Angle iron from bed frames is harder no matter where it's made to prevent bending. I only use it for projects not subject to high stress or vibration ie: light shelving,etc
Mike.

A good Point but I can remember drilling some frams with USA Bits with no squealing and ruining a bit.

I had planned to use a Mini Caddy in my rear bumper’s receiver to flip unplanned firewood into my truck vs lifting. The caddy d/n past the stress test, of raising the truck approx 200 lbs from the caddy. Many caddies are rated at 500 lbs and I wonder how are they tested?

I attached is where the Mini Caddy instantly snapped with no warning signs. Welds pulled section of steel or steel snapping vs bending before body weight was almost at 200 lbs.

Yep, that's what I was referring to, a high stress application. Bed frames are cheap or free but for what you want better buy reg mild steel. Take no offense, but by the looks of the welds they were probably done w/ a 110v mig, and judging by the broken weld on the left side of the anle iron there was no grinding done to remove the paint.
Mike

Thanks for the reply! More good points and no offences

1. 220v, 180 amp Lincoln Arc Welder (at least 40+ years old) and has been a good basic use welder.

2. I got into bed frames vs mild steel after retirement and mainly projects as plant stand/bbqs/shelves.

3. The killer got my attention when there were some drilling needed vs welding or chop saw cutting.

4. Even though mild steel at work started ruining our sheers as snapping steel vs shearing in the 80s.

5. The light paint was never a concern arc welding vs gas welding during my level of repairs/projects.

6. The drilling issue became a recent concern as I promote bolting to friends w/o welders.

7. What is the real issue with drilling Bed Frame Steel when it is full of drilled holed?

8. The chop saw has done most of the cutting but I should have noticed this with some hack sawing.

I fully retract my opinion about the welds being mig. I will still say some thought needs to be given for the use of bedframes when welding them.
Mike

If I may... some comments in no particular order.
1. Where did you find information that bed frames are made in China from Chinese made steel? They may be for all I know but I'm just asking...
2. Look at the holes in your bed frames again. Are they drilled or punched? Either way, with a good lubricant and a good quality drill bit used at the correct speed, any steel product can be drilled without damaging the bit.
3. Any drill bit can be sharpened as long as you use the correct grinding wheel/compound to do so. The so called titanium nitrate coated bits are no different and in my experience, last no longer than any other good quality bit. At some point, a bit's diameter may preclude home sharpening just because it's too small to see and hold easily.
4. Riveted joints have their advantages both in manufacturing and in intended usage just as welded joints do. While welding does change the molecular structure in all metals, simply popping two holes in adjoining pieces and installing a rivet changes little molecular composition except the immediate small area affected by the hole and then only if the hole is punched which may set up a mild to severe stress pattern. Welding also uses quite a bit of power whereas riveting does not.
5. Bed frames vs bar stock: when you buy bar stock, you typically buy it for the use that is intended. That is, you may need a high tensile stock (high carbon) or something lower (low carbon) that can be used for more general purposes. There are dozens of metal products available although many are specialized for some particular application. In essence, if you're using scrap steel (bedframes included) then you kind of get what you paid for in that there is no official usage determined by simply being "steel".
6. While Harbor Freight may have some good deals occasionally, I take issue with the quality of some of their stuff. They're not selling stuff cheaply just because they want to help out the public but are like any other merchant, buy low and sell at a price that will make a profit.
Also, the term "American Made" (drill bits) does not necessarily offer a guarantee of quality in manufacturing, type of tool steel used, nor does it infer that the bits are any better than any other bit you'll find on a hardware store's shelves, including foreign made ones. I try to buy American when I can but look for the best value in certain things and that may or may not be American made, especially concerning tools.
7. As to the picture shown of the weld ripped apart, I would typically think that the joint got too hot during welding and the steel possibly crystalized, leading to a shear when loaded. Although the picture doesn't show the missing piece, I would also think that the welds are still in place and the metal tore at the edge of the weld, not at the weld itself.

The use of bedframes for your projects is a good way to recycle but remember that a bedframe really only takes a load across it's length so no real pinpoint stresses are incurred in it's intended use. Using it for some of your projects as noted may be ok but look at buying graded metal for more important uses.
As to my experience to make the above comments, I spent about 25 years in shops big and small, R&D to manufacturing. Not an expert but have been around metal for so long that they won't let me do a MRI procedure unless I'm on my deathbed...

Loger, Your posts in this thread remind me of when I tried to drill into and/or cut a piece of stainless steel plate. I think it was about 1/8" thick. Even thinner stock is tough! I could NOT get anywhere with standard bits. I think it requires a special diamond bit and/or cutting edge. This stuff is truly brittle and really, really tough as I recall.

Loger, Your posts in this thread remind me of when I tried to drill into and/or cut a piece of stainless steel plate. I think it was about 1/8" thick. Even thinner stock is tough! I could NOT get anywhere with standard bits. I think it requires a special diamond bit and/or cutting edge. This stuff is truly brittle and really, really tough as I recall.

Stainless steel requires cobalt bits minimum If you got the bucks at about $5 a piece try "Ultra Bor Super Premium
Special Hi-Molybdenum drill bits" . Anything less will soon heat up and dull if spun too fast. IMO the china made bits top of the line may cut one hole after that they are all most done for... I have good luck with dewalt cobalt bits cutting stainless. Course drill press makes it much easier. I have found over the years when drilling in hard metal to go just fast enough to see the bit cutting chips with a lot of pressure. IF I spin the bit too fast it just heats up and of course gets dull or melted on the end.

If you will use a suitable cutting or lubricating oil at the point where the tip of the bit is working to keep it cool and use a reasonable rpm, the same bits that will cut steel will cut stainless.
Drill press or hand drill, burned/overheated or melted bits are usually caused by the operator, not the drill bit.
As to pressure, the theory in drilling holes is the same as it is for saw blades... let the tool do the work, not the operator. Yes, some light to medium pressure is required but if you have to bear down to get the bit to cut then you need a sharper bit.

Thanks for all the Good Info! I’m glad that I learned a quick lesson and good info before I stocked up on bed frames again. I’ll head back to the Scrap Metal yard if needed (for mild steel). The bed frames have been handy and easy to collect from friends, neighbors and curbs (the most common steel found). My resent stock was found across the street and he had to be storing frames vs using that many (approx 6 frames that I dressed for storing that are gone now, attached). I w/n have worked this steel (w/o testing it) if I had known the problems that some vs all would cause.

Loger, bed frames are OK, but as I said give some thought to the use of them. They can be welded just don't use the finished project in a high stress or subject it to a lot of vibration

An angle iron Garbage Bag Rack (above animals) is a basic that used lots of bed frame angle. Plant Stands and low stress braces, sign stakes are good uses. I Like To Sleep Well And Avoid Liability Projects!!

I missed drilling one, ¼” hole before delivering the Rack disassembled. I had a drill and plenty drill bits but c/n drill the one hole needed. With that needed hole backed to a chain link fence and some Bailing Wire, I solved two problems. LOL

Oops, in a version where the bottom section of legs are lapped on the top cage and two bolts vs all welds at each joint. The stand meets a City Ordinance if you need to put your bags out the night before pickup (in some Cities).

Me thinks the term HIGH SPEED bit most think to as speed of tha bit..... NOT Me thinks that term means the speed the bit will cut iF turned the proper SLOW RPM.
General purpose cheap bits will dull quickly IMO if used to cut harden steel. Yes, they will cut but as stated require season operator that knows how to sharpen them. Of course cutting oil is good thing to have, but dough many novice driller that's buying cheap drill bits probably not going to spend money on cutting oil. IMO anything wet will reduce heat but it has to be the right chemical to enhance cutting.

cobalt Bit allow you to cut more holes without getting dull IF YOU TURN THEM AT THE PROPER RPM which most shade tree drillers interpret HIGH speed bits wrong. IMO. of course.

I have been welding for over 30 years, so I'll throw in my 2 cents. There are two things that will help you make great welds. Surface preparation and watching the puddle. You should at least get the steel down to fairly clean.

I noticed the difficulties of welding bed rail steel at least 20 years ago, before the Chinese steel was popular. I had to weld some brackets on window frames in an old mill from 1922. It was the same as welding bed rails. It was almost impossible to weld and have it look halfway decent.

It's not unusual to have the start of a weld be a little cold with poor penetration, but once the weld is established, you have to watch the puddle the whole way. You can see when you're losing the puddle.

I've seen absolutely beautiful welds break, where there is penetration on the one side of the weld, and no penetration on the adjoining piece.

Commenting on the cheap welded stuff from China, the quality is horrible and I wouldn't trust my cat's life with it.

Interesting Read . Yep China is the culprit IMHO. There seems to be a flood of low cost China Origin Bed frames within North America these days . No real surprise since the majority of appliance grade steel produced within China wether Cold Rolled or Hot Rolled is from Recycled Steel (cheap) with low Metalurgical Product Control. The majority of these bed frames are more than adequate for their intended purpose , but inferior for high stress application due to either load or vibration. Majority of this steel is medium to low carbon content .5 to 1% . Although various alloys from the recycled steel varys this composition and the steels hardness characteristics. Quite often offshore steel will utilize Heat Treating to more cheaply achieve their Final Product Characteristics rather than a Metallurgical Recipy Adherence. Normalizing or Hardening is the norm for Sheet Plate and Structural Product. In summary usage of these Bed frames for any High Stress Welding Application is a severe liability. They are intended for rivet or bolted fasteners. Loger if you were to normalize the steel during your surface preparation process along with cleaning to white metal and with proper rod or wire selection your welding results would be much greater . As for drilling either High Tensile Steel , Stainless or Carbon ,Treated Cobalt or Titanium Nitrate bits are required . Also very important is the proper drill (rpm) speed for the metal being drilled or bored . This along with adequate drill cutting fluid will ensure clean cuts and less heat which will dull any quality carbide or alloy treated drill very quickly. For your illustrated applications this cheap offshore steel supply should not pose any risks since no high stress is involved. I would look at steel recyclers for bar stock flat or angle for your future fabrication needs where any load stress are required. Keep up the good work Bro ~

I now buy nothing but cobalt bits, not only for stainless but also mild steel. The reason is that they can stand much higher heat (up to a point) than regular high speed.

Many years ago, before I had even heard of cobalt bits, I picked up a tip for drilling stainless: use canned milk as a coolant/lubricant. The water cools and the butterfat lubricates (my hypothesis). You have to keep dribbling milk on the work, as the milk boils away rather quickly. It really does work.

With this in mind, I decided to try miscible oil (dormant oil orchard spray) with water--and it works as well as canned milk, plus it doesn't spoil and get stinky.

The toughest stuff I ever had to drill was a chain saw bar. The outer layers of the lamination weren't so bad, but the inner layer was incredibly hard. I could get through reasonably well with a 5/16" cobalt bit, but I had to enlarge the holes to 7/8" (don't ask--too complicated) and the bits couldn't take it. Finally finished the job with a carbide burr in a die grinder (no, not a Dremel, but a real one). I hope I never have to drill anything that hard again.

Are the cobalt bits (by who) that much better than the Cheap Harbor Freight Titanium Nitride HS bits? They have done jobs my 1970s USA HS bits could not touch (general metalwork around home with some stainless included). I just purchased one ¼ - ¾” HSS Step Drill and 10, ¼” Drill bits from HF due to the past service I got from a Step and one, 3/8” (five good years on ea with weekly to monthly use as a trial that passed). My 1st choice is a USA bit until I got into the bed frame angle.

Harbor Freight is not my favorite place to shop (basically Chop Saw Wheel, Bits, Simple Solid Odd Hand Tool Wrenches/Sockets have gotten the small jobs done at a better price). Finding a local source of quality tools is a challenge IMO. Would WW Granger be a better source for general tools? They are almost as close as HF and the quantity of stock Is Off The Scales.

Initially HF’s Satisfaction Guaranteed Policy Helped Over Northern, But That Has Changed. LOL

Loger: Yes Colbalt is the superior grade of high tensile steel cutting bit. The North American Manufacturers Dewalt , Irwin and Bosh are the leading suppliers of specialty HSS Drill Bits. I prefer Dewalt since their web design is much stronger and their flute radius is much longer giving a much larger cutting edge. Also Dewalt has higher cobalt percentage than any other Manufacturer which allows it to cut faster and at higher temps 1200 Deg. F vs regular HSS Titanium Nitrate units of only 600-800 Deg F. Offshore Drill bits often are only low % coated Cobalt or Titanium whch can break off and leave the operator having to sharpen like a regular high carbon drill bit very often. In closing North American Cobalt Drills cut faster at higher temps and pressure (cutting rate) than any other form of HSS Drill Bits from any Asian Manufacturer. I believe RC and Runswitt summed it up pretty well . P.S. You get what you pay for Bro !

This post was edited by ewalk on Sat, Oct 12, 13 at 19:07

Thanks and good info Ewalk. You nailed the breaking and re-sharpening but it still works better on Bed Frame’s angle (as I end my use). Bottom Line, I’m not Earning vs Low End Experimenting, Staying Active, Which would you use?

Attached is an examples:

1. Bed frame angle used to make a guard on added hydro oil filter to log splitter.

2. Un-prepped or ground arc welded joints that holds looks fair for the purpose.

3. Holes that were easy to drill with the HF TN cheap drill bits.

4. The angle is a bear to bend but all frame’s angle are not as hard to work with.

5. My 50 lbs of 1/8” E6013 Lincoln Electrodes lasted approx 10 yrs using 180 amp 50 yr old Arc Welder (it gets my small jobs and friends repairs done w/o come-backs).

6. I have always refused to do any welds with a liability (that angle use just started/ended vs M/S.

Speaking of welding rods: They have to be stored in a dry environment and sealed. An example would be a small microwave with a light on inside all the time to create heat. I'd be leery about using 10 year old rods unless they were in a perfect environment.

Loger: Baymee is absolutely correct welding rod flux coatings are very hygroscopic (absorb) moisture very quickly the Rod Heating / Storage cabinet is important to protect the quality of weld that the rod will produce. Also the Rod should be discarded any time the flux appears to be flaking off or is cracked. Normal Shelf Life is 2-3 yrs and usually a few mths for low hydrogen rods unless stored within a very specific environment. The basis of proper welding technique is surface preparation , proper rod storage and selection , proper heat range to enable adequate penetration.

Good welding rod storage info that I have heard since 1964 and respect. Sealed refrigerated dry storage was the language. I have used a sealed 5 gal bucket since retirement vs 2-3 mo turn over on rods. If I get the strength I need on non liability work, it’s repaired. I will buy smaller 5-20 lb canisters in the future due to cost and conditions.

Is the weld not safe if you have verified the flow/bonding while welding and tested it’s strength?

Loger, just a suggestion. I would run another piece of angle from the outboard end of the guard to the mount under the oil tank. If the guard gets bumped very hard when backing into position it'll shear one of the mounting bolts ramming the guard into the filter and possibly breaking some plumbing.
Mike

Loger: Not to try to establish you as a CWB or U-69 Certified Welder , but there are may issues that can effect the Quality of the finished welding process. Slag inclusion , porosity , uncutting , lack of penetration and weld distortion are the common faults resulting in poor adherence to basic welding procedures. In the case of base metal that you have used , preheating would have given a form of stress relief of the parent metal . This helps to normalize the metal and also assist with the beginning of the weld and reduces any weld distortion along the weld site whether a lap or butt joint type. Only a trained eye can determine welding liabilities consistently , thus dye penetrate , ultra sound and xray welding inspection proceedures. In your examples the hammer blow will indicate a adequate weld , lol if it bends at the weld point without any surface cracks then you have a malleable joint otherwise you have established one or more of the welding faults listed or have used the wrong rod for the project metal or to hot or cold welding heat setting . Welding is a Craft establishing the welding puddle and maintaining it in all 4 position takes yrs of practice , you have begun your Journey Grass Hopper :)

Thanks Mike, I will assure you that splitter seldom moves or at approx 2 MPH when moved. There is a 3/16 -1/4” thick band support over there due to the needed bends. The bolt’s head is showing on vertical and band inside the tire on the right and back to the frame (w/o a better view). The guard was a just incase I was helping a bad driver and my Over-Kill-Nature. LOL.

Thanks Ewalk, I should be certified with 50 yrs of training/experience, 40 certified classes workshops and experiences. I did what was required on the job and less on my hobby low end welding at home.

1. I do store rods in a sealed container in an interior dry area (low end E6013 mainly for my use).
2. I do cln if needed due to excess paint or rust or the 1st pass is my cleaning and weld.
3. With thick plate and 2-3 passes, I always ck the other side for penetration signs.

The Bottom Line is I w/n touch what a certified welder should be welding and only cool non stress welds. Refusing many welds has shocked friends. Plus, I’ve learned the old line, “it's just to get it home” is not true in many cases.

I would show some of my better welds on upgrades on the modified splitter but hate to get Beat-Up. LOL. I will show this mod of forcing the stringy Pecan wood to open wider to help splitting. Plus, the handle is 3/8” now after the less than ¼” broke off.

Nobody is beating anybody up. :) When I went to welding classes, everybody welded up a 90 out of flat stock. The instructor put it in the vice and with one hammerblow, he hit the end to break off the 90. Then we looked at the weld.

Well, there were some red faces and it wasn't from UV rays. I never forgot that little lesson and I always watch the angle of the wire, the distance from the puddle and the puddle itself. I can usually watch the puddle and know how good the weld is going to be when I'm done. Besides that, unless you're doing X ray welding quality, there is usually enough weld that it's not going to break as long as you have some decent penetration of both metals. I've never had a catastrophic break.

At work, one of the guys must have been trying to fill a 1/2" hole on the wall of a stainless drain, maybe 3/32" thick. It looks like the Rocky Mountains! It must stick up 1/2" from the surface as it got to the center of the repair. There is a technique of "buttering" the edges of a hole, whereby you can strengthen the edges of a hole in thin metal and then work inward without blowing through. Even with the correct heat settings, you can still get too hot and burn through. I'll have to take a pic tomorrow to show you all.

Anyway, good welding is accomplished through practice, practice, practice. Nobody starts out and knows it all. I did the best I could and improved from there. And after 30 years, I still need improving.

This post was edited by baymee on Mon, Oct 14, 13 at 19:04

Thanks For Having My Back. LOL. You nailed it with it takes, “Practice, Practice, Practice” that I am not getting now. I led some exercises in the past and apologized before my stress test of dropping projects onto the concrete floor to prove a point. Looking at the welds, I knew which corner to let lead the collapse of the project. If the project was nice and square vs poor welds, we struck a deal by marking bad welds vs showing and loss of painful assembly time. One collapse was a lesson that you very seldom saw again or lost a friend.

Loger: No flack intended just general information. We all have to learn somewhere. I still remember my 1st welding experience , during my Diesel Apprenticship in the early 60.s . It was Gas torch fusion welding back then with appropriate filler rod. My bib tops had more filler rod tip burn holes then a sprinkler hose . Baymee should remember this trial and tribulation during his learning stages . My second Welding upgrading was during my College upgrading during my Stationary Engineering 3rd Class Degree. We used 550 volt 3- phase Lincoln Industrial Welder in the early 70,s and it was required to weld 8 inch x 8 inch test coupons from 1/4 inch hot rolled steel plate in position. 2 complete 8 pass welds in all 4-positions (flat / horizontal / vertical / overhead) I really had a problem initially in horizontal position with undercutting the weld from to hot a heat setting . Most beginners have trouble with adequate penetration in overhead from to cold of a setting. Once completed we cut the coupon into 4 separate strips (vertical band saw) and bent them into a U within a hydraulic bender . If any of the welds cracked we flunked our CWB Exam. My second testing was again Stick welding during my Pressure Vessel Certification U-69 we were required to fabricate a 4 inch x 4 inch x 1/2 inch metal box from 1/8 plate complete with a 1/4 inch weldolet coupling. Once the fabrication was done the box was pressurized 600 psi until it ballooned and then was submerged in water to check for any weld failures (bubbles) identified and again you failed this 1st phase of testing . Before you even got into the Boiler Pipe Weld testing . So yeah have burnt a few sticks of Rod in my Day . Really liked 5/32 Jet Rod , lazy Welders Rod only for flat position welding . Hated Low Hydrogen nasty flux fumes very hazardous. Anyhow been a few yrs since I stick welded , most of my projects are with a Miller Mig these days. Like riding a bicycle you never forget but it will take some practice to get quality welds after a few yrs absence. I remember some of the best welders I worked with during my Industrial Days were the laziest , they could weld on their head once they found a comfortable position. Please take our advice in the fashion (constructive) it is intended all the best Bro :)

This post was edited by ewalk on Mon, Oct 14, 13 at 20:06

Thanks Ewalk and All, I respect and welcome constructive info, criticism, critiquing and ALL. At home the arc has been my life and all I’ve needed (cheap me) vs wire and heliarc training or consistent use.

This forum has some Very Positive Advantages/Info. I have not seen a True Negative IMO due to knowing Constructive Negatives are part of learning, sharing, life and Etc.

The Sharing Is Priceless! Plus, needed to try and pass on some skills that are almost history.

Neat Post/Subject Please. LOL.

With the advent of mig I fear O/A welding is a dying art/skill.
Mike

Yeah fusion welding with oxygen & acetylene gas is pretty well a craft . Only used on piping applications with butt weld welding of Sch. 80 under 1 inch nominal pipe sizes and under. Socket weld fittings of the same size are normally Arc or Mig application.

Mig welding isn't new. I'd say about the last 50 years. Here are the welds I saw at work. Nobody admits to this, so I guess some guy broke in and was helping us out. One is a repair of a hole and the other is a repair of a flange crack. Note the bead under the flange. These drains are from Germany.

xxxx