You said the trees are only 25 feet tall? At that size they probably aren't a huge threat to your house.

As far as the storm drain, there probably isn't much you can do. The trees are just going to have to suffer. If they die, they die. Unless you want to (and can) put in a new storm drain in a completely different location...

What species of maple is this, anyway?

Wait a moment. Are they charging you just to get the equipment back or to build a new trench? I would definitely get a second opinion before these guys came back. If I get my truck stuck on someones lawn I pay to get the truck pulled out and fix the lawn. Back to the subject though. Young trees should survive re-trenching if done properly. Have an arborist give you advice not just the plumbers. Another option I know of is that some companies can put a sleeve inside the drainage pipe that would stop the roots re-entering it. Try typing "sleeves in sewer pipe" to see what I am talking about.

I'd dump these plumbers in a heartbeat.

Second, I agree that an arborist will do a better job at trenching. I also agree that trees that small may survive, but I'd have to see the property before stating anything with certainty.

Third, I also agree that a sleeve may work but in instances where the old seals are compromised to the degree that they broke an augur, I question whether the sleeve will go all the way in without trenching anyway.

Remember: its not the tree's fault. It was the faulty/failing joint seals in the old-school pipe.

Dan

How close to the trees is the drain? Do the trees have ample root area on the other side? Can the trenching be done with a Ditch-witch? Can a new drain be placed beside the old without removing the old pipes? With ample root area and the trenching beyond 5 feet from the base, these young trees should survive. Trees would be at risk to falling over only if the roots are cut very close to the trunk.
They would fall away from the cut. Which way is the prevailing wind? I was an arborist in past years.

All good points. Also lesson learned, don't pay all up front unless you know and have dealt with a company before.
A reasonable deposit is all a good business should require.

One time on my 89 Toronado the water pump went bad. I was removing the pump bolts WITH HAND TOOLS after soaking and three still broke. Drilling them out quadrupled the difficulty of the job. If a mechanic had been doing it I would have sworn they broke them with air tools w/o using any penetrating oil.

So who knows but it never does hurt to at least check references.

A BIG ash tree in my yard survived septic work a few years before I moved in.

I would time the work to coincide with dormancy to increase your chances. PROBABLY in fall. My trees seem to have an easier time with wind in winter since they have no leaves. But what can you do in this situation except hurry them along.

Remember: its not the tree's fault. It was the faulty/failing joint seals in the old-school pipe.

===>>>>

or the fault of the one who planted maple near those pipes or septic ...

dad has been dealing with this for 25 years ...

you have two options for the long run .... three ...

get rid of the trees .... seems like you ruled that out ... though that is what i would do ...

replace the pipe with cemented pvc from the house to the sewer ... trenching it out... ignoring the trees ... BTW.. his maples are 50 to 75 feet ... your 25 footers are babes .... and once they get to 50 feet.. they usually start shedding branches in storms ... you need to really think about the potential of these large trees and where they are in relation to the house ... taking down a 25 footer is about one tenth the cost of removing a 50 to 75 footer ... we also could use an ID of which maple you have ...

finally ... dad's solution.. for the cost of hiring the guy out once.. he bought his own power drain cleaner.. see link.. and does it himself ... he does it twice a year ... and if you do it that often.. it is not a big job ...

you are having attachment issues to problem trees ... they can be replaced if need be ... but one thing for sure.. you need to get rid of your human waste ... that puts you in an emotional quandary ...

if no plumbing solution can be had.. the trees have to go ... and i suspect.. that decision is going to make your head explode ... regardless .. you have to think out all the options and solutions .. while ignoring the emotional aspects ...

below is a pic of the neighbors maple.. when he had to have his septic field replaced BECAUSE OF THE MAPLE ... go figure on that ...

BTW .... is it really the STORM drain.. or is it the sewage pipe????

good luck

ken

thats some invasive root, eh??? picture them all going toward your leaking fertilizer drain .... can anyone say.. milorganite ....
{{gwi:234645}}
{{gwi:208954}}

Here is a link that might be useful: link

I wonder too what species of maple are these and how far away are they from the drain area?

If it is norway, silver, or red maple be done with it and plant a new tree. If they are knockout beautiful burn your eyes in the fall top of the line best in class standout of the species sugar maples, I would do whatever I could to save them.

But without pictures and distance of trees from the potential trench, I can't honestly recommend any course of action.

There are very gifted, intelligent, helpful people on this board (I am nowhere near their level) that can help you out, but they really need several pics of the landscape, trees, and areas of concern.

Pics can be uploaded to photobucket and use the "url" tag to make them viewable in your post(s).

I left out "plant a new tree *after fixing the drain problem*"

"How close to the trees is the drain? Do the trees have ample root area on the other side? Can the trenching be done with a Ditch-witch? Can a new drain be placed beside the old without removing the old pipes? With ample root area and the trenching beyond 5 feet from the base, these young trees should survive. Trees would be at risk to falling over only if the roots are cut very close to the trunk.
They would fall away from the cut. Which way is the prevailing wind? I was an arborist in past years."

I think the trees are at least 5 ft from the drain. They have ample root area on the other side. Don't know about the ditch witch, but I googled it and saw a pic. Seems like a tidy machine to use in smaller spaces. I'll ask the plumber who is coming out tomorrow (to give us a quote) about it. I'm hoping we can replace just the one pipe and not have to do the entire line.

DH says the prevailing wind comes from the west. The house is north of the tree. If it fell, it would (presumably?) fall into the driveway or the wooded lot next door.

Would you please offer a suggestion about how to find/hire an arborist? Should I ask the local nursery or look in the yellow pages? We were able to have a tree service come out today to give us an opinion, but I'd like to get a second opinion from someone who makes money whether they get to cut your trees or not. See next post. thanks.

We called a tree service this morning to come out and give us their opinion about the trees. The owner showed up this afternoon. He isn't an arborist but he's been in business for 35+ yrs and has the license/insurance to do work in our area. Still going to get a second opinion from an arborist.

The guy said the trees in the front yard are silver maples (2), a greenspire ash and a crab apple. All but the crab apple are 40 ft+ tall. He said they looked like they were in good condition and that the ash showed no signs of disease (ash borer).

We showed him where the plumber wants to trench. He said the maple was fine but that we should take precautions when digging near the ash. Said the maples are more resilient and their roots aren't as affected by this. He said that it would be helpful to the ash if it were pruned either before or after the trenching.

We called the sewer inspector who first quoted us a price to trench the entire line to the street. He mentioned that he spoke to our plumber who got the auger stuck! We assured him that the guy would get his auger back but most likely wouldn't be the one doing the work.

We asked him to come out and give us a quote to just replace 3 ft of the line instead of the entire area (100ft). He will be there tomorrow morning.

The plumber had called yesterday to say he couldn't locate his mirror and wanted to see if we'd found it in the yard. We said we hadn't found anything but would look around the house again. I think this was an excuse to see if we still aggravated at having to pay for work that wasn't finished as well as the new charges to get the auger out. We will NEVER pay in full for work that isn't done right again.

We said nothing except that we hadn't seen his mirror and would let him know if we found it. Didn't say anything about when/if we wanted them back to 'finish' the job.

Glad the trees are in good shape and am hoping that the line will be done with minimal damage.

Thanks for all the helpful feedback everyone has offered.

I'll post what happens after we decide which direction we plan to go.

No surprise that a silver maple is the culprit. Ken's pic above looks like a Silver too. I've got a huge Silver maple in the front yard about 20 feet away from the septic system. Don't ask me what the previous owners were thinking when they planted that tree there. That pesky maple's roots invade the main drain and septic tank on a regular basis. I have had the main drain augered, and also applied copper sulfate to the roots that were growing on the inside of the septic tank the last time it was pumped!

I have hacked away at its roots here and there with no apparent ill effect. It also drops about a zillion samaras everywhere in the Spring and occasionally loses a limb. I would consider removing it, except it is off the southwest corner of the house and provides nice shade in the summertime. I also happen to like Acer saccharinum, although not anywhere near civilization, LOL.

dream:

Sounds good so far. Sounds like you are on it. Let us know.

Dan

dreamgarden, I still have two large Fraxinus americana ash left and will not remove them until I see evidence of EAB. Thanks to it I must accept they have a limited life expectancy unless a wonder treatment is developed. (Crossing fingers, $150 per year for a Bayer product which MIGHT work is a little much).

Way to get a number of quotes and ideas.

I still say avoid disturbing them in the heat of summer if possible.

Emerald Ash Borer (ELB), unlike Asian Longhorned Beetle is treatable. The newest treatment is a trunk injection with Emamectn benzoate which will give two year protection.
Unfortunately this chemical is still only registered for professional use.
With any luck the cost of treatment will go down as more people decide to treat their specimen Ash trees.
For organic only people I note that I too avoid using chemicals if possible. In the case of an invasive insect that will kill your tree however, the amount of toxic chemicals a mature tree filters from the atmosphere each year IMHO is much greater then the amount of poison introduced with a chemical treatment.
I know this is off topic but I just had to comment on this.

Here is a link that might be useful: Here is a link about Emerald Ash Borer

Silver Maples are not worth a bad drain. Fix the drain, if it hurts the maples, replace them with something nicer.

I would not recommend silver maples anywhere near a house - they are so beautiful in parks and other big places. A favorite childhood memory is watching the helicopter whirligigs twirl to the ground. But yours sound like they are approaching where they can get out of control for a front yard. Once the trees get to be about 15-20 years old, they produce an incredible amount of samara in the spring, clogging gutters and sprouting everywhere in your beds. And then a bad windstorm will keep you up as you fear branches breaking off onto your house.We removed two 40 footers from out front yard that were planted by the original house owners. Older neighborhoods around here have "monster" silver maples in front yards - they keep the tree trimmers very busy with the pruning to keep things manageable. I am happier with smaller trees for the front yard. Good luck in this, keep us updated!

IPMan,
I could have sworn that I saw somewhere that Merit was recommended for Asian Longhorned beetle if they ever get out of control.

"We removed two 40 footers from out front yard that were planted by the original house owners. Older neighborhoods around here have "monster" silver maples in front yards - they keep the tree trimmers very busy with the pruning to keep things manageable."

How often do the folks in your area have their silver maples trimmed? Every few years, or more often?

The guy from the tree service gave us a quote of $1,750.00 to trim all the trees in our yard. Said this price included being there all day. Said his crew would use a cherry picker (?) to trim the 2 silver maples, 1 greenspire ash and crabapple in the front yard. 2 silver maples that are along the side of the house, 2 more ash and a box elder in the back yard as well as whatever else needs it. I asked if he tops off trees and he emphatically said "No".

Is this a reasonable price?

The guy who did our sewer inspection is coming out tomorrow to give us a quote about replacing that section of the storm pipe with the stuck auger.

I'll keep everyone posted on what we decide to do.

Lou,
Yes you may have, and Merit will work if they ingest it. The problem is that unlike most borers Asian Long Horn Beetle spend very little time in the cambium layer. They head straight for the heartwood. So the chemical has to be in the tree before any Asian Longhorned Beetle start to burrow in.
These beetles also can have a two year life cycle so if a tree is found to have Asian Longhorn beetle on it there is a reasonable chance that larvae are already in the tree. The emerging beetles from the two year life cycle are not going to pick up enough chemical to kill them, especially if the place they emerge from is already dead. I have heard those proposing treating trees that are suspect of having Asian Long Horn Beetle with Merit, but I campaign against adopting this control method. This is a far too serious pest to take any chances, so the only control method I support is; when Asian Longhorn Beetle is found we cut down everything that is even remotely suspect of harboring it. Technically yes Merit will kill Asian Longhorn beetle if they ingest it but it huge mistake to think of it as a control. We must eradicate this pest and unfortunately this means using much more drastic measures then treating for it. Sorry for the rant but when I used to work for the Agricultural Experiment Station in CT. I saw the damage this thing does, and it terrifies me to think of it escaping the quarantines.
I hope are OP has not gotten bored to tears with us, and posts a follow up to let us know what happened with the plumbers.

"How often do the folks in your area have their silver maples trimmed? Every few years, or more often?"

The Silver's that were in my parents' yard literally needed (but didn't get) pruning every 2 years, because that was the approximate frequency of major branch damage on *each* tree. The trees were about 50 years old. That frequent pruning never actually happened of course... no money for it. Finally they had the trees removed entirely about 5 years ago. While I mourned the Red Maple they also got rid of, I was glad to see those ugly and damage-prone Silvers go.

"How often do the folks in your area have their silver maples trimmed? Every few years, or more often?"

Once they are limbed up the lower branches are not too problematic. But the crowns need thinning about every 2 years once they really get going. Before they were removed, when we had a $400 trim of the two fairly young silver maples, the guy said "see you in 2 years for the trimming" - the following year we got the removal service in.

I agree with your tree guy against topping trees.

Rachel

I think the reputation that Silvers are weak wooded is somewhat exagerated. I've lived here 8 1/2 years and the big Silver maple in the front yard lost a larger limb about 4 inches diameter only one time. Otherwise it doesn't drop any more smaller branches than the oaks and sugar maple. The only time it was professionally pruned, was in 2005 when it was cleaned up a bit and an enormous limb that was hanging over the house and electrical wires was removed.

However their roots really DO grow aggressively towards water, since this is primarily a wetland tree, and they also make a zillion flowers and samaras. It would do fabulously in an low-lying, open position in the landscape.

Just took this pic the other day - I love this Silver maple, growing on an old farmstead in the local area. This tree is ginormous, it's at least 175 years old! It's starting to flower and appears healthy and strong-wooded to me.
{{gwi:335245}}

I'm not going to say that Silver's have NO place at all... its just not in a suburban yard.

Are you sure that tree is that old? I've seen huge Silver's that were no where NEAR that age. They grow REALLY fast.

If someone has a larger suburban lot, and the Silver maple is planted away from the home and any septic/sewer pipes or drainage systems, then I think they could be okay. They are fantastic wildlife trees!

Famartin, I could be over-estimating, but estimated the age of the big tree by assuming that it was planted around the year the farmhouse was built - 1840. Here's another pic that gives you a better scale. That's me standing in front of it -
{{gwi:335246}}

Posted by Terrene: "Famartin, I could be over-estimating, but estimated the age of the big tree by assuming that it was planted around the year the farmhouse was built - 1840. Here's another pic that gives you a better scale. That's me standing in front of it -"

OMG. That is a HUGE tree! We haven't hired the tree service yet, but now I thinking we may have to reevaluate our options...

The city stuck a notice in our door about trimming trees that are too close to the power lines. I've heard they can butcher things. Perhaps we should wait until they do their 'pruning' before letting the tree guy come in.

Terrene, that's an awesome Silver maple. The crown looks basically undamaged.

You may be right about the age, but as a rule, most trees are (even much) younger than they look. It may take no more than 80-90 yrs for a Silver maple to get that big if it incurs little damage.

That tree's big enough to perhaps be a regional champion, or close.

Being underneath a Silver maple in the summer is a treat as the silvery leaf-undersides light up the interior like a cathedral.

Silver maple flowers are one of the first sources of pollen for honeybees in the spring -- pussy willows are another.

I agree Beng, it is an awesome specimen of Acer saccharinum. Amazing that it is as old as it is (well over 100 years IMO, but I want to ask the farmer who owns the property for his opinion), and has a basically undamaged crown. I know there are Silver maples that sustain a lot damage in storms, and it makes me wonder why this one hasn't ever. Do you think that the fact that it has grown in an open position and been subjected to constant wind stress has strengthened the wood?

Quite a variety of wildlife utilize the flowers and seeds from Silver maples. Birds love these trees, every year the Baltimore Orioles spend time in the canopy of my big Silver upon their return from the tropics, not sure what they're doing up there? Also, when they do drop branches, this can open up cavities where birds can eventually nest.

The storm drain is finally fixed.

The guy who's auger got stuck called last week. He said couldn't wait for our other guy to retrieve his auger and was coming out the next day to dig it out. We told him he could only do this on three conditions.

1) If he was willing to charge us the same price as the other guy we were waiting for.

2) Would either hand dig the hole or use a mini excavator so as not to disturb the tree roots.

3) I wanted this in writing BEFORE he started digging.

He agreed to all.

We were there the entire time. We even had a guy from another plumbing company come out earlier in the day and give us a quote. Their quote was twice what we were paying for this guy to be able to get his equipment back and finish the job.

I have to say he did a good job. He was very careful digging. Instead of driving the gravel truck onto our lawn to unload the 2 tons of gravel that were needed to fill the hole, he used a wheelbarrow to do this by hand. When he was finished all that was left was a pile of dirt about a calf high, 6' long/2' wide. Looks like a grave! ;)

In any case, I'm glad its over and no longer have to worry about my trees being killed.

Much thanks to those who offered their advice/support during this time.

"Silver maple flowers are one of the first sources of pollen for honeybees in the spring -- pussy willows are another."

"Quite a variety of wildlife utilize the flowers and seeds from Silver maples. Birds love these trees, every year the Baltimore Orioles spend time in the canopy of my big Silver upon their return from the tropics, not sure what they're doing up there? Also, when they do drop branches, this can open up cavities where birds can eventually nest."

We are bird/bee lovers so this will be fun to look forward to this summer!