I agree with you. Never use more chemicals than you need just because it's easy. If you're going to use chemicals just use the one you need for the specific problem you're having and use that one correctly and responsibly.

Whatever is causing the issue, we, as rose growers are an insignificant, if not totally inconsequential contribution to these problems.

ah yes, the 'we are all such small fry' argument. Ha. In truth, the problems with bees have been noticed for almost a decade but as usual, the powers that be have been particularly slow in either recognising this, making any legislative changes (bought and paid for by their donating chums in Bayer and Monsanto) and have allocated a pitiful amount of funding for research. The french banned imidacloprid several years ago but studies have shown that dead bees contain the residue of up to 27 different pesticides/agroc-chemicals, not to mention the strangely unnatural monocultures which require mass pollination and bee haulage. As yet, I am not aware that there has been a definative cause of CCD and the ongoing success of urban bee-keepers seems to attest to a fatal lack of bio-doversity, compounded with intensive chemical warfare in rural areas, in the ever increasing drive for cheaper food. No easy answers but, RoseTom, without wishing to heckle too much, we ALL bear responsibility, both in our choices of chemical use, our continued consuming power to support chemical overkill and a deep cultural change which is imminent (although it will have to be forced on an generally unwilling public) that we are simply demanding too great a share of the earth's resources - how many pairs of shoes does one need? How many long-haul holidays, how many pairs of sweatshop t-shirts and why are we demanding avocados in january, in England......and so on and on.

You're correct to call it heckling, campanula. I'm not sure anyone on your continent is in a position to talk about "forced on a(n) generally unwilling public" or that "we are simply demanding too great a share of the earth's resources." I think we see the effects of these sentiments all too clearly right now.

Meanwhile, I have to chuckle at all the UK rose books I've purchased that refer to RMV as an "interesting leaf effect" and something that simply "needs an extra shot of fertilizer."

I think my initial point (lost on you, apparently) is that a typical golf course uses more of these chemicals in a week than a typical rose grower might use in the life of their growing experience.

Besides, everything I've read on the bee situation seems to indicate a mite issue - not chemical. Now, maybe if you make the connection that imidacloprid has enhanced the mite population, perhaps - but you didn't. I'm just not one to hit a knee-jerk that every chemical is bad (DDT, for instance).

It is never actually necessary to apply imidocloprid in the home garden.

Pesticides are meant to kill insects. Honeybees are insects. These substances might not kill bees outright but over time they weaken the bees to such a condition that they become easy prey for mites. The Varroa mite is kept in check by a strong colony. Once the balance of the hive is altered by these chemicals, the balance tilts in favor of the mites.

I stand with Michael. Perfect rose foliage isn't a good enough reason to haul out the chemicals. Yes -- lawn ferilizers are also a huge problem (and are associated with multiple myeloma in pet dogs) -- but, really that's not relevant to the question re pesticides on roses.

Jeri

I was not able to open the first link. I assume that it is covering the same research as below.

"Use of imidacloprid - common pesticide - linked to bee colony collapse
April 5, 2012
The likely culprit in sharp worldwide declines in honeybee colonies since 2006 is imidacloprid, one of the most widely used pesticides, according to a new study from Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH).

The authors, led by Alex Lu, associate professor of environmental exposure biology in the Department of Environmental Health, write that the new research provides "convincing evidence" of the link between imidacloprid and the phenomenon known as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), in which adult bees abandon their hives."

"Strikingly, said Lu, it took only low levels of imidacloprid to cause hive collapse�less than what is typically used in crops or in areas where bees forage."

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

It also (Imidicloprid) is marketed as Advantage for fleas, for dogs.

BUT it should be noted that it is a known "trigger" of seizures, in seizure-prone dogs.

I know from personal experience that you don't know your dog is "seizure prone" until it seizures. And once it begins to seizure, it is not a one-time occurrence.

Jeri

Lol, I come back to the forum after a long hiatus thinking about saying hi to one of our very special rosarians when I get a whopper with this thread, lol! Enough to get my honeybee hugging all buzzed out again, hahaha! Not much to say except I admire your bravery, Campanula. I ducked outta here after too many controversies about being a self-admitted absolute and total Bayer-hater, lol! and if I start seeing the name Bayer I start getting ulcers again, lol! especially when every time I go to the garden centers I see truckloads of new Sevin products shipped in, the Ultimate Honey Hive Destroyer...Why in the hell Bayer gets away with bloody murder is beyond me at this point. But lol! I do have to say one thing. Forums are never devoid of controversy no matter where one goes, lol! At the beemasters forum one gets plenty of in-fighting too, haha! Stinging and chasing each other.... I think it best to say is remember everyone to keep putting out the smiles and try not to take things personal. I may hate the product but I still love our fellow rose gardeners and hope that someday they may re-consider what they put into their garden. Every tiny thing we do can make a difference. Even how much we water our lawn can also make a difference in terms of water conservation, etc....So I too am in like mind that we have a part in everything we do :D

Did anyone else see an article, stating that Bayer got around EPA testing, when it released this pesticide? I saw something about it on one of the other forums, but cannot remember which one.

I don't spray any chemicals, but we have a climate that doesn't support a lot of pests and diseases. It's also a short growing season. There are many plants that just will not grow, let alone thrive, in our area. Instead, we focus on the ones that do and have a very happy and stress free garden.

All I can add is that since I have quit using pesticides of any kind some years ago, it took awhile, but am pleased to see all sorts of beneficial insects, bees and butterflies in my yard already, and no sign of aphids and thrips that I used to get; have to say it's worth it to me!!

well hey, Rosetom, lets not bring nationalism into this - I absolutely could not claim europeans have any less culpability in the general smash and grab fest for increasingly scarce resources. We wrote the book and devised the rules for imperial landgrabs and subsequent oppression, after all. There are many ecological issues which are eminently solveable but only if the will is there. In the UK, we are all facing severe water restrictions while the greatest wastage of water occurs because of decades of underinvestment by privatised water companies which is now causing massive leakage throughout the entire mains water system. Not sure whether golf courses are exempt (there are some bizarre exclusions from these restrictions) and indeed, the desire for perfect green acres leaves me feeling fairly incandescent too. Nope, it is going to take a concerted effort from everyone to address these issues and it is never going to happen if we all point the finger at a bigger culprit and feel our crimes against nature are that much less significant.

I am worried about the bees too. The bees exposed to these kinds of chemicals have to send out bees too young just to keep the hives alive. A person on the radio said it was like sending 8 year olds out to work 10 hours on a construction site every day. That was bringing tears to my eyes. The lifespan of these exposed bees is almost 1/3 shorter and bees are not with us very long as it is. Whatever we can do to help them we should do because they help us in ways we could never repay them for.

Campanula - I agree that finger pointing re national identities (or super national) is not usual or useful in this forum - although I was amused to see that you were referred to as "on your continent" - that's a new one. It reminded me of the old story about the headline in an English newspaper - "Fog in the Channel, Continent Cut Off".

Seriously, I think all of us need to keep harping on this issue of pesticides and how amazingly damaging they are to all life on Earth, eventually. Evidently in Canada they have banned their use in gardens - I do not know about golf courses or agriculture - perhaps that is coming. I'll bet that the market reacts with better plants, however. Perhaps that is the answer.

One thing that really bothers me is the number of real newbies who ask about Bayer Three in One on this forum. I get the idea that they have gone to their local nursery or garden store, and have gotten a sales pitch about this from someone who works there. I try to be careful and kind about my responses to those innocent inquiries, suppressing my immediate reaction to scream "WHY would you want to kill all of the bees, butterfiies, & beneficials in your garden, letting loose a plague of pest insects in the future?"

Jackie

Well not all insecticides are bad. There are some 'bad' bugs out there that need to be dealt with. I have 7 month old kitten who may have heartworm. If she does have it, she was infected before I adopted her. Heartworm in cats is hard to detect and there is no cure, just palliative treatment and hopefully the cat survives until the heartworm dies and it doesn't do to much damage. One of the preventatives for heartworm is imidocloprid. While it may not be necessary in the garden, it should not be completely eliminated from use.

Everything in excess is probably a bad thing. Moderation and responsibility are key to good pest management no matter what you use. Which is one reason I hate that 3 in 1 product. If you have a pest, ID it and find the treatment that works most efficiently for that specific pest. If you have a disease, ID it and use the fungicide that works best for that disease. If you need a fertilizer buy just a fertilizer. And in all three of those situations READ the LABEL and FOLLOW the DIRECTIONS CAREFULLY. I can not think of any time I've ever had to use all 3 of those things at the same time! So I can't see buying that stuff and just wasting 2/3 of it. If people would just use the correct product for the situation they have, use it judiciously and porperly, when appropriate we probably would have a lot fewer of these scares and problems.

Interesting article and ongoing discussion regarding this issue.
"Likely causes of CCD remain:
increased losses due to the invasive varroa mite (a pest of honeybees);
new or emerging diseases such as Israeli Acute Paralysis virus and the gut parasite Nosema;
pesticide poisoning through exposure to pesticides applied to crops or for in-hive insect or mite control;
bee management stress;
foraging habitat modification
inadequate forage/poor nutrition and
potential immune-suppressing stress on bees caused by one or a combination of factors identified above."
I thought I had read that even though France has not used this pesticide since 1999, there has been no decrease in CCD.

Here is a link that might be useful: Scienceblogs.com

Don't know about kitties (we still live in a small HW-Free zone, so it don't get much ink here) but for dogs, the usual treatment for Heartworm is IVERMECTIN -- NOT Imidicloprid, which is (I think) a "newer" chemical.

And, FWIW, I do agree that in some cases, chemical intervention IS needed. Because we travel out of our little "island" we DO keep our dogs on Ivermectin. Katie, our youngest, DID when picked up stray, have the initial stages of the microfilaria, but so premature, she didn't have to go through the HORRIBLE treatment.

I just believe, in company with Seil, that chemicals are a blessing NOT to be used where not needed. Perfect rose foliage is a "preference," not a "need," IMHO.

Jeri

The concept of poisoning a garden for pretty flowers increasingly seems like madness to me.

So imidacloprid is on the bad list. What are the better alternatives then? If pyrethrines and it�s derivatives work well enough they are much safer. At least natural pyrethrine breaks down in a few hours and can hardly harm any pollinating insects if sprayed late at night. I don�t know if natural nicotine or other derivatives are less harmful. There�s not that many pesticides to choose from, and many gardeners will spray when they notice their plants are under severe attack. In my climate it is typical to get one or two major cycles of insect larvae and aphids that does noticeable damage if nothing is done. Waiting for the birds that eventually will come to the rescue and help a bit is not an option for everybody, the damage will be too severe. The last few years Thiacloprid has been made available for gardeners, but I doubt it�s any safer for bees. Maybe some of the pesticides should only be allowed on non-flowering crops to allow enough time for the active substance to be broken down when flowering starts, including roses.

yeah, I know Jacqueline - I used to always proclaim myself to be 'european' so it smarts having to endure the behaviour of the latest suspicious, paranoid 'little englanders' in charge of us at the moment (sigh). Truly, nationalism is as much of a curse as religion, politics, tribalism, gender, class and all those other divisive categories which keep us at each other's throats.

Meh.....opened up the forum this morning & read some stuff that truly makes me shake my head. If I were a new rose enthusiast and looking for a good online resource, I might summarily dismiss this forum based on what I just read. Or worse; I might conclude that rose enthusiasts are a bunch of fussy butts with their panties in a wad and not seek out local help, like so many of us often advise. (Good god, they're like that on the forum? What the heck am I to expect if I have to talk to them IN PERSON?)

Seriously though, I've been annoyed more than once, as I'm sure we all have, at some incorrect or far-too-general pronouncements that go unchallenged here. I beg you all to (pretty) please challenge the stated facts & not the person making the statement. Speak up if you disagree with a statement. It's OKAY to have different opinions.

And now I'll get back to the original topic. Before I got rose-crazy, all the places I shopped suggested the All-in-one product. This still happens. Even today, if I go to one of the very large garden centers that have a very good reputation, they will suggest the all-in-one product. I admit that I eavesdrop when other people are asking the staff questions about what to buy.

The problem seems to be an uneducated public and an uneducated sellers. If you don't tell them that you want to NOT kill insects, they will refer you to the all-in-one. If they don't ask the customer what their specific goal is, then the customer doesn't know that they have the option to not kill bugs. And sadly, there are still folks out there who seriously want to obliterate anything with more than 4 legs. I used to be one of those people until just a few years ago, and I thank the KNOWLEDGEABLE people here for opening up my eyes to options I didn't know existed.

If I didn't ask questions, didn't take everything I heard/read as the absolute truth, and didn't seek to find what works for me, I might be mislead into believing that Illinois is too cold/hot/dry/wet for roses, or that I can only grow a certain rose because 1 person saw it at 1 garden they visited (and chose to ignore all the other information to the contrary). Know what I'm saying?

Yes, flaurabunda I think I do. We are given advice east and west, contradictory, and one camp of gardeners up agains others. For the garden center I sometimes think the staff have never grow a single rose at times. I have a feeling the organic gardener is a minority the commercial forces are not willing to either promote or work with.

I used the Bayer product only because it was the only pesticide that contained imidacloprid, which would kill rose midge. (I had a bad infestation). It was recommended as the ONLY treatment for this problem by several different rose societies. Honestly, I could care less about blackspot, aphids, or really anything else. But with rose midge, I had NO blooms. None. I wish I could have found something that did not also have disease control and fertilizer, but I couldn't...Bayer was all I could find.
Usually, the birds in the garden take care of most of the pests, as far as I can tell. Luckily, I did not notice any decrease in bees whatsoever.
I guess Merit might only contain a the imidacloprid, however, I have never seen it for sale here.
Before trying the Bayer product I tried the pyrethrins-however I do not think the spray can get into where the larvae are because it made no difference, still no blooms.
I would not have minded losing some blooms, usually I always do, because of those stupid winter moth worms..but absolutely no blooms on otherwise healthy bushes, in the whole garden, was not something I wanted to risk the next year.
I have been reading that dinotefuran will also kill rose midge, but, I have not read up on that yet.

It's not just a case of doing the garden when needed either, it's a case of only doing the affected (or rather the prone) plants. I have plenty of hover flies and lady birds, however, Celsiana and Ludlow Castle seem to still get absolutely plastered in aphids. I wait until early evening, then I spray the things - just the two plants, maybe once or twice a year and that gives the chance for the good guys to catch up. If I spray for fungus, which is a must for some of the gallicas or the damasks, and the likes of Abe Darby or The Prince or really any of the HPs or Bourbons - I use systhane very occasionally which has only Myclobutanil in it. I certainly don't like to use pesticides very often at all. You can't avoid Myclobutanil even if you tried unless you went to only buying organic food. It is used on grapes for wine, fruit trees - all sorts. I agree that covering a lawn in fertiliser full of herbicides is just stupid - all for the sake of the odd dandelion or thistle, just sig the things out and use NPK lol. I also agree with whoever it was that wrote above that these forums can become over-run with only the people who shout the loudest. They are, to be fair, the people most passionate. I think I can see how you can be passionately anti spray - but nobody is passionately for spray if that makes sense. The problem with that is that people with a different opinion keep quiet and the debate becomes one sided for fear of having your head bitten off. I don't think it is for any gardener to force their views on to another, but rather to put forward a balanced rational reason why we should ease off our reliance on chemicals. For me, as nobody told the rose breeders of the 1800s that they should breed for diesease resistance, I will have to use some fungicides for those roses which I want to keep in a world that isn't really suited to them any more.

Well, SHOOT, Altarama -- That's what we were talking about, wasn't it?

Use a chemical when your back is to the wall, and use it for the minimum time required to do the job thoroughly. I don't know about anyone else, but EYE sure wouldn't climb your frame over that.

I am, however, troubled by regular, weekly spray sessions as a season-long preventive. OK, that's ME. I'm not going to tell you what to do.

What I WILL tell you, though, is that IF you're going to use that stuff, PLEASE wear protective garments when spraying. No kidding. I'd really like you to wear a complete spray suit.
Wear a mask with a filter. And if you start smelling the chemical, your filter is toast. Use a new one. If you can smell it, you're breathing it.
Wear chemical gloves. SERIOUSLY.
If you spill it on your clothes, I hope they were cheap, and you can toss them. If not, at least wash them 3-4 times.

Because that " . . . cide" means it was designed to kill things.
And a lot of older rosarians, who were too tough to bother with that stuff are ... no longer with us.

Jeri

Good advice jeri, I wear a respirator now. And it wasn't because of spraying. 2 years ago, we were using a chipper/shredder on yard waste to make compost. A few days later, I came down with what felt like a bad case of bronchitis. It would not go away. I finally mentioned to the Dr. what I had been doing and she said that I must have inhaled particles into my lungs and they were irritated. A dose of steroids and I was fine. But if I were older and had compromised lungs it could have been serious. I was wearing a dust mask, but it was useless in that case.

About the all in one, I used to use it all the time, I haven't in a few years. But I am going to try it on a few roses that get destroyed by thrips to see if it helps.

I haven't used the spray, just the granules.
I was just reminded of a picture I saw in an old rose book-a man spraying his roses-you could see the mist everywhere-with no protective gear, while smoking a pipe!!

One question.
I dust roses very, very, very rarely.
I use an old rose duster pump.
I still use old, decades, dust left over from my mother and aunt.
It works.
What is different in the old stuff not used now.

What dust are you using?

Jeri

I put all the powder in the duster, it is a large duster, but as I remember it was calle Ortho Rose Dust.

I have other containers I have not used, when I get back there I will see what they say.
I am not sure they are identical, remember this is stuff fromt the seventies at the newest.

If God is good, it is just no longer effective.

Jeri

Oh it works, it works real well, which is why I rarely have to use it.

More...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2012/apr/11/bees-pesticides-decline-colony-collapse

Caldonbeck, thank you for your wisdom and balance. Some of the watchdogs do more harm to the planet than the uninformed chemical addicts through their virulent attitudes. I've been shouted down and ridiclued before, only to find out later that my position was a reasonable one.