Here's a few comments based upon your post.

A ZTR is designed to mow lawns. It is not designed to do the work of a Bush Hog. Using it this way will shorten its life. Used five foot Bush Hogs can be bought really cheap if you don't already have one.

I prefer air cooled engines. Why? Because they are simpler. No rad, no water pump. Both items are very expensive parts. There is no advantage to having a water-cooled engine in a ZTR. Air-cooled engines have been around for eons and they work just fine. Now, if you had a cab and wanted a heater in that cab for winter work, then that would be different.

Speed. Most ZTR's have faster ground speed than any garden tractor does. You can only go so fast on any unsprung implement with small diameter tires before it becomes dangerous to operate. I wouldn't be using ground speed as a criteria in my buying decision.

Most, if not all ZTR's have hydrostatic drives in them and these provide infinite speed control from dead stopped to wide open. So don't worry about "creeper" speed. A hydro will crawl along as slow as you want it to.
Kubota makes excellent products but you should also investigate the ZTR's that John Deere sells.

If this is the last mower you intend to buy, then go with a diesel. The diesel has much higher torque than the gas engine and it's torque that counts, not horsepower. As for noise, you should be wearing ear protection regardless of engine choice.

Your ag tractor is probably diesel and you are getting rid of the Scott's piece of junk. If you don't have a stationary fuel tank, then round up a used residential fuel oil tank from someone who is changing their furnace to natural gas. Get your local fuel oil delivery guy to fill it with coloured diesel so that you have 200 gallons of fuel on hand for both machines.

It's cheaper than going to the gas station and you don't have to risk spilling stinky fuel in your vehicle.

You need to take the decision making process very slow. Go to a Kubota, John Deere, Ferris, Walker and some other dealers. Get on these machines to see how they feel. If you have warm weather where you are, then try them out on the grass. If the dealer doesn't have grass, then get him to bring it to your place so you can test drive it there.

This is a major purchase and the last thing you want is buyer's regret a few months from now. By the sound of things, you should be looking at a 60 inch deck at minimum but make sure that this machine will get inbetween any obstructions and into any tight blind areas you have on the property. After all, this unit MUST cut every square inch of grass for you. Buying a six foot deck and finding you need to drag out the push mower would be a bad move.

Walk your property and use a tape measure.

The last important thing is the dealer. Make sure that he will give you the sort of after-sales support that you expect. NO machine is perfect. Things break and things wear out. Having a dealer who has an excellent parts department and shop is very important. You don't buy a machine to have it sit idle due to some stupid part that the dealer should have and is now slow to obtain for you.

The diesel inline 3 cyl. is good mower engine most have a 7/8 belt from engine to deck because of more power of diesel. When buy mower like you looking for make sure the deck is hydraulic adjusted and flip up to maintenance the blades. Engine maintenace be same but maybe need more fuel filters than you would gas filters. I never met a person that had Kubota diesel zt that didn't like it. Ride i have gel-ride seat on my mower its on Dixie Chopper 28 hp EFI 60 inch mower Deck I bought because go to mulching by lowering door over discharge from seat the thing so fast when turn around you drive into grass that cut in air still. White hydraulic drive system works real quick and great on hillsides along with bar thread on tires. I had a mower with wide lawn tread tire they pick up more grass than bar thread tire. On mowers you looking at look at the maxium acres per hour should be 6 acres are more for good cut time. Demio is best thing you can do on mower size you looking for Dam question seat and noises if don't have exspires driving ztr the one you buy should drive on side of hillside are dam one that you got to go up and down hill is not one your looking for its kind simple you control forward speed with lowest wheel an steer with upper one some ztr don't have the inching speed in there hyraulics are the control lever not long travel in slow speed. I haven't found cmmercial ztr mower priced at 10,000 that was bad one but have saw some with weak deck things like weak deck top frame bent by spindles blades cut low oneside the skuf wheel tare out frame and frame bent into blades.

There are at least a dozen high quality ZTR mower brands
out there, and several offer diesels if U want, all of
which would do the job for you, check them all out...
Perhaps though an even more important consideration is the dealers in your area.. Having a good dealer behind the product you buy, with good parts and service support is as important as brand itself.. Its very noticeable too in different areas of the country, the brands that the good dealers sell, are the popular mowers in those areas.. So
first look around for the good dealers in your area, the
select the brand...

Try a Scag.

I agree with gorper99, try a Scag. I'd have a very hard time cost justifying a diesel unless you'll be using it every day.

I would look carefully at anyone of the following below: If you mowing more than 3-4 hours per time, then I would consider liquid cool, but chances are you will only be on the machine for 1-hour and I would go gas and save the money. A high quality 60" commercial mower, gas engine will set you back around $9000.

ExMark
Scag
Hustler
John Deere
Kubota
Walker
Ferris
Dixie Chopper
Grasshopper

The new Scag Freedom Z is under $5000.00.Turf Tiger I think is around $7000.00.

castoff said: "A ZTR is designed to mow lawns. It is not designed to do the work of a Bush Hog."
Yes, we also have a 15 ft. batwing, and a 7 ft bushhog, along with the finishing mower. The batwing does an incredible job for our pastures, it is pulled with our 70+ hp John Deere.
As I do all the lawnmowing around the house, and a lot of the smaller bushhogging jobs, and fenceline maintenance, the final O.K. on our new lawnmower or zt is my call. What I really need is a very good quality riding lawn tractor. Our current one is a Scotts 20 hp, 50 inch deck. It is slow, hard to adjust the deck, and very hard to grease and oil. My husband built me a platform that I pull up on every time I finish mowing, I rinse off the undercarriage so the grass never dries underneath. This platform has worked well and that is also how we grease the lawnmower.
johndeere2210 said: "chances are you will only be on the machine for 1-hour."
Yes, maybe two hours maximum, once or twice a week. The slow part is the back of our dam. I just measured it, the back slope is maybe 25-30 feet deep(going from the flat top of the dam to the bottom), then a dip, then up 6 ft, to a gravel driveway. The top of the dam is about 9 ft. wide. All this is maybe 200 feet long.I only mow the top two passes with the lawn mower(I scrunch on the upward side of the mower, so it will not slip), as it is lighter, then the rest I mow with the Massey Ferguson 38 hp tractor and finishing mower. If I use the tractor on the top two vertical passes, the tractor tires slide too much and leave lovely ruts/scrapes in the dirt/grass. And our front lawn has a number of landscaping trees that I must scoot around, and these all seem to be on an inclined area.
Are there any excellent quality riding lawn mowers, not zt? I really do not need a zt(tho I do like their speed and quality), and mowing around the lake with a zt could be a bit dangerous.
Thanks so much for any input. We called numerous dealers today and are still weighing all options.

Nancy

Maybe it's just me but I fail to understand why mowing around your lake would be more dangerous on a ZT than it would be on a GT. If the land slopes steeply to the water, then either unit could slide you into difficulty.

Case, John Deere, New Holland, Kubota and Massey are all names that should be familiar to you as they make large agricultural machinery. These are the people who understand what it takes to make quality products becausd they have been doing it for a long, long time.

You should be looking at which of the above makes are at dealers near you so that you can see and try them out. If all you want to do with this machine is cut grass, then I suggest that you still consider a ZTR. You will spend far less time in the seat and that will free you up to do other chores.

That Scag is a mighty fine machine; Tiger Cub or the bigger Turf Tiger - IMO the decks on these are as solid as they come. The Scag's compare to the Kubota Z21 and Z25 except with heavier decks, but then again the Bota's have fold down ROPS, where its a option on the Scag's. Sounds like you may have diesel fuel around for the bigger tractors - if so you know the extra critical PM required for diesel's, if not go gas (just my opinion).
One other Zturn not mentioned is the Country Clipper (http://www.countryclipper.com/) it's a little less money than the Scag's and Bota's but appears to be equivalant in construction. You can also get models with Joystick control (to me, very intuitive steering).
The guys knocking Zturns on side hills have not been on one in a while - Just as easy to drop a tractor in the lake as a Z anymore. They came along way baby.

ssteve said: "The guys knocking Zturns on side hills have not been on one in a while - Just as easy to drop a tractor in the lake as a Z anymore."
Actually, the area next to the lake is very flat at most places, the only small place that it is not is at the dam and I maneuver that just fine with the riding lawn mower. I probably feel safer around the water with the riding lawn mower than with the tractor, because of the low center-of-gravity and I cannot go fast even if I wanted to. One aspect of the zero turns that I like(and also am a tad afraid of)is their speed, and if you make an error, you definitely have made an error. As the operating mechanisms(steering)are so different, I know there is a long learning curve to feel secure on one, and if we get a zero turn, I plan on taking my time to feel comfortable with it. I am very comfortable driving our tractors, and their implements and know where I can and cannot take them. We really do not have a lot of lawn but our Scotts, most of the time, just doesn't seem to have the hp to get it up even a small hill, and then when I use the tractor the tread tears it up. The main reason we have not purchased a zt yet is that everyone tells us the zero turns are not good with hills and can turn over with their high center-of-gravity. Yet, what we call an incline someone may say is nothing to worry about. I guess the only way to truly know is to go to a dealer and try one out.
If you get on too steep an area, are you given warning that you should not be driving there and you can adjust?

Nancy

My daughter is 37. Last spring, she and her husband bought a 25 acre horse/hobby farm that was a turn-key operation. It has two fenced paddocks that are five plus acres each plus there is lawns around the house, the barn, either side of the very long driveway plus substantial road frontage.

The previous owners had a JD GY with a 48" deck plus a JD CUT with a five foot Bush Hog. They opened the paddocks by making one pass on the GT next to the fences and then the Bush Hog on the CUT was used to mow the balance. The GT handled all the other areas. According to them, it took four hours on the GT to do this work.

I convinced my daughter that a ZT was the way to go and they bought a JD with a 60" deck powered by a Kawi gas engine. I mowed with it and it took me a bit over two hours to do the work that the GT took four hours to do. That was the first time I ever operated a ZTR. I also took it into their ditches and across the slope of the hills on either side of the outdoor dressage arena. I also drove it up those hills and down those hills. At no time did I ever sense that the machine was the slightest bit unstable.

Now, as for learning curve...... I spent ten minutes talkkng to my daughter about the controls of this ZT before having her start the machine. I then told her to drive the unit down the driveway at quarter throttle so she could get the feel of how the two levers worked and what happened when she pulled or pushed them. After about ten minutes of that, it was time for her to start cutting some grass.

I told her that the engine speed had to be at wide open throttle in order for the deck to work at peak efficiency and that she would have to slow down her input into the two levers that controlled direction, speed and steering. She started cutting grass in an area that had no obstructions to deal with.

As she became more comfortable with operating the tractor and negotiating the turns, it wasn't long before her ground speed began to increase. Within a half hour, she was scooting along at top speed. She then went to an area near the house that has lots of obstructions. No problem. She just kept her ground speed at a level that she felt comfortable with.

By the end of the season, she was cutting grass as if she had been on that machine for years. Her initial learning curve was about two hours to put herself into the "comfort zone". From that point on, every hour on the machine just took her deeper into that zone.

As a child, she did mow grass with my Case garden tractor so she did have that much experience going in. Aside from that, she was an avid dirt biker and go-karter.

After teaching her to run the ZT, their next acquisition was a little Ford 4 WD CUT with a loader. It annoyed the hell out of my son-in-law that she learned so quickly to drive these units. Last summer, I took one of my road graders and my son's L-70 Volvo 2 1/2 yard rubber-tired loader to her farm and built a dressage arena and a round-pen area for her.

During that work, I taught her to operate the Volvo. Her husband came home from his business while we were preparing a temporary haul road to bring dirt and eventually sand in for the two areas. You should have seen his jaw drop when he saw her walk up into the cab of the Volvo, fire it up and go get bucketfull after bucketfull of some junk material to temporarily fill the ditch in out at the street. It was priceless.

We didn't let him run the Volvo for about two weeks.

One of her neighbours came over because he needed a huge rock moved. He owns a NH Boomer CUT with 45 hp but this rock was almost as big as his tractor. The neighbour thought that it would be me that would be coming but to his shock and amazement, it was my daughter who drove up his driveway, scooped up the rock and dropped it where he wanted it.

Moral of the story.. Women can run machinery of any size or type just as well as any man can. Don't sell yourself short. If you can run all that farm equipment, it won't take you any time at all to master the ZT. Caution and patience are the two key words. You could drive a Ferrari if the opportunity arose but your brain would keep you from exceeding 100 mph until you felt confident to do so.

Go put your a$$ in the seat of a ZTR and take it for a drive. In fifteen minutes, you will wonder what you were thinking about when it comes to the issue of learning curve.

castoff said: " Women can run machinery of any size or type just as well as any man can. Don't sell yourself short."
I don't. One thing that has saved my hide a few times was when I got myself in a somewhat precarious situation, I knew enough to stop immediately, turn off the ignition, breathe, and walkaway to get someone to help me(my husband has also done this, so I do not feel badly).
Okay, you've given me a pep talk, now it is time to try out this zt. BTW, the learning curve you mentioned sounds less than I had anticipated. Guess it does help having driven other machinery.

Nancy

Nancy try several brands ZT's although they handle similar, the differences are great, kind of like the difference between your 70+ hp deere and the scotts ;-). Well maybe not that big of difference.

If you have pond at the bottom of a slope, you MUST be EXTREMELY careful! People die every year from roll overs into water. Not trying to scare you but I dont think you have been told the whole truth.
ZTR's are terrible on slopes, especially when theres any dampness. The tires that come on these things are hopeless but ztrs are just not good going down hill. I had to put on bar or chevron tyres to help with traction.
They/most are fine going across a slope as the C of G is lower than a small tractor type machine and they are hard to roll. Problems usually start once they slide. They hit things and then flip. Unlike a tractor, your locked into the seat buy the control arms, you have little to no chance of jumping in time.
They are fine going across and turning up hill, but turning down (say down around a tree/obstacle for eg) is or can be a big mistake and a heart pumper.

Now, I dont know how steep your talking but generally, on only a slight slope, ztrs are fine. Its when it gets to 15+deg that problems start.

A few pics of your slope and size of mow area would help with advice!

Any machine equipped with turf tires will have issues on slopes with wet grass. People slip and fall on wet grass.

Turf tires are designed to do minimal damage to lawns. As such, they just don't grip as well as tires with a more agressive tread design. I don't disagree with the caution outlined in your post but as I understand it, the OP isn't having any difficulty in mowing this area with her Scott's lawn tractor. Therefore, if that narrow machine can traverse this area and not slide, then a wider ZTR should not have any issues in that regard.

Cutting wet grass is a bad move for a number of reasons and it's not something that I would suggest.

The new John Deere's look really nice.

castoff said "the OP isn't having any difficulty in mowing this area with her Scott's lawn tractor.'
Yes, exactly. I would be mowing the areas I am currently mowing with the Scotts riding mower. Some places are not really steep but definitely inclined. At times this Scotts, 20 hp & 50 inch deck, cannot make it up a slight incline, the wheels just spin. I am ready for a "real" lawn mower. I don't know why I have been so hesitant about these zero turns, I feel perfectly comfortable driving our 38 hp Masssey Ferguson over the same areas. Thanks to castoffs pep-talk, I am champing at the bit for some test-rides.

Nancy

Castoff, You are correct about the turf tires but ztrs are notoriously dangerous on slopes and I think Nancy should be told that.
Like I said, there generally fine going across a slope but as soon as you turn down hill, they WILL loose traction and I dont care what anyone says otherwise!
I use one of the best hill side machines out there and its still dangerous and looses traction ALL the time, with Chevron bar tires no less. It was a killer with Turf Savers and MultiTrac's.

It really depends on the slope anyway. If its just gentle with few obstacles, there shouldnt be a problem. As I said, once it gets say 15' or so is when problems start but attemptable if theres nothing at the bottom to hit or fall into. Like in the pic.
Steep slopes should be mowed side to side, from bottom to top so to avoid turning down hill but in the pic, the property fell away on 2 sides and down to the road had a flattish area so able to regain control before the road.

LT's have better traction going down hill than ztrs. But easier to roll while transversing. Better weight distribution, swivel front axle (keeps 4 wheels on the ground) and still have steering. Also easy to jump off if it all goes wrong.
Ztr have Rigid frames so let wheels lift off the ground over bumps, absolutely no brakes or steering when in a slide and are held in buy the levers so practically impossible to get out of in an emergency. It all happens so fast you have no time to respond!

Check out the link at the bottom and while its exaggerated a bit, it does show a couple of machines (Scag and GreatDane) slipping and sliding!

{{gwi:315544}}

Here is a link that might be useful: ZTR Slip

For the record Nancy, Im not trying to push you away from ztrs. They are great fun to use, will last you a long time and cut your mowing time.

I just want to make you aware that you have to be extremely careful using these things in certain situations (you mentioned slope and water. a bad mix) and to say otherwise is negligent. (no offense Castoff)

I would suggest to get a couple of machines out to your place and demo them. I would also suggest you let the dealer mow those sloping areas so you can see what its like.

What brand machines are in your area?

To mickhippy: Thank you for posting that picture. Most of my inclines are not that long, or as steep. If I had that hill with that length grass, I would bushhog it. Can the zero-turns really handle grass that long? Looks as tho this should have been mowed at least a week or two earlier.
Our 15 ft bushhog(batwing) has mulching blades, this bushhog does a very neat job. Do we have an option with blades for the zero-turns?
Locally(within 2 hr. drive) we have JD, Ferris, Scag and others.

Nancy

Nancy, they can handle grass that long just fine as long as you dont push it too hard, cut it down in stages and its very dry and let it do its thing. I have cut much, much longer than that with it. See pics. I wouldnt do it too often though! Your correct, it should of been mowed 2 weeks earlier. It was on a monthly cut at the time and was at the start on the season. Went to fortnightly after that.

There are options with blades that others here could tell you more about. Decks have to be simply modified with plates and baffles for mulching. Mulching can drain the engine though so have to slow some. I really dont know that much about them other than what I read.

Sounds like you have some very good brands there. Scag are generally noted for there strength and great cut. Deere have a great cut and I rarely hear bad about them except for the diesel with rear discharge deck but you needn't worry about that. I hear Ferris have a great ride but thats all I hear.

Basically, any commercial machine will work for you except some are better than others on slopes. The bigger Toros I have been told are not great on slopes for example.

Only go for diesel if cutting over 10 acres, twice a week. They really are only for full on commercial work although there are a few smaller diesel out the. Grasshopper for example and I think Dixon have one too.
Petrol machines will work fine for you as a home owner doing 2, 3 hours or more a week. Will last you for ever if maintained properly.

Go speak to the dealers and see who looks after you best. Which one is most willing to let you demo (cutting) the machine. While these machines a tough, sh!t happens and you will need them sooner or later.

Thought you might like these pics...
This is the after of that last photo.
{{gwi:315545}}

This was the first job I did with this machine 700 working hours ago... Some of this stuff was 5 or 6' high. I haven't cut quite this long again since.
Before,
{{gwi:315546}}

After,
{{gwi:315547}}

Good Before and After pictures. I never would have thought a zero-turn could have done that.

Is that a Scag Tiger Cub or the Turf Tiger less the ROPS, and the orange looks a little more yellow, maybe faded?
Anyhow I've be wanting the Tiger Cub for a couple of yrs. now for a 3 1/2 to 4 acre patch that I mow, kinda of got sidelined looking at the Country Clipper last summer. If things go my way I will have one before the summer is over this year.

Nancy, you'd be supprized what they can do. That was done in under an hour. 1/4 acre block. It did take 3 or 4 runs over it to get it looking like that. Ive attached another after pic.
From what I hear, they are babied over there in the US. Over here, if you dont do stuff like that occasionally, you wont survive in the business. Its not stuff you do every day.Its like you get a call and usually the first mow is over grown (usually not as bad as that!) and then its cool from then on. At the time of the pic, we were in the biggest drought in history so needed the work. It was very dry and not that taxing on the machine. These days I would tell them to slash/bush hog it first.
Ive attached another pic of what I normally do. This place is 80% slope meaning Im not talking out my bum when I wanted to make you aware of the problems or dangers with slope mowing. The pic dont give justice to how steep it is. I slide mowing around those trees all the time. There are areas not in the pic that are extremely steep and I have almost crashed a few times doing it.

Steve, its a Hustler SuperZ 28efi/60" deck. See pic!

Another after pic
{{gwi:315548}}

The long hill...
{{gwi:315549}}

mickhippy,
The reason why ZTR's have traction problems in OZ is because the force of gravity is less due to your island being upside down on this planet.

Here in the northern hemisphere, we don't have that problem because we're right-side up.

Suggest you look at the new Scag Freedom Z.Excellent machine and under $5000.00.

Castoff, its all prospective mate!
I reckon we're the right way up and you lot are the backward, inside out and upside down Northern Hemispherians!

Who started it that North was up anyway? lol

Just look at any globe of the earth. North is always "UP". Everyone says "I'm heading dwon south." Or they say, "Let's go up north."

One has to wonder why you would even question this. Maybe it's the Foster's or maybe it's because the blood is constantly rushing to your head due to be being upside down all the time. LOL

When was the first globe or world map made? How the hell would they know which way is up?
Just because it was drawn like that, dont make it correct! Just every Tom, D!ck and Harry got on the band wagon and spread there fowl lies!

For the record, we dont drink Fosters. We export it to America so you dont have to drink your own cr@ppy beer! Same as you lot exporting Bud and a few others! lol

Get yourself a 6 pack of Coopers Pale Ale! Now thats a beer!
To get the right effect, you must drink it while standing on your head so you know what its like to be the right way up! After a 6 pack, it really wont matter what the globe looks like! lol

Hi Mick,just got back from oz, good to know a queenslander likes SA beer! Sparkling goes down well too. Heard of little creatures from WA,even better.
Great pics of your hustler. I have just put some more agric/turf type tyres on my super Z, as its quite wet here in the uk, and they have made a huge diffrence.

Hi Builder, long time no chat!
Hope you had a good trip. Where'd you get to?

Yeah, Ive had Little Creatures and Red Coopers. There all fine drops but Little Creatures can be hard to find up here.

The Ag tyres do make a difference dont they! Just have to be careful on the turns on lightly grassed areas etc. I wouldnt go back to Turf Sliders, I mean Savers! haaa
Got any pics of the stuff you mow and or your SZ in action?

Hi,will sort some pics out.
Do need to be careful with ag tyres on turns,but they also grip more after the turn and on hills so skid less.Compromise at this time of year. Last week we had 10 inches of snow, now its 12 deg.

Pics are good! Waiting! lol

If you have a steep terrain to mow one should check out the Gizmow it is designed and engineered to mow hillsides and ditches. The machine does this by controlling our front caster wheels like a car and attaching them to the rear hydros. Also it is the only zero turn lawnmower with a steering wheel. If you would like further information you can find it at www.gizmow.com or www.dedistributing.com

Sincerely,
Eric Benning

Here is a link that might be useful: D&E Distributing

BOBCAT!

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.bobcatturf.com/