Assuming I can get the construction material out (big assumption), is it worth trying to amend and till the soil?

Why do you ask? Do you think you will get good results with construction fill and debris in your yard?

Nonetheless, this is not uncommon in subdivisions. Sadly, I am not surprised when I hear it. When I had my business I wouldn't take such yards, as generally you want to get equipment in there, take it out, and bring in new. Not what I wanted to do.

Spend the money. Learn the lesson. Make a nice yard.

Dan

you avoid the clay bathtub .. by raising the soil .... and working above ...

i have a friend who gardens in the famous OH clay ... who just added beds above it ... i believe he used horse 'nure and good soil ... there was probably more to it ... but ....

i will leave it to others who have done such ..

this does not mean that you need to contain the soil .... no need for railroad ties.. or stone.. or anything else... if you dont want ... just raised beds .... which are better anyway ....

good luck

ken

PS: crying might be a bit overkill.. no one ever said gardening was not work ....

I'm sure you've considered this but whatever you do make sure you don't disturb the grading...and if you do you may need a professional to re-grade.

I had to end up planting some of my plants a little higher than I would have liked as I hit subsoil at ~15" deep.

BTW...isn't the soil frozen? How did you even get 2"?

Mostly I'm crying over the fact that my plans (changed or not for soil type) will take longer to come to fruition since I'm going to need to put most of the effort and money this year into fixing rather than planting.

So Dan....by "spend the money", are you saying to simply put good soil on top and plant in that, or to dig out the construction material and replace with good soil? Now is definitely the time for me to do whatever is going to be best in the longterm-plan to be living here for 20+ years.

Ken...for raised beds....if I don't put something around to contain the soil, won't it just wash away? (No horse manure, alas....phosphorus is forbidden since we're near a lake...)

duh ....

i did start a post on this topic.. what an idiot.. lol ...

if the yard is flat... and the bed properly mulched.. and properly watered .... no .. it wont wash away ...

if its sloped.... there are ways around it...

how about a pic.. to give us a better idea of the yard???

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

d'oh! Maybe the soil was just frozen! It had been warm for a couple of days, but it could still be frozen beneath the surface a ways....I'll hope it's not as rock solid as it felt. And I still need to address the the iron rods...

Ken- no, the yard is definitely not flat - it slopes, which is good because otherwise we would have water in our basement. Although where I want one border is kinda flat-ish...where the soil is the hardest. In fact, we actually had the builder come back and do some of the compaction I'm complaining about now before closing specifically because of flooding issues.

whaas - yes, grading is something I'm definitely keeping in mind.

The soil seemed nice and loose in the lowest point in the yard where I'm thinking I could grow a nice fern-heavy shade border - all the water runs to that area. Maybe I need a raised bed on the high/compacted side of the yard, and I can just plant directly in the soil on the low/uncompacted area. I need to plant some sort of hedge on the high side to divide our property from the neighbor's. I guess a raised bed would open up my choice of plants. Ken - if I build a raised bed without sides....the mulch keeps the soil in place??? How high can you build the bed before you start running into issues?

I'll try to get a picture of the yard this weekend.

You don't know what you have until you start digging. If you find concrete, wire, shingles, your plants won't like it. The best thing to do is take them out. Then you can amend with compost. And mounds are great as long as you rototill in the soil used for the mound into surface, as you'll get a perched water table, which will make roots unhappy. Clay in and of itself is not a bad thing, but compacted clay is misery itself. Must be fixed. This is common. Hopefully you know someone who can run a small tractor.

Dan

I take it the manual rototiller is not gonna do it, then? Fortunately, we do have a very good friend who used to be a landscaper, has lots of equipment, and has offered his services in exchange for conversation and beer, so as long as I figure out if I can use what he has or whether we need to rent something, we can make it work.

So it sounds like the best plan is:
1. soil test (after ground not frozen!)
2. remove construction material (sigh...that'll be fun.)
3. do some serious rototilling and amending
4. re-test soil
5. then make raised beds if desired while tilling into surface to avoid perched water table
6. plant plants chosen for conditions.

The second plan if there is too much construction material to remove is:
1. till top surface and remove nails for grass (grass grows there now, so I assume it can continue to grow, even if it's not the happiest prettiest grass in the world - we just need a play surface.)

2. Build a really BIG raised bed above the construction material so that perched water table is low enough it won't bother plants grown there.

3. till and amend in the uncompacted area. plant apprioriate plants for the soil in that spot.

Does that sound right? Stupid builders....I'll be posting pictures of the poor tree I fear they have killed (it's not dead yet) on another thread...

Just dump topsoil on top and plant in that. Skip the tilling, grooming and amending.

If you have more than an 1/8 acre I'd do as suggested above. Digging wide and keeping up with compost/mulch will be a much more economoical way to go.

Unless you plan on having this lush forest of hard to grow plants then I might chose otherwise.

I'll second (third?) that suggestion - just bring in some decent quality soil and plant in that. It doesn't have to be the same depth throughout. You can give it some contour and dimension by berming (mounding or unconstructed raised beds) specific areas. If you allow it to assume a natural angle of repose, there's minimal chance of it 'washing away'. The University of Minnesota's Sustainable Urban Landscape site has an excellent synopsis on why and how to construct berms......sounds like your soil issues are just made for them :-)

btw, you can use some of your 'construction fill' as the base of the berms as the article shows or you can elect to build with all imported soil. It's your choice -- either way will work as long as there is sufficient soil depth for initial root anchorage. And imported soil can get expensive.

There's not much of a risk of creating a perched water table or bathtub effect if you do this over a generous area. Raised or elevated planting areas are one of the easiest solutions to heavy clay or poorly draining soils. And no need to attempt to meld the two soils -- that will happen itself over time. Eventually, the activity of plant roots, soil organisms, even irrigation or rainwater, will break up the clay and what's on top slowly migrates down.

Here is a link that might be useful: SULIS: How to build berms

There's not much of a risk of creating a perched water table ...if you do this over a generous area.

I used to fill out tree failure reports back in CA. One of the boxes on the checklist is 'mound planting'. You'd be surprised.

My mode is do it right the first time, and all my clients appreciated that.

Cr*ppy suburban new construction yards - esp at the end of a long bulldozer run - have compaction and things in the way of roots and differential settling and compaction and drainage. You must rototill with at least an 11hp rear-tine tiller to break compaction and why not dump some compost while you're at it in case you change in 5 years. You'd hate to add something in 5 years and have to work around established plantings to improve the soil.

If you find wire and rebar and chunks of concrete and rock and stuff, that is all in the way of tree roots and shrub roots and some should come out, as much as you have patience for. Do it right the first time, esp if you have access to power equipment and a friend as an operator.

Dan

The dubious practice of amending soil areas destined for permanent landscape installations has been
discussed in this column on other occasions. To summarize briefly, the problem with this practice is that
within 10 years (conservatively) the organic amendment will have decomposed; one is then left with the
original soil, which will have subsided and compacted during this time. You can see evidence of this
practice by looking at older residential lawns; the lawns slope away from sidewalks and driveways and
are inches below grade of surrounding surfaces

Here is a link that might be useful: The Myth of Soil Amendments, Part III

FWIW, the compaction is probable the entire area of you subdivision. Especially if they had to "fill" area's to bring them up to required grades. Sometimes they cut down for streets (and drainage out of the construction area) and pile the soil to the sides and pack it down. But pretty much everything is usually compacted deliberately, usually to a 90 or 95% proctor. This is done to prevent settling and foundation issues which is what the contractors are worried about. If you are lucky it's the top several inches and you could tile down to soil that is in better condition. You probable need to dig a whole a couple feet deep at least to see what is down there. My own yard is complex with multiple layers. IF is say 6-8" deep compaction, consider yourself lucky and start tilling it, otherwise additional top soil and smart cultural practices are about all you can do. Also fill your whole with water a couple times and see how well it drains. Grass can be one of your best friends with this problem as well. I have used our lawn to dig into the soil and make it more plant friendly, but it won't happen overnight. Basically get the grass going, provide all the nutrients it needs, and water it just before it shuts down for lack of water in the soil it's growing on. The root will work to get into the compacted soil. Also mulch all your clippings, and be careful of what chemical treatment you might use. Roundup (glycophophate) is fine as it binds to the soil and breakdown to water, CO2 and phosphorus quickly. Also use fertilizers like Milorganite (but NO Ironite), as they will help to improve the soil biology. With luck and smarts your soil will be much better after even one growing season, and will continue to improve from there. Mine certainly has. As far as the construction waste, your probable don't really want to know. Just know that you are unlikely to find all of it, and that the construction workers rather bury (hide) it, than clean it up. Areas with concrete waste buried, use elemental sulfur as it will be converted to acid by soil bacteria, and this acid will work to dissolve and remove the concrete waste.

Arktrees

the organic amendment will have decomposed; one is then left with the original soil,

Ah. Decomposition and bacterial/fungal action won't make any more OM and you are stuck with cr*ppy fill soil and overburden forever. Who knew?

Fortunately, we do have a very good friend who used to be a landscaper, has lots of equipment, and has offered his services in exchange for conversation and beer, so as long as I figure out if I can use what he has or whether we need to rent something, we can make it work.

You are way ahead of the game. You can't really do anything until the ground thaws anyway except dream about where you want beds and plants and bulbs.

When the ground thaws, dig some test holes, do some soil tests to find out what you have to work with, and go from there. It is likely your parcel has been scraped of all native soil and you are left with what the bulldozer left behind. Hopefully you are not at the end of its run and the guys didn't bury all their waste in the backyard. But almost certainly they drove all their stuff all over the yard - Bobcat, tractor, lift, scaffolding, etc. You have some work to do, and the bigbox industry and rental industry counts on this situation to keep going.

Good luck. I've done lots of these, not a big deal and you'll get through it. Start with your clean slate and take out what junk you can - there will be more closer to the house. Amend as required by the soil test, rototill, and start marking where stuff goes. I always cut radial trenches out from where the trees get planted as well, which points to the importance of having a plan to work off of (like your friend said).

Dan

Ok, so it sounds like the first thing I need to do is exploratory digging and build my plan based on those results. Actually, the neighbors say ours was a wooded lot prior to our house being built - it was just a single builder who bought a lot, split it in two, and built two houses where there used to be a shack and a lot of trees. So hopefully he left a lot of native soil amidst all the mess.

BTW I've heard that if you just put down top soil and plant grass in it, every few years you need to add more top soil (right on top of the grass - it will grow through) because the compaction will make the lawn keep getting lower....no matter what I do, I assume I will need to maintain it by adding good soil and/or organic matter every so often...although I guess around extablished plants you cant exactly re-till without upsetting them..

Now the question....tilling the soil around existing trees...we have one sickly oak and two young maples (and neighboring trees right on the other side ofthe fence.) Can I till over the roots, or is that an extremely bad idea? It's a small yard so there will be roots wherever I go (I know I'll have to investigate the issue of the maples and how their expanding roots will affect things. Grass grows over their roots now)

check out the link for what can be done on a slope ... NOTHING stops this guy ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

If you till through the tree roots the trees probably won't be too happy about it. What, exactly would happen cannot be predicted.

This could be yet another thread where more work and bother than is necessary is being chosen, even insisted upon.

I think the tiller idea is the best.
Don't waste time renting a DIY tiller, you need a tractor mounted tiller for this.
You can also have some topsoil hauled in and leveled by tractor. That will be your lawn surface.

If you find serious amounts of debris buried in the ground then you should contact the builder and demand that they pay for the costs of removal (the cost of your project). If you check your local laws you might just find that it's illegal to bury construction debris and if so, builders know this.

I don't have a problem with berms but berms but I do believe that if you bring in softer gardening soils and mound it on top of compacted clay, you will have issues with shallow rooted plants and drainage-related problems.

If you're new to town or not sure where to start, service magic dot com or similar contractor request sites can get you competitive bids.

if you bring in softer gardening soils and mound it on top of compacted clay, you will have issues with shallow rooted plants and drainage-related problems.

No matter what kind of soil you have, you want to rototill the imported into the native, then finish the mound. The OP's friend knows this already.

Can I till over the roots, or is that an extremely bad idea?

Only if you don't care about the trees. You'll want to set a tree protection zone (TPZ) around the dripline where equipment doesn't go.

BTW, you never know in such a construction site whether the cheapest bid for grading Billy Bob went all a-drivin' the tractor and didn't just bury the cr*p jes' t' make a little more money from a-savin' on the dump fees, if'n you get my drift.

Likely also drove all over the tree roots and compacted the soil around them, or changed the grade and piled soil up around the trunks. There are people that can reduce such compaction with an air spade or water spade, but it'll cost you.

Dan

I think some of the decision about tilling may have to be made afteer the oak leafs out. A couple of arborists are not hopeful about it. We hose not to have it taken down this year- just had it seriously pruned, but based on how well it looks like it's coming back in he spring ( and how far I get in my discussions w my Hubby about how it's not good to have a sickly tree that close to the house), it may be coming down in the spring.....hmmm....homemade mulch! The 2 maples were give. A thumbs up by the arborists- thyre further away. I like that they house birds, but I fear the dreaded maple-roots-sucking-everything-dry, so I'll have to reasses their continued existence with more research (how else would I survive the dreary winter wihout a gardening project to think about)

so I can power till beyond the drip lines? What about manual tilling closer to the tree- does that still caus potential problems?

It sounds like the general concensus is that tilling is better than berms on top of compacted soil BUT might not be worth the enormous effort. I'll probably wind up doing a combo of things based on realities of time, money, and the soil in the particular area. Maybe go wih cheaper perennials or annuals in berms over ground not worth tilling, but till bg regions around where I want to plant a large, long lived shrub or tree...

I dunno about a consensus....and in addition to the unnecessary expense, I just don't think tilling is advisable in this situation. Per the OP, the yard is small and filled with roots - tilling is inevitably going to damage some, maybe a bunch. A lot of excavation will do the same. And tilling is just not needed. There is no requirement for tilling the soil under a berm - I've built or supervised the construction of a fair number in my day and never tilled before adding soil. If the berm is designed correctly, there is little concern about shallowly rooted plants - you plant the larger stuff towards the apex of the berm, where it has its greatest depth. And plant roots will and DO penetrate clay, eventually breaking and loosening even a hard layer underneath. Because of the trees already on the property, using berms in selected areas makes more sense than elevating the soil level throughout the yard, also potentially injuring the trees.

Lastly, improving drainage conditions is one of the primary reasons berms or raised/mounded planting areas are recommended. The texture of imported soil encourages free drainage, as does the elevation, shape and slope of the mound/berm. Any water percolating through the mounded bed drains laterally underneath the raised soil, if not fully absorbed into the existing underlying soil base.

Maybe because I've done this so many times in the past with great success, this is just a no-brainer to me.

A nice thing about a berm for that side of my yard is it would help define the property line before the plants are big enough to do that on their own...gardengal, how deep do you make the berm for something like a viburnum?

smord,
I'm confused as to the real conditions. What I wrote about doing was based upon the area have been graded clear, but you still have trees and stumps, then more info is needed. You prob still need some test wholes IMHO. If you can take and post some pictures of the area in question, in and around the the test wholes (assuming you dig them, as well as around and at the base of the existing trees. All these things can be very instructive has to what has been done and therefore the best course of action. I suspect the builder moved material onto your lot and buried the existing ground, and possible other damage to their root system which could easily kill the existing trees.

JMHO
Arktrees

It sounds like the general concensus is that tilling is better than berms on top of compacted soil BUT might not be worth the enormous effort.

Sounds like, rather, a hearing aid is needed. Nonetheless,

But I'm with arktrees. There is too much conflicting information now and confusing information given by the OP. Based upon the confusing and seemingly conflicting information given, this thread is of dubious utility. IMHO. And I had a landscaping business back in the day. If I had such conflicting info, I'd walk away to save myself grief and money.

[/interest]

Dan

Will put up some pics tomorrow. Dan-remember, I'm not making some sweeping decision based on this thread alone. It's only January and I've found everyones advice enormously helpful- it has sent me off to read about all kinds of things I never would have thought to learn about.

All this information and advice- no matter how conflicting- not only informs my decision- it's fun! Learning about landscaping and allthe conflicting theories is a great way to spend the dreary winter months.

Thanks to everyone who has posted to this thread! You've really brightened my January!

There's never going to be a better opportunity to correct this problem. I think you're look at less than $1300 for the whole project to till, haul in soil and regrade if this is a quarter acre we're talking about.

Maybe $1300 if he/she is from the south...or I guess if they do all labor and get free equip. rentals.

Something no one has mentioned is plenty of trees thrive in poor soil areas naturally. Been a decade since I've been to Jersey but I'm sure something grows in the exposed rock cuts along the highway in New Jersey.

IF you have the energy and time by all means go after some of the construction debris. You should call your state "call before you dig" folks and make sure you know where your underground utilities are. Would had to put cable out to the whole neighborhood or hit a gas main, although they "should" be fairly deep.

Good luck. I've been spoiled with my old house and good soil. Many of my friends in new subdivisions are in a situation similar to yours. (Of course the time they spend trying to get grass to grow is balanced by the time I spend fixing plumbing lol)

Review the link I attached - the depth of the berm is dependent on the area it covers, rather than determined by what plants you'd like to grow on it. If the berm is intended for a small area, then the maximum soil depth for planting will not be as generous as it would with with a larger berm with a greater depth.

About 20 years ago, I constructed a large berm (about 750sf) in a portion of my backyard to correct a slope, help establish a privacy barrier and provide a planting area under difficult soil conditions. The maximum depth was 16-18" but it was not uniform - other interior portions of the berm were not as deep. I planted the berm with a variety of trees and large shrubs and filled it in with smaller plants. Everything established rapidly and grew well - the berm plantings thrived in every respect. Today, this is a lushly full privacy screen with mature plantings......I've never lost a single plant. I recently planned and supervised the construction of a series of berms for a large design project I was doing - the smallest was around 150 sf, the largest about 600. Logically, the largest plants (intended mature size) were planted on the larger berms.

Berm planting tip: do not plant trees or your signature plant on the exact apex of the berm - it will look awkward (ok - dumb!!). Instead, plant just off to the side. IME, the larger the berm you can manage to fit in, the better it will look - think generously :-)

I finally figured out how to disply pics in the forum. As you can see, it's a pretty small yard, and I'm pretty sure berms (thanks for the link, gardengal-I finally rea throughit) would require permits an anger the neighbors since whose at fault for where the water drain is such a big issue in my neighborhood. So were back to digging an tilling.

Right side of yard from back deck. Out property ends where the wood fence turns a corner- the deck stairway you see is the neighbors. The construction material is near the fence. That corner in the wood fence is a major focal point when sitting on the deck or looking out the window- it's also where the construction material is.
{{gwi:326776}}

another view of middle/right of yard
{{gwi:326777}}

Middle of the yard- those 2 thin trunks are maples.
{{gwi:326778}}

left side of the yard from back deck. Low part of property- soil is soft and always damp. Planning a moist shade garden with ferns here to distract from the neighbors chainlink fence.
{{gwi:326780}}

Berms do not require permits :-) And if well-designed and placed, they can help to correct poor drainage by redirecting surface water, in much the same way a rain garden does. Combine several with a dry stream bed and you have the equivalent of an above-grade rain garden.

I wouldn't summarily rule them out with investigating further. And I might consider hiring a professional designer experienced with berms/rain gardens to provide some on-site consultation advice.

It's hard to say for certain, but it looks to me that fill material was brought in and buried the roots of your trees (just inside the fence) that were on the side of your house on the tree. The soil is likely compacted, and there is probable not allot you can do for them. They MIGHT survive if they have not been disturbed on the other side of the fence for long enough period, plus it will depend upon what species and how forgiving they are to such things. Otherwise tilling or terracing might be done. But if you till you may be subject to erosion problems depending upon the slope. How much fall in elevation and how far is your house from the fence? I also see either a drain or a manhole you will have to be mindful of as well. It's also important that we know which, and for that matter your likely to have a concrete pipe of some sort underground connected to it. First guess would be that it runs parallel to the fence between the fence and your house. If that is the case it will affect what you should consider planting if anything as it will be within and easement. Lots of things to consider and as before, more info is needed.

Arktrees

The drain you see is in the neighbors yard. The only thing on the survey is an underground drain catch basin (I forget what it's called- gutters and water from around the foundation goes to it and the water dissapates into the soil) - but it's under an area where we would only plant grass anyway, so I think were ok as far as that goes. I don't think the slope is steep enough for major erosion problems, and the grass certainly helps.