Ok - I've decided that poly is the way to go, I believe unless someone else tell me different. I'm 100% with Beescorner that this is the setup I can afford and it will do the work. Here's what else I know.

I visited Rich's Foxwillow Pines last winter (in zone 5a Woodstock, Illinois) and he has exactly the setup (hoophouses) we've been discussing with the exception that he has running the lenght of the top of the hoophouse a tunnel that disperses heat evenly through the greenhouse/hoophouse - it's all the same to me. Anyway, he uses multiple layers and an inflator and the multiple layers consist of a white-colored poly on the outside. Everything they do there, is exactly what I'll be doing too. Like I said before, I only plan to use this thing in the dead of winter and until May or (mid) May. Then the grafts are removed from the house and potted up and brought outside. My only other consideration now is storage for these fresh grafts come the following winter(s). So I need either to have a 'true coldframe' or unheated hoophouse as option 2.

So, the only thing I ask is: who sells the cheapest poly?
Who sells the cheapest heaters assuming locally I don't have a connection? How much electricity do I need ran to a structure such as this? And I think I'll make life easy and buy a motorized exhaust fan with motorized intake shutters.

The heater needs to be 30,000 btu if I do not insulate the double poly or 21,000 if I do insulate a double poly structure being 8 feet wide by 14 feet long. So insulation I will do. Now, my last question (unless I'm forgetting anything) is can I simply put these pool covers over the outside of the 'structure' and fasten them to the ground, or do they need to somehow be attached in the inside as I was directed to do. Putting them on the inside, seems to me like a heck of a lot of awkward work.

Thanks folks!

Dax

DAX

I looked up the manufactures of the poly covering and ask them for a list of their distrubiters, I then call the ones that were nearest to me for prices. In the end however a local commercial greenhouse grower was good enough to sell me the poly for my 10x20. But contacting the manufactures first sure saves a lot of time, heres two of the producers. TYCO PLASTICS and CLERKS FILMS. The bender option is the way to go for sure since you are planning a second cold frame. I did rent a propane tank at first but the provider jacked up the gas price the second year, then I bought my own tank which gives the the option to buy gas from anyone. One last note on hoophouses. There is a reason so many commercial growers use poly hoophouses. What ever system you choose growing plants is a rewarding endevor.

That's right Beescorner.

Thanks again! (and take care) -

Dax

Anyone here have any ideas about how I could incorporate thermal mass at floor level and still have freshly grafted plants sitting on it. I can only think of a waterbed lining, but the plants will fall over.

Bottom heat I definitely need.

Thanks - D.

We have a local herb grower that uses pvc water pipes beneath the floor and uses a small pump to move warm water under the floor. He has a large pressure hot water tank and a smaller gas heater tank. He heats the water in the large tank during the day inside the G/H, pumping it under the plants at nite, the smaller gas heater tank is for backup. He alway has the best herb plants, his system is homemade but seems to work good. I have read were some bury larger pipes deep and blow warm air throug the during the day using the earth as the mass. It could be costly to install but sounds like it works, less costly to operate. I read this on another thread on this site but can not find it now.

Dax, do you want the cheapest poly? Pay more and you get UV protection, anticondensate, and IR additive, any one of which might prove beneficial to you. I'm not saying you need all of this, I'm just suggesting that you look at the whole picture not just the price.

Beescorner, we have discussed the air system here a number of times. It requires hundreds of feet of 4" tubing, small loops which return to centrally located 55 gal drums with fans. Nathan has appropriately voiced concern about mold and condensation.

Dax, what about a cattle panel hoophouse?

I have Sixteen 18 gallon Plastic tubs that fit snuggly under my greenhouse benches, this has been providing a nice thermal mas right under the root zone of my plants

Just curious, did you outgrow the HFGH or did it fail in some way?

Dax,

When you go to heat your new house you may want to consider an outdoor wood furnace instead of an indoor wood stove. The heat is central, it can heat your hot water too and you can run heat to the GH from it. In addition you load it up with wood once or twice a day (depending on the furnace you buy) unlike an indoor stove where you put wood in several times a day. If you have access to wood for burning it's one of the best ways to go.

MollyD

Stressbaby

I did make mention of the high cost of installing a air flow thermal mass system. Much has been written on this subject and many different and inovative plans are available out there. What you discribed sounds as though you recommend it should be ruled out. My research on this is quite the opposite. The mold and condesation can be over come very easily. I have reveiwed plans of working systems that use much less pipe that you suggest. I have lived long enough to understand that nothing should be ruled out.
As for plastic goes any quality UV stablized greenhouse poly will work fine for conifers intended use preferably white.
"Conifers" the white poly you speak of is widely used around her by shurb and tree growers. They refer to it as white propagation poly. Just go with a 4 year grade, Tyco Plastics manufactures most of the greenhouse film in this country. there are others of coarse. There is a company in in the eastern US called E. C. Geiger Inc 1-800-443-4437. Check with them may service your state also. The one thing I agree with stressbaby on is look at the whole picture not just the price, However don't forget to turn the page there's more pictures to see.

Thanks everybody - I don't want to come off as a cheapskate, I'm not, I do plan on buying decent (thicker)quality poly, but I did need to know extra details like "white propagation poly", etc. I haven't looked at Stressbaby's link yet, but am currently thinking about the herb growers heating system. That's pretty much what I believe Rich's Foxwillow Pines Nursery must use as I was told he had water flowing under the beds of sand (at ground level).

Thermal mass (if I could guanantee efficiency) is prefferable of course, but I'm guaranteed a warm base day and night with running water. That I need to re-read once again.

Beescorner - I'm adding information such as poly distributors and everything else actually to a word document. And everybody else I cannot begin once again to thank you all.

The outdoor wood stove has peaked my interest. A lot! So... where are these purchased or what is the typical run of the mill price, please? My home is 920 square feet which leads me to another person's question regarding my current Harbor Freight, - well, I'm moving to a lot of acreage and building a new house as I mention, 'in the boondocks.'

That underground pipe system seems a bit too much for my taste(s), but thank you folks..

Jimmy - I understand your thermal mass quite well. It's fantastic and would work great for stuff up off the ground, but for this hoophouse and how my plants will need to be at ground level, that unfortunately isn't a solution. I thank you though for bringing your ideas to me.

I think I'll just limit my greenhouse to bottom heat at ground level and other tree seedlings, I'll grow without bottom heat on benches above. That solves a lot of frustration if anything.

Thanks so much everybody - Stressbaby, I haven't looked at your link, but assume it might have something to do with manure as 'thermal mass'. I'll check it out right now.

(Many thanks)

Dax

P.s. I ask - and assume that the outdoor wood burning stove is 'supplemental' as well as could be used full time... is this a safe assumption? I will do a little research...

Re: Cattle Panel Hoophouse - basically what I'm thinking about doing...

Thank you,

Dax

Conifers

One last note.
The largest tree/shrub grower around here operates a 1,200 acre tree farm. They use a series of eight 12x96 foot hoop houses covered in white poly for all of their grafting and propagation needs, 4 are heated and 4 are unheated. I had a chance to talk to the propagation manager once. He stated that the 12 wide hoophouse was the best all around choice, easy maintaince & supports ice and snowload best. They do have about 200, 20x96 houses for tender second and third year seedlings. Their 20 wide hoop houses are from several different sources, but they have added center support post every 8 feet in the 20s because they are unheated, just cold frames. The support insures the snow loads are not a problem, and they don't cause a problem with placement of seedlings. Many of their 20s don't even have end on them. They just serve to keep the winter snow and ice off the young plants.

Best of luck in you adventure.

"The outdoor wood stove has peaked my interest. A lot! So... where are these purchased or what is the typical run of the mill price, please? My home is 920 square feet which leads me to another person's question regarding my current Harbor Freight, - well, I'm moving to a lot of acreage and building a new house as I mention, 'in the boondocks.'"

Dax,

Your house is much smaller than ours (2200 sf)so you could use a smaller unit which with installation would probably run you around $7000. when all is said and done if not less. There are numerous companies that deal with these. Two that come to mind are Classic http://www.centralboiler.com/ and Aqua Therm http://www.aqua-therm.com/. As I said there are many others, a google search for outdoor wood furnaces should lead you to a source in your area. They're really good for those living in remote areas. If you are a handy person you can pick yours up yourself and install it. I don't know what, if any, codes govern your area but you should look into that before you sign any purchase agreements.

MollyD

Conifers
I almost fogot, here is a interesting item on ebay on building a root zone heating system yourself. They did not mention floor installation so I emailed the seller and ask if it could be used as an in ground floor setup . They said that it could be installed in the floor easier that the table tops as they had pictured and was often installed in that manner. It's an ebook and just $7.00. It's offered by the same seller as my bender came from. I found the heating thing today when I ordered a 20 ft bender from them so I purchased it also. Gary looked it over and said it was very do-able. He's going to install one in floor of my 10x10 mushroom house we're building and use a 20 gallon water heater.

Beescorner, could you post links to the buried air systems? A couple of years ago I had a link to plan, a demonstration greenhouse, but I didn't save it and I've spent a great deal of time looking for it without success. I recall that the demonstration greenhouse was out west somewhere, perhaps Colorado or Wyoming.

I'm not ruling it out. But I've only seen one link to such a demonstration project a year ago, and now I can't find it. If it works that well, where is all the data on it?

My neighbor, a creative guy, tried such a system in the art studio he built for his wife. As I recall, it used a single "loop" of 6 inch pipe. It did not work at all.

A variation on ther thermal mass that I use, could be 4 or 5 inch pipes Buried length wise in the ground, so that the top edge is flush with the ground and will in the area between the pipes with dirt.
If you get enough solar heating during the day, these pipes could just be capped on the ends to hold the water in.

If you do not get enough solar heating, you could circulate water from the pipes to an area near your heater using a Low Flow pump. Basicaly as was suggested earlier.
You would not need to circulate the whole water volume, per say, you could just use a stepdown manifold from Multiple 5 inch pipes, down to a 1 inch or half inch pipe that is run near the heater, and then circulate back to the large pipes again with a Manifold.

Just doing a partial volume from the pipes should work fine since you are going for a 55 Degree temp (I am basing this on the hope that you are looking for 55 degrees for the rootzone, and not foliage temperatures)

Wow, I'm on it Beescorner - great link! You're making life very easy. I really appreciate it.

Thanks again Jimmy - I really think for me this other method is best. Plus to be honest, I'm not smart enough to understand what you're talking about, whereas the Ebay link I'm sure is golden simple.

Molly - my mom did some research - I'm an early riser/early to bed and I appreciate your help, but there are a lot of negatives to an outdoor wood burning stove that she found.

Here's a link for those of you interested in this stove. As my mom said, it does have a lot of negatives.

Thank you!!

Dax

Dax,

that information is sadly out of date. 20 years ago the outdoor furnaces produced that pollution but the new ones are designed to burn clean and do not make that mess. Suggest you investigate further. They're very popular in our area, Fingerlakes region, which is a tourist pit!

Molly D

I will then Molly. I've sent them to my mother who's in charge of this endeavor.

Many thanks,

Dax

Beescorner - I've bidded on that pipe bender for a 10' wide house. I'm going to purchase that other bottom heat information right now. Thanks again!

Beescorner - I bought that Ebay digital file. I assume the seller has to send me a seperate email as it didn't show up even though I made payment. So, how long did it take for you guys to receive the file? (What a deal)

Also, that bender tool, it looks like something you attach to the side of a truck. I have a bid on it, but could you tell me a little more about how it is used, please..

Thanks,

Dax

Beescorner - you mention the use of an attic fan for your exhaust (fan). And too that it is ran from a thermostat. My question, does this fan or I should say, is this fan open at the back at all times, and if so, are other 'professional' greenhouse exhaust fans the same way?

Another question - could an attic fan be used and behind it have shutters that open/close as the fan kicks on? I'm just trying to visualize how yours is set up.

-Dax

Dax
Just got back from church..

We got the attic fan at Home Depot, The shutters that match the fan are sold separate. Mounted the exaust fan high inside the g/h on the end oppiste the door, The shutters attached over the fan on the outside. We got an extra shutter and cut a matching hole in the alum. portion of the storm door at the other end, but mounted the shutter inside surface of alum. panel so it swings open towards the inside of g/h, when the fan kicks in. Gary made a harware cloth cover to go over the fan on the inside and of coarse the shutter covers the fan on the outside and swings open outward just as installed on a house attic. I was told that these fans would not last inside a greenhouse. But Gary put one in our older wood greenhouse 8 years ago and was still working when we tore that g/h down. I've learned, when any product is described as "greenhouse" fan, heater,blower,ect the price is 4 times as much. For cir. inside the g/h we use cheap 20" box fans from wal mart, I saw the used in a commercial set up several years ago the work fine.

Our heat table download got to as soon as we paid, shoot them a email about that, they have always replied to my emails fast. I'll look for the links to the air systems.

Gary is standing behind me in the advising mode, ha ha.
making sure I get it right.

Dax, the advantage of the internet, and forums like this, is that you get to take advantage of the collective wisdom of the group.

"when any product is described as "greenhouse" fan, heater,blower,ect (sic) the price is 4 times as much"

I have bought both types. The GH type lasts four times as long. To some extent, you get what you pay for.

Beescorner - been napping. 20 bucks is fine with me even minus the shutter. I was quoted from Charley's for a 12" fan with thermostat (219 bucks) and that doesn't come with shutters. The motorized (same 12") 'system' (1 fan 2 motorized shutters) - 538 bucks.

I think I might check into motorized shutters opposite the exhaust fan still, but no how no way am I going to dish out that kind of money when you guys use simple hardware cloth for pennies on the dollar, a fan for 20 bucks and 'who cares' what the shutter costs for the back of the fan. Thanks very much for all your time, and Gary's! he he. I'm looking to make money - not spend it! lol

Very good folks. And Beescorner - enjoy your new mushroom 'hut'! Later.

Dax

"I have bought both types. The GH type lasts four times as long. To some extent, you get what you pay for."

Wow SB! Sounds like your right 100% of the time.

As I said eairler, the plain Jane home depot was still going after 8 years and is being installed in my mushroom house as we speak. I expect it will run another 8 years no problem. Other friends have also used them in their g/h for years. In your own words "take advantage of the collective wisdom of the group." I understand the word group to mean more than one! I'm beginning to believe that you dislike me for some reason? If I have offened you in any way it was not intended and I'm sorry if I did. This forum is to post ideals and experience which is what I do. I make several trips to my g/h each day carefully to avoid the cow patties my 65 cows leave in vast numbers, and from time to time a chicken feather may find it's way to my nose as I gather eggs, Yep I'm a farm girl, On a good day if I feel good enough it takes me three hours to walk across my farm but I stop often to admire natures creations. I live in an old farm house built in the 1930s and love every day of this life. I don't know why you so against me posting my veiws and experience and your trying so hard to convience others your ideals are best. Your acting like your authority is being challenged, (It's not) Let them decide whats best suited for their needs.

Just a plain old farm girl
Bee

Hi
DAK
No napping here, I got Gary working on the mushroom house and I just finished trimming the hoofs of our goats,We paid $39.00 for the attic exaust fan at home depot and I think the matching shutters were $18.00 each. The box fans to cir air inside at wal mart for $12.00. I have only had to replace one box fan in 8 years.

Did you get the heating table info yet? Which size bender did you get?

I'll be busy for a few days, will be going to New Mexico for fun fun fun in the sun. Gary won't let me go to Vegas anymore.

Best of luck

Dax
The exaust fan works well for my greenhouse setup. If your g/h is much larger you may need to get the next size up or two of the fans side by side. My fan changes the total cf of air out in about 1 1/2 minutes, every minute is ideal. but it does the job. I'm still tring to find my old links on the air/mass, I got it somewhere on one of these computers.

Getting packed for NM trip tonite, be back Friday.

conifers,

Just today I got the YEARLY bill for my tank rental. $36.

$36 a year, $3 a month. Anything goes wrong with it and they fix it. I know that if you rent a tank then you are tied into a supplier of propane but any problems and they fix it.

As to the installation, if you rent a tank they install it and the pipes to the house. Also, if I contract to using propane as my sole source of water heating and my primary source of home heating I get a new, free, water heater installed every five years, or whenever it fails.

Hi Beescorner,

I bought the 10 foot bender. After I wrote earlier I called the guy and spoke extensively with him for maybe 20 minutes, half an hour. We talked about the bender and the options for the heat pipe water system. The link did show up, it just took 5 minutes! Impatient me...

The guy is extremely friendly, knows what he's talking about, and from my conversation I can tell everyone here he just wants to help ordinary people like himself actually. He was very pleasant to speak to.

I'm sorry Stressbaby, but Beescorner is right. All this talk of what you pay for is what you get is really silly. I know you know "Guy" starhillforest and today he said to me after we chatted, 'Dax you should use an Attic Fan for an Exhaust Fan'... The 'guy' has been around the block a few times, and he too without coincidence mentioned the same thing, in fact even elaborated to say that he knew 'a lot of people who use them for greenhouses.' For those of you who I'm just bowing wind too who don't know "Guy", well he lives in Illinois and has an arboretum.

Guy also had some other real good recommendation (I sent him a copy of my house floorplan) and he said that I may consider excavating the whole deeper for the prophouse so it actually rests in a hole. I had forgotten but that would provide less energy to keep warm and also easier to keep cool. Or at least that's how I remember this way of going about things.

Lastly, he noticed right away on my floor plans that I had a deck off the front. He said, excavate that too so you can move under it and use it for storage instead of building additional hoophouses; makes perfect sense.

Well, Stressbaby, 'everybody' - I appreciate you all chipping in. I'll have my contractor figure out how much juice my greenhouse will need, so that's about one of the last things I'm not aware of at this time.

Beescorner, I don't know what you're looking for (the air/mass thing) - but I surely won't mind reading more!

And yes, it was a collective thought to get my prophouse off the ground!

Many thanks you all,

Dax

Attic fans,

Yep use them, they work great, but do not mount them horizontally, as in on the end walls. Mount them on a slope.

If you put them on the end walls then build an angled base for them.

(for them that wants to get technical then it is all in the bearings for the motors.)

:)

Thanks Chris. Lookin' good. Later.

This is my compiled list of information. If you see any holes missing or know of manufacture's for certain products I'm currently missing, that would be great:

Prophouse 2007 Plants 10 x 14
Poly:
TYCO PLASTICS
CLERKS FILMS
E. C. Geiger Inc 1-800-443-4437
"Conifers" the white poly you speak of is widely used around her by shurb and tree growers. They refer to it as white propagation poly. Just go with a 4 year grade, Tyco Plastics manufactures most of the greenhouse film in this country. there are others of coarse. There is a company in in the eastern US called E. C. Geiger Inc 1-800-443-4437. Check with them may service your state also. (Beescorner GW member).

Exhaust:
12" attic fan home depot 40 bucks an option. Placed on back wall up high
From Beescorner (GW member):
Exhaust: It was recommended that they be mounted at an angle makes sense to me.
We got the attic fan at Home Depot, The shutters that match the fan are sold separate. Mounted the exhaust fan high inside the g/h on the end opposite the door, The shutters attached over the fan on the outside. We got an extra shutter and cut a matching hole in the alum. portion of the storm door at the other end, but mounted the shutter inside surface of alum. panel so it swings open towards the inside of g/h, when the fan kicks in. Gary made a hardware cloth cover to go over the fan on the inside and of course the shutter covers the fan on the outside and swings open outward just as installed on a house attic. I was told that these fans would not last inside a greenhouse. But Gary put one in our older wood greenhouse 8 years ago and was still working when we tore that g/h down. I've learned, when any product is described as "greenhouse" fan, heater,blower,ect the price is 4 times as much. For circulation, inside the g/h, we use cheap 20" box fans from wal-mart, I saw these used in a commercial set up several years ago, they work fine.

Intake Shuters:
Need (2) 16" on front usually they are placed in bottom corners.

Propane Heater:
21,000 btu with double poly and insulation (bubble, pool cover, etc)

Need a blower for inbetween poly layers cheap

Frame:
We looked at Charleys method also and it is not a bad option. But we wanted a metal frame hoophouse style like the commercial growers use. We found a small company that sells greenhouse tubing benderson Ebay an got one for bending 10 ft. wide hoops we only paid $39.00 for the bending tool and built our 10x20 for about $300.00 UV poly cover included. You may want to take a look at this option it worked great for our budget and built a nice greenhouse we are already started a second greenhouse for my mushrooms. On ebay the bender tools are called "greenhouse tubing benders" These people have a website also I posted it below but they sell them cheaper on Ebay. I think this is the best new option for do it yourself people like us. http://www.lostcreek.net/
Insulation:
Pool cover
Bubble Insulation

Work Bench picnic table right in center of greenhouse
Thermal mass:
(option: black water filled area the grafts rest on however probably wont work.
Additional options:
When you go to heat your new house you may want to consider an outdoor wood furnace instead of an indoor wood stove. The heat is central, it can heat your hot water too and you can run heat to the GH from it. In addition you load it up with wood once or twice a day (depending on the furnace you buy) unlike an indoor stove where you put wood in several times a day. If you have access to wood for burning it's one of the best ways to go.
Weve ruled this out.

Root Zone Heater (Ebay Item "how to book" from same seller as bender tool:)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Heating-Mat-Tables_W0QQitemZ110014715151QQihZ001QQcategoryZ47103QQcmdZViewItem
Info from friend:
I almost forgot, here is a interesting item on ebay on building a root zone heating system yourself. They did not mention floor installation so I emailed the seller and ask if it could be used as an in ground floor setup . They said that it could be installed in the floor easier that the table tops as they had pictured and was often installed in that manner. It's an ebook and just $7.00. It's offered by the same seller as my bender came from. I found the heating thing today when I ordered a 20 ft bender from them so I purchased it also. Gary looked it over and said it was very do-able. He's going to install one in floor of my 10x10 mushroom house we're building and use a 20 gallon water heater.
GW member "Beescorner" ask for help if needed she sent me the bender tool info and the bottom heat Ebay digital file info. (note to self).
PDF File (My Documents) "Table Heating Guide Greenhouse" (Instructions) Adobe File. Saved. Sent to mom as well.
Blower for poly need to find one.
Circulation Fans Walmart, etc. (20")

Additional thoughts: Guys:
Consider excavating under the deck for potted plant storage.
Sink greenhouse into the ground to control heat loss and help cool it in the summer. Ventilation (an attic fan) works great.
Wood stove in the house instead of fireplace.

Thank you ladies and germs!

Dax

Dax, the guy in IL has given you good advice on sinking the greenhouse. Mine is built this way. Watch the drainage, you don't want a mudpit. Consider perforated drains under gravel.

My "you get what you pay for" comments refer to HAF fans. I have no experience using attic fans for exhaust fans, although some knowledgable people here have recommended against this practice in the past, citing humidity concerns. Regarding HAF fans, I currently have 2 wall mounted GH HAF fans continuously running 24/7 for 2.5 years without failure. I have used intermittently the inexpensive WM fans in the winter for supplemental HAF and the first one failed after 6 months. Given superior functionality and longer life, if I were doing it over again, I would rely primarily on the fan designed for the GH.

Good luck.

Hi to all

Just got settle into my room. Love this NM weather make me want a rock garden. I must include my husban Gary, he does the work although I am there with him. He does not like computers, but there is hope for him yet.

Dak
The air/mass I refered to is the under ground solar heat sink arrangement, I have a lot of info somewhere but it's been a while since I veiwed it, I will find it. For condesation ther installed the piping on a slight slant and installed a bio drainage filter into a french drain. For mold they use a simple UV light arrangement in the air flow system.

On the attic fans We were told the same thing, "that humidity was the deciding factor" mostly by greenhouse supply sales persons. Being the hard headed type we are "so prove it" Gary worked in the a/c business for 18 years. He placed a wet bulb thermometer in our attic and one in the greenhouse and monitered them for several months. He is not the type to wait for proof he does it himself. We have a lot of wet weather and 70% of the time the humidity in both were almost the same. As stated eariler by Chris "Its in the bearings" and I say every thing else is sales pitch. A quaility attic fan is just as good as the Quote "Greenhouse Fan" with all the w/bells.

I really like the sunken greenhouse ideal, I've though about it before and we have a perfect hillside facing south, good drainage. but that's another project another time.
Will be busy for a day or two, but I will be back.

Best to you all.

Have a good time. Talk later.

Dax

Got back from NM this morning. It's sure good to be home. Our greenhouse bender to bend the 20 foot hoops came in while we were gone, we're going to get the 20x30 frame up this year may not get it covered until next year. My 10x10 mushroom house is near finished only couple more days, and just intime to get them inside before bad weather hits.

DAX
I guess you already have your bender? I called them when I was in NM about our bender order. While I was on the phone with them they told me that they had just launched a new web site and were running the benders at $39.99 everyday price for a while in order to promote the new site. You may want to make a note of that site also in case you need another size later it's www.hoopbenders.net I got our poly covering for the first g/h from a local nursery but they don't have any at the moment so we ordered some from the same people as the benders.

Hope all is going well for you. Keep me posted.

Hi Beescorner,

You know I'm pretty much at the same place and the only current question that's been circulating in my mind the past few days is how deep of a trench (not including drainage and rock floor depth) so that this approximately 6 foot frame is sticking above the soil line. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that having 1/2 of the house buried and the other 1/2 above is perfect because that way, the exhast fan and shutters will be above ground level. What I don't know is how much deeper than this 3 foot trench I need to go for installing drainage and how much of a depth I need to set aside for putting in coarse rock and then the final product I was thinking about using is a very fine rock that I tamper down. I do have the benefit of having been around when a huge greenhouse went up for the city of Portland, OR and I got to see (and work) on the floor. From what I remember which has kind of left my brain, is that the white course rock must have been about 1 or 1 1/2 feet and that the fine white rock was just a few 3 inches or so 'piled on' and then it was tampered down with a gas operated tamper (I actually ran the thing) until it was all very nice and flat etc.

The other question that comes to mind is that obviously I need to have the trench bigger than the house so I can walk around the sides and repair it when necessary etc.

As to the bender tool. I had to wait over two days for the ebay auction to end and then it was sent yesterday. ..thanks for the new website. Loy did tell me about it, but I didn't write it down.

Also, in the meantime, I called up an Ohio company that I bought my grafting knife from on recommendation from a friend and I got a whole bunch of quotes. The company is A.M Leonard. Here's what I got so far and take into consideration that they didn't have 'exact products' but others for substitution that would work just as well. Then yesterday (and it may or may not be a good deal but I ask for your opinions) I saw an ad in the Farmtek Catalog for a complete kit, and I'll run that one down piece by piece as well.

Welcome back to good old Illinois lady. Here we go everyone:

A.M. Leonard:
Link To Home Page

No propane heaters.

Roll of White Propagatin Poly 4mil (12'x110') 57.42 - item number: 12110W047

4 mil UVC poly 14' wide @ 1.77 a foot (both are 4 year) Item #: MR714U46C

Blower/Inflator (this seems high) 130 bucks. Item#: aik

One motorized intake shutter measuring 31" x 30" - Item#: CF3930

Thermostat (two things can be hooked up to one thermostat) - Item#: T42 (103 dollars). Need two or maybe three of these from what I understand. (Help???)
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Farmtek 'special':
FarmTek Home Page

'Extra Large Pack (104733 - Item #)
You get:
30,000 btu Pro-Com Blue Fame Heater (propane or gas)
Control blower for Blue Flame Heater
7,500-15,000 btu Orbis Direct Vent Heater (what's this???)
20" ValuTek Direct Drive Exhaust Fan with Shutter
2 - 12" ValuTek Combo Air Circulation Fans
24" Valu Tek Motorized Heavy Duty Alum. Intake Shutter
2 NEMA 4 Durostat - Dual Voltage, Waterproof Thermostats
'Attractive' 2-Tiered Cedar Bench
50' 5/8" High Flow Coil Hose
28" Watering Wa (wand I assume)
Heavy duty pistol grip sprayer

All for 709 bucks the way I 'read' it. Otherwise this item number, 105440 is the correct price. I don't know though - need to call.

Dax

Hi,

Farmtek said that the difference is the heater involved in the package.

For the 709 deal I would get the Procom Heater

For 1,129 dollars I would get the Orbis Heater.

That's the difference. So above this post, I've written that I get two heaters. That's wrong. This info is correct and of course both packages come with all the other items I listed.

That 709 bucks sure seems reasonable and plus the company is in Iowa. I'm going to call back and ask about shipping or pick up right now.

Thanks and let me know again what your opinions are.

Dax

More good news. I'm beginning to think this farmtek is a heck of a deal (and convienient)

They can ship 155 pounds to me (the entire package) for 71 dollars (no sales tax). Also, the entire 709 dollar price has no sales tax either.

I don't want to jump the gun, but it's on sale right now and it has it all. I'll wait before I buy to hear from you folks.

Thanks!

Dax

Hi DAX

I had to take a look at that package and man is sure looks good, I may jump on it myself, a good value.

Still looking for the air heated thermal mass floor heating link, I may have to go through old email and find the link that way, it was sent to me by a friend a while back. I have posted another interesting link below to solar heating,I had bookmarked tons of links on this, maybe to much to sort through, but i'll get there.

On recessing the house into the ground

"The other question that comes to mind is that obviously I need to have the trench bigger than the house so I can walk around the sides and repair it when necessary etc."

I have not read any spec's on having an open space in the recessed treanch around the g/h for repair options. All the designs i've seen show direct contact with the earth using lower walls made of suitable. I plan on using just the top portion of the 10 ft. hoops which would be about 5 feet tall mounted to concrete block walls that are 4 feet high. As for the gravel thickness compactions I'll have to find the link but as memory serves me the gravel for it was less than 12 inches with 3" of finer materials on top of that.

I'll get more info on this soon

Hi Beescorner,

That's what I thought about that FarmTek package. Only thing not included is that little blower/inflator for between the poly. Otherwise it looks to be a done deal to me.

Now I 'think' I understand what you say when burying the prophouse - let me see if I understand. The entire house is in the trench. This is what you said that I don't understand:

All the designs i've seen show direct contact with the earth using lower walls made of suitable. I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say, "suitable."

Then, I'll admit that I don't understand how the bottom of the house is in direct contact with ground but also is 'monted to 4 foot side walls of concrete block'. I just don't understand...

Could you explain that once more please.

I'll check back in tonite around dinner. I'm off pretty soon to look at corn burning stoves for the house and wood burning ones as well and also to probe the guy there about the possiblity of using one in a hoophouse just to see if it could be used. I really doubt however I'd go that route but I might as well ask.

Have a good one -

Dax

Hi Beescorner,

That's what I thought about that FarmTek package. Only thing not included is that little blower/inflator for between the poly. Otherwise it looks to be a done deal to me.

Now I 'think' I understand what you say when burying the prophouse - let me see if I understand. The entire house is in the trench. This is what you said that I don't understand:

All the designs i've seen show direct contact with the earth using lower walls made of suitable. I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say, "suitable."

Then, I'll admit that I don't understand how the bottom of the house is in direct contact with ground but also is 'monted to 4 foot side walls of concrete block'. I just don't understand...

Could you explain that once more please.

I'll check back in tonite around dinner. I'm off pretty soon to look at corn burning stoves for the house and wood burning ones as well and also to probe the guy there about the possiblity of using one in a hoophouse just to see if it could be used. I really doubt however I'd go that route but I might as well ask.

Have a good one -

Dax

Dax, I agree with Beescorner...with this concept, in the trench you build a low wall of "suitable [material]" meaning concrete, block, or other similar strong material capable of withstanding the pressure of the earth on this GH wall. You backfill earth so that is is direct contact with the wall. The GH kit, hoophouse, or whatever is then erected on top of the block or concrete wall. No part of the kit.

I wonder if you don't lose any advantage by leaving a gap around the GH.

Laymens terms: Any structure is 'raised' in height because it sits a top a 'wall foundation' - thus 'raising' it and at the same time giving you insulation being that the plant material is protected by a trench.

Now my next question of course is that it would be safe for me to assume that such a cubic foot 'expansion' would require less energy to keep at 'constant temperature'...correct?

So in all actuality, the house doesn't ever 'sink' into a trench but rather it is at ground level, laymens terms once again. Right?

This afternoon, that's how I pictured Beescorner's words shortly after my last post.

Sure, I could agree as you say Stresser, but that doesn't mean I'm understanding either of you right now. Actually now that I go back up and read your comments, Stressbaby, You mention (a kit) which I don't understand what you mean by that; Also, you mention now about (leaving a gap around the greenhouse) which now I too am not understanding what that means.

Now I'm really lost of course.

Somebody spin me back around please.

Thanks,

Dax

Hi,

Is this what is meant except the walls would be underground?

(From thread on greenhouse sealants for polycarbonate)

Nice greenhouse.

Thanks,

Dax

That's basically it. You build your GH on top of that block wall. If your wall is 2' high andncompletely "buried," then that adds 2' to your GH height, good for tall plants, but it adds to the heating bill!

Of course, if you didn't need the height, you could use a GH kit designed for a knee wall, and thus save on your heating costs a bit. SB

I guess (thanks by the way) I won't dig a hole then. I don't need the height:) Nor the heating bill! lol

Thanks Stressbaby,

Dax

Hi. All

Sorry But I've been a bit under the weather lately and tring to get catch up, guess I caught something while in NM.

In a earth recessed structure, The hole is excuvated, a block or concrete wall to the desired heigth is installed and the outside surface of the blocks is then water proofed before backfilling with earth. If you have the bending tool, you can build a 10 ft hoop which is only about 5 foot tall (Call Lost Creek for info on performing this) as opposed to building them as directed. these shorter hoops can then be mounted on top of a three foot block wall for a 8 foot G/H. which has three feet submerged into the earth. Of course this is best done on a hillside so that one end is accesable. The advanatage here is that the blocks and earth behind them store heat. This can be a great savings in heating greenhouses. However the cost can also be quite high. It's an option and I intend to build one in the future without any installed heater for growing cold crop vegs. However if your plants don't require the warmer temps during winter and many hardy trees don't, the expense of this may not the way to go.
BEE