IF the valve was sticking open, I wouldn't expect it to restart.
It sounds more like a fuel supply issue to me.

PS- A way to keep valves from sticking open during storage is-
After shutting off the engine, SLOWLY pull the starter rope until you feel compression. This means the valves are closed. You can also do this to determine if the valve(s) are stuck open. No compression = stuck valve.

As an aside, change the oil with some good DETERGENT oil.

It would'nt hurt to re-seat both of the valves either.You can buy the tool at NAPA for $5 bucks, plus a tube of reseating compound.Its a wooden rod with 1 suction cup at each end.You just apply the compund around the valve seat and roll the rod back and forth between your hands,with the valve being closed of course.
Now,the proper procedure is to remove the valve spring before doing this,to release the tension off the valve.But I've had a sticky intake valve on my kids mini-bike and this worked just fine,without removing the valve/spring.That was 2 years ago,it still runs fine.

Heres a similar product to NAPA's,but much more expensive.

Here is a link that might be useful: valve reseat rool

Bill,

The engine would not restart until I could get the intake valve to move on its own. Then it will only run 15 seconds until it dies. Thanks for the valve tip upon storage!

lonewolfmichigan,

Thanks for the mytoolstore.com link. Here comes my downfall to small engine repair, how can I remove the valve? Can I just grab and lift the valve out? I did not try that.

I never thought of spinning the valve with a suction cup attached to a wooden dowel or handle. I did not know they would spin by running the wooden handle w/suction cup between your hands like your provided link indicates. I will check out NAPA this week for the cheaper $5 tool. Since the valve is sticking open, I donÂt think seating is the main problem. I will apply the compound as directed and give that a try this week.

As a side note: I just tried to get this engine running again a few minutes ago. I pulled the head again, PB Blasted the valve, got it working on its own, started the engine, it ran 15 seconds then died.

Then I held my hand over the carb air intake, it would run as long as I gave it a gulp of air about every 2 seconds. I ran it about 45 seconds this way twice. It died when I finally removed my hand from the carb air intake. I was in the process of trying the ATF suggestion as noted above. (one thing to note here, the first time I tried this after the very first PB Blaster process, it would pop the choke slide fully closed. The choke does not close on its own now?) Does this mean anything?

I just broke the pull start rope, so I will replace that this week.

Keep the tips coming, I have made this a quest now..lol

I have used Marvel Mystery Oil to clean varnish off of valve stems. If you have the head off, turn the engine until the valve opens, then squirt some Mystery Oil on the valve stem and let it soak in the valve guide for a while. Then replace the head and start it up. You can also squirt some of the oil into the carburator intake with the engine running. It will smoke a lot and try to stall out. Just before it stalls, turn off the engine and let it sit for a while. By then, the oil will have covered the valve stems, and the disolving of the the varnish will begin. You can also pour an ounce or two in the gas tank to keep the valve stems lubricated. I am assuming the valves are sticking based on what you say. Good Luck. Charles Ranheim

If the valve is sticking, do it right and pull the valves out, clean the stems properly and replace.

While you are at it, check clearances, especially intake. Briggs intake valves will generally lose clearance over time. Specs are .005 - .007 for intake and .009 - .011 for exhaust. Clearance is measured with piston 1/4" past TDC on the power stroke.

You don't want too much clearance as this can affect compression release. However, if intake is too close, or actually raises valve off the seat, engine will be hard starting and idle poorly. When worse it may not run at all.

Whoa-hold on thar!!! Does the engine stay running with the gas cap removed? Did you even try that?
When you put things away for winter storage, those little bugs try to find a nice little hole to lay their eggs, for the next years supply of leetle buglets to be hatched. And, when you go to start it up in spring. you will get the same 15 second run, and a shut-off condition. Especially annoying is the fact you used it all last summer! Those engines don't sit and brood all winter, because you haven't visited or used them all winter! Valves do stick, but rarely. And don't burn in winter storage!
Naw, its those little mud dauber bugs, or just leetle bugs, that lay an egg, or retire in the gas cap breather hole, that give you the 15 second run/ shut-down condition you have described!
HTH: Rustyj

It doesn't cost anything to check for a plugged gas cap vent, but I doubt that's the problem.
IF it ran a few minutes before it shut off, a clogged vent would be the first thing to look at IMO. 15 seconds, I'm very doubtful.

Definitely do NOT put valve grinding paste on the valve/
seat the way described earlier, some of the paste will be let in your engine and quickly damage it.
It sounds like your current problem is fuel related,
and you need to remove the tank/carb, then remove the
carb from the top of the tank. You will need new gaskets,
the one between the tank and carb, and the one between the carb and engine. You will also need a fuel pump diaphram
that goes under the cover on the side with 4 screws near the muffler. You will need to remove as much of the rust from the tank as possible, also, there is a little cup
directly under the carb that gets rusted up, and if it is
rusted will give to troubles as well. It gets pinholes in it, and will not hold fuel. I have fixed this with a layer of jb weld in the bottom of the cup.
Post your engine's model numbers so we know what you have. I doubt the fuel cap has anything to do with it,
as those old caps were not much, and the paper gasket in the cap had plenty of holes in them.
Post your engine's model numbers and we will give you
the part numbers you will need to get.

Fish

Well guys, I have not had a chance to work on the engine since my last post here. We got a cold spell that has settled in here locally. ItÂs been freezing outside..lol It looks like it will lift later this week! I will try your tips out then.

cranheim, thanks for the Marvel Mystery Oil tip. I will give that a try as well. That stuff also works good to flush water out of ATV engines after accidentally submerging in rivers and such.

ggoyeneche, does it take special tools to get the valve & spring out? I donÂt have much more then a small socket and wrench set as far as tools go at the moment. I can check the clearances though. I do have the feelers. When you say ¼" past top dead center, do you mean when the piston starts back down, measure ¼" down from the top of the cylinder to the top of the piston? How do you adjust these valves? Special tool required?

rustyj14, after I realized the first time that I had no spark, I purchased a new spark plug, air filter and gas cap. I made a second trip to the store to get the points once I realized the new plug was not the spark problem. The old gas cap was hard to get off and on. I wire brushed the rust from the gas cap threads on the tank when I had it off cleaning the rust out of the inside. The new gas cap screwed on like a warm knife threw butter. I did not try to run the engine without the cap though. I will give that a try as well.

This must be my engines model # 130202 0135-01 76092407

This number is stamped on the flywheel / pull start cover. I would appreciate part numbers for the carburetor items and valve assembly. Approx. prices would be great too. I donÂt think a carb rebuild would be that hard, pulling the valves may be though.

RECAP: Every time I remove the head, the intake valve was stuck open. I have done this 3 to 4 times now. You can spin the crank and the intake valve will not close on its own until you work it with a little oil. Only then will it open and close on its own while spinning the crank shaft. The valve has been stuck open every time I have pulled the head from previously freeing the valve with oil. (I hope that makes sense.) I will try working yet more oil into the valve. So now IÂve got about $12 in this old engine + my time. It would be great to get it running for another $20 or less I am learning a lot about small engines though.

Keep the advice coming!

You can download an IPL at the link below to get your part#s. Some may have been superseded by a newer #???

I would access the valves through the valve cover. You can get to the stems much better to spray them with your "solvent".

Removing them takes a special tool (valve spring compressor), but I've fudged them in and out.

If the valve lash is-
Too small, you grind the end of the valve stem to increase. (Gotta be careful here)
Too large, you basically have to seat the valve deeper.

IF you are going to reseat the valves, SET the lash LAST.
Also examine the valves for any warpage etc. FIRST.

Here is a link that might be useful: IPL

So after my last post earlier today from my desk at work, I got the bug to work on this engine again cold outside or not. My patience ( or hatred of cold weather ) was rewarded today. My intake valve is no longer sticking! It rises and falls smoothly even with the engine hot. Over the long Easter weekend, I pulled the spark plug and liberally sprayed PB Blaster into the spark plug hole once per day. Then pulled the pull start to work the oil into the valve. (this was after freeing the valve by hand from pulling the head multiple times as noted above, but leaving the coil wire off the plug for fear of heat lock once again)

I pulled the cord, it started right up on the first pull ran for about 30 seconds then died. I noticed it would only run while being primed with gas. I filled a small squirt bottle with gas and nipple fed the fuel into the carb air intake. It would run great as long as I squeezed a bit of fuel into the carb. I ran it for a few minutes this way to heat the block and double check the intake valve. The valve now moves on its own enough (hot or not) to stay running great. Double checked this with a flash light while peering through the spark plug hole and pulling the starter rope.

I have pulled the gas tank again. I will pull the carb and replace all gaskets, o-rings, etc. that I can find.

I plan on taking the gas tank to a radiator shop for flushing and curing. A co-worker stated a radiator shop could seal the existing rust in the tank from flaking off in the future and clogging the screens in the carb pickups. Well see about that oneÂ.

bill_kapaun, Thanks for the parts list!!! I will buy the carb gaskets, etc. and clean / rebuild the carb while itÂs off the tank. That parts list will definitely come in handy chasing these older parts.

The valve clearance adjustment on this engine seems to be out of my league. I may have tackled it if there were bolt & nut adjustments to adjust the clearance, but grinding and praying is a bit much for my current skills with small engines. If I can fix my next problem of fuel pick up and it runs ok, I will leave the valve clearances be for now.

Thanks for every ones help so far! I am even closer now to getting this thing to run. It seems like you jump one hurdle only to jump another one..lol I now have great spark, good intake air, but not enough fuelÂerrr I will report back after I get the carb and tank back on.

This is a fun learning experience. Any one enjoying my marathon thread posts..lol Sorry for being so long, I just want to express what I am going through to get the best advice possible...

Before you get carried away just yet, check for a cracked carb diaphragm PN 394. It's the equivalent to your fuel pump. The part will be in the carb kit.

Looking at your engine no's it looks like a late 1976 engine, so maybe your tiller is really a 77? Think how much more it might be worth! :-)

I brought the gas tank and carb to work with me today. I dropped the tank off at a local radiator / air conditioner shop. The shop stated that they could steam the tank for a day or so, flush with acid and then etch the inside walls of the tank. Once this was complete they will apply an epoxy type resin to coat the inner walls and create a new bladder inside the tank. This will prevent any future rust from clogging the carb pick-up screens, etc. The shop was busy so it will be a week until they get it finished. The shop guy insured me he had done quite a few tanks like this in the past few years and no one has had any problems. The resin wonÂt get dissolved by the gas. At only $20 it seemed like a bargain considering a new tank is $50.

Bill, I took your advice and held off on totally rebuilding the carb. I thoroughly cleaned the carb and replaced the diaphragm and spring a few minutes ago. The old diaphragm appeared to be fine. It came off in one piece and did not have any visible tears or cracks. It may be like a set of points, they may still look ok, but not work at all. Well seeÂ

I think the rusty tank kept clogging the pick-up screens and did not allow good fuel flow. I did clean the tank and carb once already, but when I took the carb off again last night, the pick-up screens were once again heavily coated with rust particles about the size of sand.

I will report back next week when I get the gas tank back and reinstall everythingÂ

Sounds like doing the tank is a good idea. $20 to get somebody to do anything sounds pretty decent.
If the diaphragm didn't have any tears, it may still have been good?? Flexibility might be an issue tho-
I'd also examine/replace the breather tube grommets. PN 11 & 529.
If they leak, the crankcase "pulses" won't be transfered to the diaphragm, thus weak or no pumpy.

Vandtbear,I had the 2 gas tanks internally coated on my 1976 Coachmen Motorhome 6 years ago and have had absolutely no problems with rust or clogged fuel filters since then.Before that,I was always having a hard time keeping it running sometimes and it only cost $80.00 for both tanks,with me removing and re-installing them myself.
Thats a great $$$$ saving idea you co-worker gave you.I'll bet you'll have this tiller running great soon.I'm enjoying reading your progress.
Lone

I may be going out on a limb here, but I think your problem is fuel related...............................................................................................

But I am usually wrong,

Fish

Bill, I forgot to mention that I did replace PN 529 after I pulled the carb the first time. It cracked when I squeezed it during removal. I did a visual inspection while squeezing with my fingers on PN 11 and it appeared to be in good shape. After I get everything reinstalled and if it doesnÂt run decent, that will be the next thing I will replace. That PN 11 grommet is easy to get at even with the gas tank back on. Would the use of small nylon zip ties help to ensure these grommets seal better? Or would the zip ties only shorten the life of the grommet due to the pressure of tightening them up?

Lone, your reassurance of the tank coating is great to hear. It will be nice not having to pull and clean the carb on a regular basis.

Fish, your earlier post was right on with problem #3 on my engine. There is a fuel issue. I think IÂm on the right track in that regard. Your post was helpful. I also failed to mention that I had been using fresh gas in this engine. No stale, sat all winter in a can stuff.

I do use sea-foam in my gas when storing my lawn and garden equipment for the winter. My lawn tractor, weed eater, chain saw and rear tine tiller all fired right up nicely this spring. Sea-foam seems to be good stuff. I will run that in this engine all summer to ensure the internals get a cleaning.

"Would the use of small nylon zip ties help to ensure these grommets seal better? Or would the zip ties only shorten the life of the grommet due to the pressure of tightening them up?"
Probably
Maybe, but if it wasn't sealing, what have you got to lose?

Not sure, but I think Fish was being "tongue in cheek"????

Depends on whose/which cheek..................

As long as you didn't do the valve paste idea, I am fine
though.

Fish

Fish, I did not use any valve paste. Just good old PB Blaster / penetrating oil got the valve freed.

I'm the one who suggested the valve reseat,and yes just going through the procedure without the proper precautions was a bad idea.The 3.5 B&S engine I did this to was removed from the mini bike and on my bench.The engine's valve cover was removed and the engine was laying on its side,with the valve cover opening pointing down towards the floor.The valves/springs/valve keepers were thoroughly sprayed with cleaner to remove -most- grit from the compound before standing the engine upright and reassembling.It still fires right up today and has never burned oil or smoked.A professional definitely would'nt do it this way but I'm just a backyard mechanic and have tinkered on many of the older model B&S engines without any major problems through the years.The only reason I ever junked any B&S engine was because of rod knock or burning oil.Theres so many of them out there whole or for parts that it is'nt worth the trouble/expense of rebuilding the whole engine,in my experiences.Besides 2 stroke weedeaters, I've never bought a new piece of 4 stroke gas powered lawn equipment.People throw perfectly good machines in the trash or sell them for dirt cheap when they won't start.As long as its in time,has good spark,compression,and getting fuel properly,the machine will start and then fine tune it with your carb adjustments or rebuild the carb if needed.
Older Tecumseh engines can be a pain in the butt with the finicky float bowl carbs but B&S vertical 0r horizontal shaft engines are easier to repair and more dependable,IMHO.
Oh well,I don't mean to rant and I gave bad advice to ya Vandtbear.That grit from the compound could've ruined your engine.
Hope that old tiller runs great for ya when your finished.

Lone

Yes that grit is some mean stuff, thanks for the post lonewolf, a tiny smear of that paste on an engine part could quickly destroy the finest and largest of engines,
not to give anyone any ideas.....................

Like checking the oil on an ex-wives Toyota, which you just paid off..............................
Being nice and checking the oil that 1 last time.............................................................

But I digress..................................................................................................................................................................

Fish

Just an update. My tank is still not yet finished. It is sitting at the shop on a bench right where I left it. It did appear that they cleaned most of the rust out though. The inside felt fairly smooth to the touch. I have a feeling my $20 find may turn out to be a waste of time if the guy won't seal the darn tank... He has had it for two weeks now. I'm giving him another day then I will look for a kit and try it myself.

Then I'll stop and take a breath! :-)

lol.. Bill quit holding your breath.

I got my tank back last week. The shop guy did not want to charge me for his work. He apologized for the amount of time he had the tank. I paid him anyway. Heck he provided the materials and did have some time in it. He's an honest shooter.

Now while trying to clean the gunk out of the carb mounting holes, I broke one of the carb mounting screws..lol I thought I could just run the screw in and out a time or two, to open the holes back up. I was wrong..lol I twisted the head clean off. I need to buy new screws along with a tap and die set to clean the holes.

I will get this thing reassembled this weekend.

..on a side note, my garden is finished and everything I planted is now up :-)

My 31 year old tiller is roaring like a lion once again. I reassembled everything last night.

The darn thing runs like a top! It did rev out a bit high for my taste, so a throttle cable adjustment will be in order tonight.

I just wanted to thank everyone for their tips!

I will try to get a short clip of the old brute up on photobucket to let everyone see what I had to work with. It's not a looker, but it sure functions far better than all of the front tine tillers on the market today.

My life is complete!:-)

Well,Congratulations Vandtbear1!
That 31 year old 5hp B&S tiller will probrably last another 3 decades if you continue to maintain it and gradually learn to fix it yourself when it needs a repair.As you said,they don't make 'em like that anymore.They are fairly simple engineered,very fixable at home and were made to last.
You won't find cheap rivets,or plastic on these old machines,thats for sure.

Lone

This old thread lives on...

I did a spring check on my lawn and garden power equipment last night. The old brute, now 32 years in youth, started up in a couple of pulls.

It seemed to run great all the way to wide open.

I did store my equipment over the winter with the valves closed per bill's storage tip.

It did make a very loud squealing sound that came and went a few times. Kind of like a slipping belt sound. When it made the sound, it was constant for 3 to 5 seconds each time.

Could this just be something as simple as the pull start housing rubbing on the fly wheel? Or is a bearing in the block starting to fail?

I had an old tiller that made a similar noise shortly before it died.
The upper bearing had gotten so bad the flywheel started rubbing the coil. This was a VERY tired engine! Severe blue smoke for 20-30 minutes before it would foul the plug.

Glad to see your still here bill.

No smoke of any kind coming from mine, yet that is. I was afraid it may be a bearing.

I did not notice any play in the flywheel when I changed the points last spring. I only ran it about an hour last year after getting it running. Then only very light use weeding my walk rows.

Starter clutch bushing dry=makes screeeching noise.

techdave, can this be fixed by removing the blower / pull start housing and applying a few drops of oil to the crankshaft end?

Wow this thread is perfect! I have an identical tiller with the same issues. I got the valve unstuck and then couldn't get it to stay running.

Thanks to the suggestions, I pulled the carb and the diaphram was shot. Unfortunately the gas tank was too. It has a ton of rust in it. I ordered replacement parts and plan on putting it back together tonight.

Everyone's input sure made this easier. Thanks for the help.

Long live the '76 Wizard!!!!

Long live this old thread...

There are a bunch of helpful people on this forum. It's a good resource for all kinds of things.

My old tiller is still running strong!

My screeching issue from '08 was in fact the starter clutch bushing.

I'm sure you will get your ole brute running after you get the carb and tank put back on.

Your right it runs solid, although I had experienced intermittent spark as well so I updated the coil.

Should be good for another 20 years.

Now on to fixing the chainsaw.... It is just as old....