Can I grow Gallicas in the South? Recommendations please!

14 years ago

Last year a woman in Raleigh (North Carolina) gave me some suckers from a gorgeous rose in her garden. She identified it as Rose de Rescht. I hadn't had good luck with Portlands so I didn't expect much, but a few of the suckers rooted (they had a rough time before I could get them into a pot), and this spring they had buds. I stopped back to tell her of the success of the suckers and she told me that she had made a mistake in identification, and that the rose was really Belle de Crecy.

When I started growing roses a few years ago, I lost my heart to the Gallicas. But I live in North Carolina (z7b) and I thought I understood that Gallicas could only be grown in the North, so I (eventually) concentrated on Chinas and Teas.

Is Belle de Crecy an anomaly because of her China blood? If not, could some of the more southern Gallica growers recommend ones that do well down here (and warn me about those that don't). I live close to Raleigh and am, if anything, a bit colder in the winter.

I don't have any problem with once-bloomers; I lose my second flush to the JBs and generally I am so busy in the fall that I really can't appreciate the final flush. Besides, if only once a year I can have roses whose form and fragrance make my heart sing and that I love above all others, so be it. It is better then not having them at all.

Elizabeth

Featured Answer

hemlady

14 years ago

I live in piedmont NC, near Chapel Hill and I grow several gallicas. I grow them in pots to control the suckering, and they have done very well for me for years. In large pots I have Belle Sans Flatterie, Belle de Crecy, Jenny Duval, Camaieux, and a couple of others whose names I can't recall at the moment. They all have huge buds, and Jenny Duval is opening a few. Denise

Comments (20)

melissa_thefarm
14 years ago
You really need to hear from people in your zone, but remember that the 'South' covers a lot of territory, and central North Carolina is nothing at all like, say, the Mississipi Delta. I know for a fact that Gallicas don't need a lot of harsh cold, because they don't get it with me and they grow and flower fine just the same. Temperatures here rarely fall below 20F. They DO need winter chill--a certain number of hours with temperatures below 45F (I think that's the break point); and I don't know what they'd think of your summer humidity. I too have heard that the Hybrid Gallicas do well in some areas that are too warm for Gallicas.

Melissa
olga_6b
14 years ago
I have 2 friends in NC, who grow gallicas thanks to my enabling and sharing suckers with them. Gallicas grow and bloom happily for them. I think 7b is not that far south. Also, I know, Melva in TX grows them. It is not even necessary that they should have china blood in my experience. I know that for example Tuscany Superb, Rosa Mundi, Duc de Guiche, Belle Sans Flatterie, Belle de Crecy, Charles de Mills, Beau Narcisse and Ipsilante were send by me to NC. All are blooming and growing well in my friends garden.

Olga

Olga
Related Discussions
can anyone recommend a rose to plant in South Florida
Q
Comments (11)
Belinda's Dream really is a great choice. Especially if you want fragrant, perfectly shaped roses. She's the one that got me hooked. It was my first rose here in South Florida (I have since gotten another one) and I now have over 50 roses in my garden. I grow them all in containers though because I don't have garden space in full sun. BD has been a no spray dream and is always full of buds and blooms. Thrips do like her, but her blooms are so full you wont even see the thrip damage when she opens. Another really good choice is Duchess De Brabant. She has smaller less formal flowers but very delicate and she is no fuss. My knock outs have not done that well. They do bloom alot but the flowers are small and not neatly formed with no fragrance so they are just boring to me. Try Quietness. She's also a beauty and easy to grow. I've also had luck with Mr. Lincoln (though it grows gangly, but still blooms even with black spot). Joseph's coat is doing well too this year despite its first two years of being down-right-ugly. About Face is doing superb as well. She's had BS in the past, but seems to have outgrown it. Olympiad and Love rose have also done well for me as well as Gold Medal, perfume delight and All American Beauty. I've also had luck with Huntington Rose and Jubilee Celebration from David Austin and alot of the Kordes roses have done well for me too (the fairy tale series). But they are all in their first season so its hard to tell what will happen. Spraying is a real b*tch, but almost a requirement if you are growing HT roses here. I spray mine but only when absolutely totally necessary (like when i hear there's going to be a week of non stop rain). Otherwise I just let them get black spot (hand pick off the infected leaves to limit the spreading in the summer and do my hard pruning in the fall. Once October comes around you can pretty much get away with not spraying at all until May :) If you grow them in containers they require a little more work. You have to water more often and feed regularly, but its worth the work. You wont have to worry so much about soil conditions, nematodes etc and you can move your roses around so they get the optimal amount of sun during the changing seasons. So it has its pluses and drawbacks. If you want to grow them in the ground, make sure to get them grafted on fortuniana rootstock. That's the only way your roses can survive for more than 6 years in the ground here. Make sure you amend your soil with store bought top soil (miracle grow makes one especially for roses) at the very least. Dr Huey roots will do well too, but they may only live to about 5 years. (most store bought roses are on Dr. Huey) Then again, roses in our climate live much shorter lives since they never go dormant in the winter, so either way they don't have long life spans. Pruning them hard once a year helps them to go somewhat dormant and will help them become bushier healthy plants. Even if we don't have freezes. Good luck!
...See More
how far north do I have to move to grow gallicas?
Q
Comments (14)
here is a link I hope works to MdS...she looks pink but is described somewhere as red. I would like her if she were not red or pink. I do love the vintage site. I have their list of purples in my favorites folder. as for bourbons, I have 2 zephy's and although they are growing like crazy, those who have zephy's felt she might not bloom here. (i'm not wild for her color, I got her cuz she is thornless...another quality I love). stefanb, CdR is on my wish list for sure. the color knocks me out. I looked again at the roses I got from uncommon rose just as they closed and I think 1 is a gallica (la belle sultane) and 1 is a moss (fara shimbo). I also got a chianti on sale at ashdown. so, I have 3 I can experiment with. has anyone measured the temperature difference between below ground and above ground. it wouldnt seem to be drastic would it? michelle Here is a link that might be useful: marchioness de salisbury
...See More
Can shade act as winter chill for Gallicas etc?
Q
Comments (23)
This is an extremely interesting discussion, which I came upon after reading California Melissa's comments about Hybrid Perpetuals in a thread I started and got started thinking about this topic. I want to add my comments about Mediterranean climate as I know it. Our garden is in the northern foothills of the Apennines in northern Italy. Our climate is probably pretty typical of that of a good deal of the country, a little warmer and dryer than in the Po Plain below us, chillier than on the coast. We grow temperate climate fruits, bulbs, and roses without difficulty; but Italian cypresses and pines, for example, thrive here, and olives do well in warmer areas once established. The Mediterranean climate as I know it, without achieving what most Americans would consider serious cold, offers chill hours in abundance. Most years in January and February we have week after week of temperatures in the thirties and low forties, with cold periods in the upper twenties. There have been warm winters in the twelve years I've lived in Italy, when it was possibly to go out in the garden and work comfortably for most of the winter, but I've never known the tulips to fail to bloom, or the plums, pears, and cherries to flower and fruit. A fact I like to quote to U.S. friends is that we live just south of the 45th Parallel, about the same latitude as Bangor, Maine. Many Americans don't realize how far north Europe is, including much of Italy. The climate is different here. We have a hot dry summer, but we also have a long winter and a pronounced spring and autumn, and although temperatures rarely fall much below 20F, winter is plenty chilly, in part because the days are so short and it's humid a good deal of that time. I agree with comments in this thread that the flowering of the once-blooming roses of European probably depends on a complex group of factors, and varies from variety to variety. But I do want to explain what cold is where I live, in an Italian environment of a common type. Melissa
...See More
Can I have gallicas, albas, centifolias or damasks here?
Q
Comments (6)
The number of hours of winter chill, matter with the once blooming old European roses, I live c. 10 miles east of San Francisco, Ca and I think our climate zones may be similar. Temperatures here rarely get below 30 degrees above zero Farenheit, and if so, than at most for a week or so in total, and that every few years, however some of the Alba, Gallica and Hybrid China roses bloom very well here, -de la Grifferaie blooms gloriously for more than a month in spring, and the Apothecary Rose and Alba Semi-Plena have a shorter bloom cycle, but bloom fully. In Oakland, Ca I've grown Celsiana and La Ville de Bruxelles and both are extraordinary roses, for beauty of bloom. La Belle Sultane didn't bloom much for the first two years in my garden but now it is taking off and Luanne, my wonderful neighbor has an older plant that blooms fully and very beautifully. Her plant of 'The Bishop' is the healthiest and most beautiful of the once bloomers in her garden, it produces a bountiful display of red-mauve roses every year. If you want more ideas for Old European roses to grow with borderline winter chill, I suggest that you search the Internet to find out how many hours of winter chill you get each year and compare it with San Jose California and if they are close, then check the website of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, They list all the roses they grow. I've seen these blooming at san jose heritage and would grow them where I live: Belle Isis Nestor Felicite Parmentier de Meaux (also grown at the Berkeley Botanical garden) Mme Legras de St. Germain Belle Amour Konigin von Danemark James Mason (a modern Gallica) Gloire de Guilan although the garden is very hot in summer with temperatures in the 90's and triple digits, with few hours of winter chill, San Josee Heritage Rose Garden have dozens of the older European roses, most of these bloom during the weeks between: mid to late May through June most years. Best Wishes, Luxrosa If your garden has as much winter chill as Sebastopol California, then you might look at the list of roses that vintagegardens.com sells, as all of their mother plants are grown on site in that town.
...See More
windeaux
14 years ago
Altho it's been several years since I visited the Wilson Rose Garden in Wilson, NC, I remember the very healthy plantings there of Rosa gallica 'Offincinalis' and 'Rosa Mundi'. Located east of you, Wilson probably has temps that are consistently higher than those in the Raleigh area. The same two Gallicas are also planted in one of the gardens at Tryon Palace in the far eastern part of the state, but I've not checked recently to see how they are performing there.

Years ago, Pickering sent me 'Rose des Maures' (aka 'Sissinghurst Castle') by mistake. I doubt if this is anyone's favorite Gallica, but it has survived in my hot, humid conditions & performs well in a semi-shaded location.
anntn6b
14 years ago
As suggested above, you probably can grow them successfully.
They grow well for me on my side of the mountains. Do you want to grow a lot of them?
Yes, if you love deep colors.
Yes, if you are patient and forgiving.
Forgiving: a state of mind that will forgive the weather if it gets very hot as the gallicas start to open and you only see three days bloom.

My problem with gallicas and to a lesser extent with centifolias and albas, is that here their early May blooms sometimes coincide with the early May hot weeks. When that happens, very short bloom cycle.

I continue to threaten that I may plant them in some woods with dappled shade, to see if they will give me a longer bloom period there, but first I've got to clear that area of privet hedge and poison ivy.
elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks to all who responded for their encouragement. (Yeah baby, I'm going to be growing Gallicas! Sorry. I'll try to sound more responsible in the rest of the note.)

Melissa- Yes, the South does vary a lot; before NC I lived in South Florida, and that was _nothing_ like here. I'm still learning this place. (I do know that you can't grow lilacs here! But I can grow figs.)

Olga- I love those words, "I think 7b is not that far south." You mentioned some that I particularly want (Tuscany Superb and Charles de Mills along with Belle Isis and Cardinal de Richelieu) so it is good to hear that they are happy down here.

Hemlady (Denise)- I'm in Cary, so if you can do it, I can do it. I wonder if the pots help; I have grown a lot of plants (including roses) in pots, and I've found that you can consider a potted plant as being one-half to one zone cooler than you are.

The Wilson Rose Garden is on my schedule for this weekend (if the weather holds up); I've been there many times but haven't caught the spring bloomers in bloom very often. They've taken a lot of the old roses out (especially the once bloomers); except for the rugosas and polys they look pretty ratty even by June, which helped to make me think that I couldn't grow Gallicas. Of course the problem may be that the once bloomers are almost completely shaded by the trees in the picnic area!

Ann- Gallicas are my sneaky way of having the dark colored roses that I love; dark remontants all fry for me in the summer sun. I SPed my beloved Francis Dubreuil because after spring all I ever saw were crispy flowers and a lot of BS.

For some reason the only patience I have is for the garden; I'm going to put BdC next to Clotilde Soupert - all she gives me sometimes is tissue paper balls but I still love her. I'm a fragrance nut, so a great scent can make me forgive a lot.

Another question for everyone: Generally, how BS free do the Gallicas remain? I'm hoping for leaves, not defoliated sticks. I'm planning to put some of the Gallicas (I've been convinced and am already making placement plans) in the herb garden, so there will be plenty of interest - to me at least - even when there are no roses.

Elizabeth
olga_6b
14 years ago
Elizabeth,
Actually I didn't mention Cardinal de Richelieu, this gallica is VERY BS prone. There are so many healthy gallicas, that I consider it unforgivable. Alice Vena has very deep purple color, but is healthy.
olga
anntn6b
14 years ago
Not a gallica, but try to locate a plant of Cardinal Hume. A repeat bloomer with deep, deep purple blooms (none of this screaming magenta that sellers want to call purple). Mine grows under an oak tree. I don't think it's ever been sprayed.
michaelg
14 years ago
Olga,

More notes on BS resistance and susceptibility of Gallicas would be welcome. Given your tastes and your location, you are uniquely positioned to know.
texaslynn
14 years ago
Well, I am in zone 8b/9a and am trying several: Charles de Mills, Cardinal de Richelieu, Hippolyte, La Belle Sultane and Rosa Mundi. I received most of them as bands from Vintage and a few from RU. They are all doing wonderfully so far (but the heat hasn't kicked in yet). Most of them have had no BS but only some powdery mildew. Several of them have bloomed with very cute small blooms. I have a thought that those may be the only blooms that I ever get :0 but it was great while it lasted :)

Time will tell and if they actually "do" anything here, I will definitely come on here and shout it to the world!

Lynn (of non-Gallica country)
elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author
14 years ago
Olga- That's why I mentioned Cardinal de Richelieu and Belle Isis - because I remembered CdR, at least, getting mixed reviews as far as health. I don't spray, never have. Scratch him. Alice Vena is a wonderful color - a more than acceptable substitute for the Cardinal, but since some classify her as a Hybrid Perpetual I was afraid she would be too spotty. Yes, please, any additional notes on the health of the various Gallicas would be greatly appreciated. I can't grow them all, so want to pick the most healthy.

Ann, I'll keep Cardinal Hume in mind. Thanks.
melva
14 years ago
From my experience...the black spot occurs after they have bloomed..and none of mine defoliate completely.
I have:
Cardinal de Richeleau
Camaxieux
Malton
Charles de Mills
Belle Isis
Ambrose Pare
Duchesse de Buccleugh
Rush Family
Cramsoi des Alpes
Crimson Gallica
Canary Island
Fleur de Pelletier
Allegra
Gallicandy

and a few unknowns
olga_6b
14 years ago
For me the healthy ones (no spots or some spots, butnot too bad)are:
Alice Vena- no BS
Jeny Duval-no BS
Apthecary rose
Rosa Mundi
Duc de Guiche
Belle de Crecy
Tuscany Superb
Ipsilante
The Bishop
Alica
Beau Narcisse
Oeillet Flamand
Conditorum
Tricolore de Flandre
Cahrles de Mills
Belle Isis
Belle Herminie
Gallicandy
Marianne
Rose de la MaÃ®tre-Ãcole

The not so healthy ones:
Gloire de France
Camaeuix (sp?)
Allegra
Anais Segales
Belle Doria
Nouvelle Pivoine
La Belle Sultaine (some years can be in forst group)
Alain Blanchard
Ellen Tofflemire

Complicata is somewhere between two groups.

There are many more in both groups, but I just will stop here :)

Olga
elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks to all who responded; since it is too hot here to mail order anything I can only look at my little Belle de Crecy and plan for next year and talk. Thanks for giving me the chance to learn.

Ann- I forgot to say how much I liked your comment "none of this screaming magenta that sellers want to call purple." There is a lot of wishful thinking out there when it comes to colors - almost as much as with fragrance.

Lynn- I hope they do well for you, but please let us know regardless. This is "zone pushing" from the other side.

Melva- Thanks for the information. What is "Rush Family?" I couldn't find it on HMF - is it a found rose?

Olga- I see now why Michael made the comment he did. Wow! (Perhaps it is best that I can't order right now after seeing that list.)

I hope some of you will post full bush shots when your roses are in bloom.

Elizabeth
melva
14 years ago
'Rush Family Gallica' is a found rose that I got from Uncommon Roses, a few years ago...it has done very well for me...I can send you a sucker in the fall, if you would like.
{{gwi:256022}}
elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks, Melva, I may take you up on that offer if I can find/make additional space for roses. At first, I want to concentrate on the very dark colors, with some very lights to intersperse. Plus, I realized that I need the Apothecary Rose.

I miss The Uncommon Rose... It looks like Pickering has the largest selection of Gallicas (although Vintage has a scary number which are custom root, I don't think I need to go that route yet). But all Pickering's Gallicas are grafted, I think, and I don't have much experience with grafted roses - all my roses but one are own root.
lemecdutex
14 years ago
Elizabeth,

If you're able to get some of the Descanso Hybrid lilacs, they should get enough winter chill where you are to bloom, as they even bloom in Los Angeles, land of palm trees and Bougainvillea. Two that I have personal experience with are Angel White and Scentsation (or do they spell it correctly as Sensation, I can't remember anymore). Also, there are several low-chill lilacs like Miss Kim and others whose names escape me right now.

--Ron
olga_6b
14 years ago
Ron, Sensation (sp?) is a good one. The other one that performs well in my friends garden in zone 8 is Lavender Lady. But Miss Kim is really not a "lilac" if you want a "real thing". It has different leaves, different flowers, most importnatluy different fagrance. It is like offering a peach to person who wants an apple :) Better then no fruit, but..
Olga
elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author
14 years ago
Ron- Thank you so much for the recommendation for the lilacs. I will definitely look into them. My Michigan-born husband thanks you too; we both miss lilacs.

Olga- You are quite correct; Miss Kim is just not right at all. The wrong scent is the worst thing; no one grows a lilac for the beauty of its leaves. I will look for Lavender Lady too.

Back to roses... My copy of Suzanne Verrier's Rosa Gallica arrived today. I want them all! (Amusingly, I sold my copy of the book years ago and had to buy another one.) I have just started reading it; is it a book to be depended on for history and cultural practices?

Elizabeth
lemecdutex
14 years ago
Hi Olga, thanks for giving me a laugh! That's a very perfect description. I knew Miss Kim wasn't like a regular lilac, but to keep up the analogy, if someone's dying of thirst, asking for water, and all you have is peach juice, quite likely they'd be happy with that. ;-)

Lavender Lady is one of the ones I was trying to remember. I think there's a whole series like that one.

--Ron

Can I grow Gallicas in the South? Recommendations please!

hemlady

Comments (20)

melissa_thefarm

olga_6b

Related Discussions

windeaux

anntn6b

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

olga_6b

anntn6b

michaelg

texaslynn

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

melva

olga_6b

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

melva

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

lemecdutex

olga_6b

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

lemecdutex

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

Can I grow Gallicas in the South? Recommendations please!

Comments (20)

Related Discussions

elizabeth_in_ncOriginal Author

elizabeth_in_ncOriginal Author

elizabeth_in_ncOriginal Author

elizabeth_in_ncOriginal Author

elizabeth_in_ncOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author

elizabeth_in_nc
Original Author