might have seen two. Last year I had bad thrips. This year hardly any. I do have some ants farming aphids here and there. Makes me mad. I hosed them off today, but the lady bugs in there weren't too happy with me.

My point is, as I get older, I've decided to make peace with my garden and what lives out there. I don't sweat a nibbled leaf or two anymore. I see lots of beneficial insects now, and have snakes, lizards and birds that take care of most of the annoying stuff. It takes a while to get a balance, but it's there if we give it a chance. Plus I don't have to suit up with protective gear in 99 degree heat anymore, with 99% humidity. Now THAT will kill you! Gone are the roses that needed that to survive in my climate. In came the roses that are adapted to Florida.

Now, if something unusual were to happen, and our whole food supply was going to be wiped out, we might have to take action. However, I am of the belief that would only happen if we get things so far out of whack that we have a disaster. The decline in the bee population is not a good sign.

Now I am going to go have my midnight snack. A nice peanut butter and jelly sandwhich (with organic peanut butter and homemade jelly). Sorry. I just couldn't resist! I do truly have respect for you.

Sandy

I just a Japanese Beetle.

I just discovered this thread and it really, really gave me hope. I found that I wasn't the only one with insect problems -- thrips, leafhoppers, aphids, etc.

I finally began using the Cornell formula, e.g., baking soda and Sunspray Ultra-Fine oil; have done three applications and everything looks better, but my garden was very sorry-looking for awhile and still doesn't look like it did with the first flush.

I also used Neem oil initially, and someone on this site said that Neem oil kills ladybugs, I believe. So does Ultra Fine oil and baking soda also kill ladybugs or other beneficial insects?

I am planning on using beneficial nematodes next spring to combat the thrips. The aphids I had, I just left alone and I guess the ladybugs came to the rescue, because they went away, as did the leafhoppers. BTW, I also had powdery mildew, so I felt about like aggierose did.

I am also thinking about j.rose's suggestion of using Spinosad.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Marlene

I would appreciate any advice.