I have too many here and cull them out as needed to increase the light in the area or plant something else to increase diversity. Wild ones have unreliable color and most of mine turn yellow except the one that gets the most sun.

So, not my favorite tree, but it does have it's place in the wild - providing food for many insects (and the birds that feed on them), is very adaptable to a variety of soil conditions, and is an early succession plant for disturbed areas.

So I guess the answer for me is "yeah, they're good, but don't want too many". And I would not choose one for a specimen tree because there are way too many other trees that I like better. But it would be hardy!

Well I will say this about Acer rubrum... if there hadn't been an abundance of 'October Glory' and 'Red Sunset' available in fall of 2009 at Lowes, I may never have taken to planting trees. Soooo... they basically hooked me into the addiction I currently delight in.

Of the 8 OG I planted then, only 2 remain due to disease and culling for diversity sake. All 3 RS still stand proud and gave the universal sign of ill will salute to the heat and drought last summer. Didn't lose a leaf.

John

like me.. you should not limit your hatred only to rubrum.. but expand it to include all acer ... [not really talking here about JM's]

i am a hosta gardener.. hosta will not grow under maple.. i hate maple ... short logic chain there..

most likely ... the over-abundance is a function of bigboxstore ... where a vast majority of peeps.. go to buy their trees ..

ken

I have 3 Acer Rubrums (2 Red Sunsets and 1 October Glory) and I LOVE them so much. After my family, and our beloved cat, my trees are my babies. :) I think they are gorgeous, shapely, and perfect looking for one's yard, if the space is available. I live in Sugar Maple land, everyone around here has Christmas Trees and Sugar Maples, but at least in my neck of the woods, Im the only one with Acer Rubrums and I couldn't be more prouder or happier about that.

Look, I get why Ken Adrian and others think Maples are weeds, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone feeling that way. But for me, I lost my "planting virginity" to these trees; they are the first thing I ever planted in my entire life, and so you know what they say about first loves. lol

I am so sick of seeing conifers everywhere around here. Everyone has the same thing! Conifers are gorgeous and useful in their own right, but I am surrounded by them. I suppose living next door to a Christmas tree farmer doesn't help. Guh!

between writing my reply .. and hitting send [darn phone] .. it cracks me up that jon admitted bigboxstore addiction .. lol ...

and i want to know.. inquiring minds must know.. what trees does a woman whose name is ILOVEMYTREES.. what does she hate .. lol ...

and do know .. that my hatred of maple is a function of your yard size ... i actually have a couple on my 5 acres.. but back in suburbia.. what a nightmare ...

ken

Hey, ya know what, Ken? Thanks to that big box store impulse buy of... what, 11 maples 2+ years ago, I have spent thousands at nurseries online and in person so in a sense, they did end up supporting the private nurseries in the end! Who says they are all bad? ;)

John

Eh, people vary in what they like and don't like. So you don't like Red Maple... no biggie.

Personally there are LOTS of things that others love that I just can't stand. I hate Crepe Myrtles, but that has allot to do with so many left around ole run down abandoned houses while growing up, as well as being very bored and popping open the flowers before opening on their own. Thing is they were all medium pink, and so I can tolerate Crepes that aren't pink or white. Day Lillie's are much the same for similar reasons. I HATE Eastern Red Cedar. As far as I'm concerned the only way they are any good is as mulch around my Maples. :-O) But then I'm allergic to the live ones.

All this to say, sometimes there is no reason, sometimes there are reasons. Ken's are well known for Maples. Good for Ken, cause he will know what he wants to plant. Others love Maple or conifers, or ...... Just enjoy what you like and be happy about it.

Arktrees

Now that's funny. I would love to have a nice sugar maple or crape myrtle.... maybe not exactly in MY yard, but in the neighbor's would be great. and that only applies to the maple since I love sugar colors so much more than the red maple. I guess since both aren't so common around here that's got a lot to do with it.

Maybe I do have a general dislike of maples. I will always hate norway maple ( with a possible exception for the white variegated one) but silver maples are kinda growing on me. They get so fat and old looking in a fairly short time (reminds me of some people I knew) so as long as they are not near a house, driveway, sidewalk, garage, garden, sewer.... they look great.
I planted a paperbark maple last year.
I admire japanese maples, but don't want one... That's probably a stupid thing to say since it goes against thousands of years of oriental appreciation for what is more a piece of sculpture than a part of the garden.
hmmm I feel like I'm in therapy now.

Red maples do well from Florida up to Canada, I guess that's plus for them. Still I'm leaning towards less is more.

The main problem with the thing is that there is too much of it around, both in its native area and outside of it. And in my area so many plantings are miserable, due to them being made on dry, poor soils (contrary to popular perception, it's kind of dry here, with little rain falling during the height of summer).

there is nothing wrong with bigboxstore this time of year..

the stock is fresh ... usually properly labeled.. usually zone appropriate ...

and i know jon is a collector ...

but if you are a garden neophyte .. please understand that there is a whole world of options out there.. besides what is sitting in the parking lot of the hardware store ...

now.. once the heat of summer hits.. i would suggest you quit shopping at BBStore ... and think long and hard about buying late season bargains at such.. relying on the plumbing manager to have watered them properly all summer ... UNLESS they get new shipments at fall planting time ...

as always.. plant what makes you happy.. even if it is a maple.. but think about all the opportunity out there ...

ken

Folks:

I love red maples, but there are often better trees for specific situations.

Here's why I especially love red maples: two basic reasons.

First, their adapability: they can grow in almost any soil, and will tolerate--really thrive--in very wet soils, often being a very important tree in wetland forests. But they also grow--and thrive--on dry ridges. Once established they have very good drought tolerance, but newly planted trees should be watered, and watered for two or three years during droughts.

Second, and maybe more important, I love red maples because of their genetic diversity. It is one species, but often two individuals will look for all the world like they are from different species.

For example, the bark. I have seen trees with shaggy bark that would outdo any shagbark hickory. And I have seen trees with perfectly smooth white/silvery bark. And this diversity in bark is not related very much to age. One red maple I know of is a double trunked one with a diameter of each half of nearly three feet, and the bark is absolutely smooth, without any plates, ridges, or fissures. Beautiful! On my timberland I often see trees with each type of bark growing right next to each other-- the diversity is not just different geographical "races."

Well, I could go on and on. Growth form, leaf size and shape, and, of course, autumn color.

And spring bloom! Some trees produce male flowers that are as big and glorious as any mimosa. I love the colors red maple adds to a spring landscape. And the female flowers have different colors, slowly changing as the young seeds begin to mature.

Folks who don't like red maple--open your eyes and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. There is just so much to enjoy with red maples.

One thing I don't especially care for, however, is a long row of identical cultivars (clones). I often prefer the seedlings and the variety they offer. But on my land here near Winchester, I have about a dozen red maple cultivars.

--Spruce

"Drought tolerance" in Virginia is not the same as drought tolerance in a western North American climate, where humidity and precipitation fall off markedly right in the middle of the growing season, and the soil may remain dry for months afterward.

To be sure there are long established red maples in my area that are not likely to be getting a lot of intentional direct watering, if any. Some sites retain moisture better than others, or are moist during summer for other reasons. Terms that have been developed for the three basic sets of moisture conditions are water shedding, water receiving and water collecting sites.

Keep in mind too-and this could have something to do with the variation that Spruce mentions-red maple easily and frequently hybridizes with silver maple where the two are both present. These are called Acer freemanii, and this term includes all such hybrids, not just cloned cultivars such as "Autumn Blaze".

Where I live, it is a bit too limey for straight rubrum. But the natural cross I speak of is everywhere. Oftentimes, very decent trees I would add.

+oM

I like them a lot. Good looking, fast growing, large but not enormous, easy to get and inexpensive, a variety of cultivars to choose from.

That said, from what I've read, they are:

1.) Shorter-lived than some oaks.

2.) Thin-barked and vulnerable to trunk injury and decline for that reason.

3.) At least part of the time toxic to horses (I throw that in in case you're planting in or near a horse pasture).

4.) Widely planted, so if some disease on the order of 'Dutch Elm Disease' ever comes through targeting red maple, it could be a disaster. But then again, we've got emerald ash borer, oak wilt, sudden oak death, verticillium wilt, and some trees are vulnerable to Japanese Beetles, so is any true safe?

5.) A mature sugar maple in all it's glory is hard to beat. Reds have their advantage, but if you've got the patience and condition for a sugar maple...wow...

6.) Dense fibrous shallow root structure. I don't wish to disturb my trees' root zones near their bases planting hostas or whatever, but if you're determined to do so, it could indeed be a problem.

7.) While a number of trees are bad choices to plant in proximity to a septic tank/leach field, red maple is one of those recognized as 'less wise' due to the rooting system.

Richard.

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With a native range from Newfoundland to Manitoba south to eastern Texas and Florida you can be sure there's alot of variation. This one in my neighbor's yard is a cv.
I'll have Acer rubrum any day over the flowering tree that is showy for one week in the Spring and for the other 51 weeks you got nothing.

Tom:

No silver maples in the area where my timberland is. All the variation I see there is pure red maple.

Here in VA I am not sure they hybridize naturally--the silver maples are usually done flowering before the red maples bloom.

Also, in my limited experience with Freeman maples, their drought tolerance does not seem to be as good as the red maples. At least I have had to water my Freeman maples more carefully and for longer than I have had to do with my red maples.

--spruce

Since pictures of shown up, I thought I would post my favorite Red Maple photo from the fall of 2011. This was on the University of Arkansas campus. Unknown cultivar if a cultivar at all. Would love to have a consistent clone of this tree available. When I first saw it in person, I froze in my tracks and "wowwww!!!" came out without thinking. Others walking by had the same reaction. Stunning!

Arktrees

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Arktrees:

You have a true gem there. I love the orange/yellow under the red. Most of the red maple cultivars I know, are generally a more or less uniform scarlet or some shade of deep red. I prefer maple color with some orange and/or yellow mixed in.

If this tree were a cultivar, and you knew the name, I would order one. I have never seen a better one, anywhere. Absolutely gorgeous!

--spruce

I gotcha, Spruce. Actually, right after posting that, I envisioned getting just such a response from you. You would know of this possibility!

For whatever reason, I live in a hot spot for such hybrids. We have everything from pure sacharrinum (Silver) to pure red (rubrum), the latter of which are quite often chlorotic. And then there's the inbetweeners. Lots of those around here. They must flower concurrently and now I have something to check out in a month or so!

+oM

Tom:

After I sent my response about the different flowering times here, I had a second thought--they may overlap a bit. I have never observed that carefully. The silvers flowering here definately starts earlier, but I don't really know how long they release pollen. And some red maples are earlier than others. I will pay more attention now.

Where my timberland is on the Allegehny Plateau, Silver maple is not native, but in towns you can see one planted here or there.

I had no idea they were naturally hybridizing in some areas, and so commonly as in your area. I have never seen a naturally occuring hybrid, although I never really thought about the possibility before, so I may not have noticed even if I might have actually stood under one. And with all the diversity in pure red maple, maybe I would be fooled into thinking it was just more intra-species variation. Is there any one key characteristic that would tell me, for sure, which is a hybrid?

In your area, how are they for color?

--spruce

That's a great picture, those oranges and yellows really have a nice glow... I could almost like that tree! Just kidding, It looks amazing, I also like the mix of colors rather than the solid red. Imagine if there was a bright yellow ginko tree right next to it.... it kinda looks like there might be one behind it in the distance.

My parents planted one when I was about 6 years old. It has since been removed after lightening made it decline and die. When I was in my 30's it had gotten taller, but cast nearly no shade. As a shade tree it is useless. I like oaks, I have some oaks casting more shade after 6 years here than the 20 some years that red maple was here.

Spruce, those trees I speak of are in turn quite variable themselves in fall color. A key thing though is to see a tree that most anyone, including my Forestry colleagues would call 'Silver maple', but in which the fall color has definite red tones. Additionally, the leaves are shaped midway between red maple's strongly three-lobed and silver's deep sinuses. Right down the middle basically. But the biggest giveaway for me is the bark. What you have is a tree of silver maple's stature-very large-but with a much smoother bark than the straight silver maple that is growing right next door. The bark never gets so shaggy as the true silver, even when the tree is fully mature.

As long as we're on the subject, my land is just under 60 miles due north of the town I live in. But within that distance, there are certain changes in the makeup of the forest that are impossible to miss. Among these differences, there are no silver maples at all up there. But there are lots of red maple. And you're right-the spring flower show is amazing. Another little tidbit-there are no cottonwoods up there at all either. Not a one. While down here in Appleton, and in the Green Bay area generally, cottonwood occupies all the wet, waste places that are in recovery from disturbance. But just 58 miles north, none at all. I find such things immensely interesting and I'll bet you do too!

+oM

If maples weren't just so un-hardy! I would love to be able to successfully grow sugar or red maples, but they just aren't hardy. All the trees in this country turn yellow in the fall, which can get really beautiful, but a few reds would certainly liven things up.

Boxelder grow well and are a wonderful (though much maligned) tree, but not much fall color.

Would a person be able to graft a maple onto a boxelder rootstock to get around soil issues? That would only leave our zone 4 winters for the tops to get through?

Ken, aren't hostas over-rated? You get 4 months of glory. Not sure why you would give up 12 months of glory for that. If someone really had the desire to hosta garden then you plant a few smaller oaks. The Acer genus is not just limited to JMs and American maples.

Here is a link to fancy a few selections

I'm always floored that a guy (yeah you Ken!) has 5 acres and has let a silver maple create a naive mindset to hate (one of the) greatest deciduous genus in the world.

Acer rubrum is ok by the way. My favorite cultivars are 'Vanity' and Super Sonic Red.

Some those paperbark hybrids are fantastic , WOW!

Beeone, what you mean-maples are not hardy? I live in one of the coldest states in the union, and it's full of maples from top to bottom.

I presume that other factors than pure cold-hardiness are at play in your area, but "hardiness" is usually a word used to indicate the ability to survive in areas of cold winters.

Just saying.......+oM

We have native Red and Silver Maples in my area. but I feel pretty confident that nearly all of the Silver Maples have some Red Maple genetics mixed in. I saw that because while they are obviously Silver Maple, almost all of them develop various tones of oranges and red mixed in with the dull yellow that is the norm for the species. In fact some of them can be rather attractive, and some years actually have very good color. Both species can live side by side as well. Hybridization of these species probable occurs during those years where weather conditions happen to delay the flowering of the earlier species and/or speed the flowering of the later flowering species. The last couple of springs we have gone from prolonged cold of winter, to suddenly very warm mode resulting in earlier budding/flowering plants being late, while later budding/flowering plants being early. From there, they pass the genes around to their respective species.

Spruce, I think the reason you only see red selections of Red Maples, is because the growers that introduce new selections are suck on "the reddest available", and that goes for other species as well. Red is also probable more easily produced in a variety of climates, so that something that is red in Wis is also red in Arkansas. Also red obviously sales. Orange is may be more climate sensitive since it's intuitively a mix of yellow in red. Same thing happens with Sugar Maples as well to a lesser degree. I have said for some time, that for my area Red coloring trees are easy, yellow is easy, but oranges are tough to come by, because they are rarely selected for introduction. IMHO orange, and mixed colors such as above are highly neglected potential nursery market. As for this particular tree, it has crossed my mind to try to graft it, same with some native Sugar Maples that I know about, that almost certainly would be better adapted to warmer climates. Problem is, I don't have the space, nor expertise. Way it goes.

kato b, Yes that is a ginkgo yellow you see in the background. There are actually several ginkgos and hollies in along that building. Below are a couple of pictures of those. I agree, too bad they aren't side by side.

Arktrees

Link to my photobucket collection of photos from last fall.

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WoW! Those Ginkgos are simply to die for! The word "stunning" doesn't even come close to describing them! Thank you for sharing those pics.

If they weren't such slow growers I would have planted a few for my own yard.

beeone: "Boxelder grow well and are a wonderful (though much maligned) tree, but not much fall color."

you should check out 'Sensation' boxelder (see link)

Here is a link that might be useful: Sensation Boxelder

Oh no, this is turning into a maple love-fest. Sure a couple of the maples in that link were cool, but so are polar bears.... until they attack and eat you.

Come to think of it I planted a half moon and a paperbark maple last year. I may be closer to maple luvin than I care to admit.

Don't worry, you'll soon realize these trees won't attack and eat you. It doesn't have to be a guilty pleasure...just let the luvin happen.

Even ken, the Chairman of the Maple Haters Club has a few variegated Maples.

ilovemytrees, you are welcome. Follow the link above the ginkgo pics for allot more fall 2011 pics from my area. There are a few of ginkgo's in a local park you might like.

Arktrees

I used to never see Red Maples on my property until I cleared the Asian invasives, now they're popping up everywhere. Unfortunately they don't live very long here, about 20 years is the most you can get out of one before they decline. Fall color is lacking too, just a dull yellow.

I do have a few Southern Sugar Maples (A.barbatum), and they seem to be a much nicer tree with better fall color.

Living in an oak/hickory/maple forest in SW VA for yrs, I developed a dim opinion of Red maples. Few trees were damaged more in the 1994 ice-storm. A large one (80 ft) beside the house w/a double-trunk cracked from the split down to the base & died. Simply not a robust tree. Plus it is a persistent weed tree in the oak forest.

Even Silver maple is better, aesthetically. Sugar maple isn't the most elegant tree, but it is much more durable.

JMHO.

Even Silver maple is better, aesthetically. Sugar maple isn't the most elegant tree,

You might be the first person on record to state that!lol!

If you where to name the top 5 most stately and elegant trees, Sugar Maple would be a top contender on most lists and Silver at the bottom.

Its rare that a Silver Maple will develop a more aesthically pleasing silloutte than that of a Sugar Maple.

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Ben, karma is gonna get you for that crack! How you gonna feel the next time you pour some of that good ole Garrett County maple syrup on your pancakes? :)

Hey Sam! The only mature trees on my lot are Sugar maples & one giant Sycamore. One SM is 2.5' dia, 65' tall & branched near to the ground. After yrs, I appreciate the S maples more. Like I said, not really "elegant", but they are sturdy & keep their foliage in immaculate condition thru the season. No deeper shade can a tree make, and that's a good thing on a miserably hot day.

BTW, ken, I grow irises quite easily right up to the base of the previously mentioned tree. :)

Wow, are those all sugar maples!? I bet there's a glow when you walk up to the front door... and again it would be even brighter with one of those ginkos mixed in.

Ben I like your thinking, silver maples were even lower on my list until I lived with an old one in my yard. It was a branch dropper but had a fat majestic look to it that eventually won me over... and for some reason (probably mice or chipmunks) I never had a problem with all the seeds sprouting.

Didn't mean to hijack earlier, but looks like things are dying down a little. Maples have a tendency to winterkill here--at least all new growth from July on, and they are very difficult to establish.

The sensation box elder sounds very interesting. Native boxeldersThey like moist areas but survive pretty dry country once established and are found native in the low elevations up to about 4,000 feet or so. I have a magnificent boxelder which is just huge-probably 60' tall with a larger spread at 4,500 feet.

Not sure why most maples wouldn't be hardy here, but soil is alkaline and they just don't seem to do winters well.

OK beone, makes sense. I've been through Wyoming, specifically the part from Cheyenne to Casper, and then down to the Colorado border. So not the whole state by any means. But from what I saw in that area, no tree species is too interested in growing there!

+oM

I have a love/hate thing with rubrums. On one hand, they DO make a good med/large suburban yard tree with nice features. Having one or two (if two, I'd go with DIFFERENT cultivars or seedling trees for a little variation) in a large yard is fine. It's the overplanting EVERYWHERE that annoys me.

Sugar maples, to me, are some of the most majestic looking trees at maturity.

JM's, however, are awesome, and among my favorites.