Do you fill the filter before installing it?

I have seen this "apparent overfull" many times. I attribute it to the fact that it takes a substantial amount of time for oil to drain back to the sump from all the interior surfaces of the engine after the engine is stopped. Explained, it would be like this. You should ideally drain the oil while the engine is hot (or very warm), but even if you do that, chances are you don't let the oil drain into the catch pan for 24 hours or longer before re-installing the plug and pouring in the new oil. To the contrary, most of us only let the oil drain (if you use that method) for a few minutes at most, before plugging and pouring in new oil. The catch is: even though MOST of the oil volume of the engine readily drains back quickly when the engine stops, there is still a quantity of oil clinging to all the interior parts, and lying in a thin layer on parts that are horizontal, that will take days or weeks to return to the sump. This is where your "oil gain" is coming from. The good news is: "Don't worry, you are not harming anything". My opinion is this: The better the oil (in clinging and film strength), the more pronounced will be the observed effect of increasing the oil level (after a drain and fill of engine oil has been done). With that premise in mind, I would say the oil you have chosen has excellent "clingability" in that you see nearly a 1/4" more oil returning to the sump after the engine has sat for a day or two following the service date. In regard to the comment about your carburetor having "an electrical shutoff valve". The electrical solenoid valve you mention is there to stop "after fire" or muffler pop when the key switch is turned off. This valve shuts off fuel to the main jet in the carb but does not stop the flow of fuel through the pilot jet. Hence, if the fuel tank is higher than the carburetor and the float needle valve fails to seal shut, you can still end up with a crankcase full of gasoline unless you have an inline cutoff valve (and use it every time you park the machine).

I agree with Mownie's explanation of incomplete oil drain. I always drain my oil hot, slightly tip my tractor to the side of the oil drain, then drain for an hour or so. Even with that procedure, my engine takes slightly less than the recommended amount of oil.

-Deerslayer

A match!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but, be prepared for the results. (just JOKING, just JOKING)))) I also agree manufacture recommendations are just that recommends it may take this amount if you get every last drop out, which IMO is near impossible. I refill to the bottom of the XXXXXXXX start it up to circulate the oil, Then top it off when it settles.

And, last week, i checked the engine oil in my lawn tractors, and the oil was still clinging to the dip-stick and way higher than the recommended full mark, which is caused by running the engine. I hadn't run it since fall storage day. After wiping the stick and checking it again--it was to the full mark.
This is how folks get blown engines! They pull the stick out-the oil is way up above "Full" so they think its full, not re-sticking it again to get the true reading!
BUT!!
If the float in the carb is not stopping the flow of fuel with the float, and you don't have a fuel shut-off valve installed in the fuel line, the fuel will/can seep into the engine from the carb, making a false reading on the stick! This is why you should always have a fuel shut-off valve in the gas line. And, also why one of my engines went "BANG" suddenly!
Some times you can't smell gas in the oil, so don't rely on that test! And, that fuel shutoff solenoid on the float bowl is to prevent backfires!

"This valve shuts off fuel to the main jet in the carb but does not stop the flow of fuel through the pilot jet. Hence, if the fuel tank is higher than the carburetor and the float needle valve fails to seal shut, you can still end up with a crankcase full of gasoline unless you have an inline cutoff valve (and use it every time you park the machine)."

I agree.

Also, I change my oil right after finishing mowing, while the engine is good and hot, letting it drain until just an occasional drop appears. I fill to nearly full and do final oil check/fill after 15 - 20 minutes.

I very much doubt that there will be noticeable run down after that time, certainly not 1/4" on the dip stick. I recheck the oil before I use the mower each time anyway.

Walt Conner

"Do you fill the filter before installing it"?
The filter mounts on the side of the engine, so I have to screw it on empty.

"You should ideally drain the oil while the engine is hot (or very warm), but even if you do that, chances are you don't let the oil drain into the catch pan for 24 hours or longer before re-installing the plug and pouring in the new oil".
I always warm up the engine before draining the oil. I tilt the tractor and let it drain for several minutes, until it is down to a slow drip (not 24 hrs).

"They pull the stick out-the oil is way up above "Full" so they think its full, not re-sticking it again to get the true reading"
I always pull the stick, wipe it, then check the level again. As I said before, I do fill it with almost the complete two quarts of oil, even though the specs call for 1.8 quarts with a filter. It would seem like the new oil I am pouring in, is getting hung up somewhere, so it only comes up the the full mark initially, then goes back into the sump after standing several days.
When I get a chance, I will try disconnecting the fuel line from the engine to see if any gasoline drains from the tank. By the way, I also have a Cub Cadet with a Kohler 301 engine that has the fuel tank right over the engine. Whenever the carburator float sticks in that engine, the gasoline drips out of the air filter. That engine has a fuel shutoff right under the tank. Thanks for all your comments. Charles Ranheim

Are you checking the oil with the dipstick screwed in or just resting it on top of the dipstick tube? Are you checking it the same way right after filling and then after several days?

I'd guess that by checking it by just resting it on top of the tube and then while fully screwed in there would be a 1/4" or more difference.

"Are you checking the oil with the dipstick screwed in or just resting it on top of the dipstick tube"?
I always check the level with the cap just resting on the top of the dipstick tube.
I measured the distance from the floor to the top of the fuel tank, and compared it to the distance from the floor to the point the fuel line goes into the fuel pump. The fuel pump connection was about 2" higher than the top of the rear mounted fuel tank. I then disconnected the hose from the pump to see if any fuel ran out. Nothing came out until I lowered it several inches. Based on all of that, it appears there is no gravity feed of fuel to the carburator. The only way it could get there is if there were some pressure in the tank, or a vacuum coming from the fuel pump (with the engine off). I suppose there is a possibility heat from the transmission, which is under the fuel tank, could cause some pressure in the tank. However, the last time it happened, I had not run the tractor to generate heat from the transmission. I just started the engine to make sure there were no leaks from the oil filter. From now on, I will probably just pour in the 1.8 quarts of oil on the change per the engine spec, instead of just under the full two quarts to make it fill to the full mark. I just don't understand how, when I fill the engine with fresh oil right after installing a new dry filter, and fill it to the full mark on the dipstick, it ends up going above the dipstick after running it for a while and letting it stand for several days. While I have no answer for what happened, I at least wanted to report what I observed to this point in time. This is not the first time I observed this happening. Thanks for your interest. Charles Ranheim

I simply "sniff" the oil.Gasoline does not smell like oil..In most of my pasrked engines,the oil "climbs" up the stick,until I clean off the oil and insert stick to get a true readingIn the past,when using the oil dipstick,U.S. built engines,the thing was screwed in,and foriegn built was just rested on the opening.Then there is the B/S Vanguard.U.S. engine built in Japan.At the very,very,very,very last resort,read the owners manual to see what it says you should do.tbk.

I prefer the taste test. If there is gas in the oil, it sort of tastes like maple syrup. If not, it just tastes like extra non-virgin olive oil, or as Rachel Ray would say "ENVOO". I say it tastes like CRAP.

Hi Charles. You wrote:

"The filter mounts on the side of the engine, so I have to screw it on empty."

That isn't true. If you pour oil into the filter to just below the threads (all at once, don't keep topping it off), the oil will absorb in the filter leaving very little free oil to pour out, wait 3 or 4 minutes before installing it. Tip it and spin it on in a smooth motion and you won't lose a drop.

I don't think 1/4" is anything to worry about. If the level kept rising you certainly would have the gas in oil problem, but it does't sound like this is happening. Also, when you drained your oil you'd notice the gas smell and thin oil if it was an ongoing problem.

Dave 01,
I never tried what you suggested. After removing the old filter, I take great pains to clean up any oil that spilled on the side of the engine or frame. I do this so it does not collect dust later on. If any oil did spill our using your procedure, I would still have a dust problem. I don't think the initial startup with oil in the filter once a year would do any harm. I only start it at low idle.
I am not sure I like the idea of tasting the oil to see if it contains gasoline. It is my understanding used oil contains carcinogens that can be absorbed through the skin by merely touching it. It would probably be absorbed through your tongue and taste buds very well. I think I will stick with the "Sniff" test. Thanks to all for your interest. Charles Ranheim

I was certain that wheely boy was joking, now I wonder. Remember this, the carcinogenic compounds found in the oil are likely there because of combustion "blow-by" (gases that "blow-by" the piston rings). Blow-by accounts for a mere fraction of the total combustion gases produced (most go right out the exhaust). Knowing that you are breathing some of the same compounds into your lungs when you use the tractor makes you feel very good, right?

Hi Charles, one more suggestion. When removing the old filter, take a small plastic bag (grocery store shopping bags work well). Start to loosen the filter, just to break it free. Then surround the filter with the bag, you usually can tuck it close to the filter mount. Unscrew the filter inside the bag and the oil will spill into the bag, not on the block and frame.

I've always figured that any engineer that designs an engine with a filter mounted anything BUT open side up has never done an oil change before.

I detest a dirty oily/ driping engine.After any oil change,be it mowers,automotive,Motorcycles.I always clean up any spilled oil and/or complete engine and surrounding areas by spraying with Gunk Engine cleaner.Then simply rinse with the water from a garden hose.When on sale,buy it by the case.

I agree Tom. Like Charles said, its not just the oil on the engine, its the oily gunk that builds up after a few mowings. I try to make the oil change as clean as possible, then clean up with rags from there. I screw up sometimes, spill oil for some foolish reason, so I keep an oil absorbant pad under the work area to catch any mess.

Dave01,
I have been doing exactly what you suggested, except I use a Zip-Lock bag to catch the oil and filter. I do the same thing changing the filter in my 91 Buick. However, even with this method, some oil runs down the side of the engine onto the paper towels I packed around the area to minimize how far it can go. I then clean up the remaining oil with a little gasoline on a rag (cold engine only). I try to remove all the leaked oil before installing the new filter. Also, there is a drain cock coming out of the engine base for draining the crankcase. When I finish using it, I wipe it clean and wrap a plastic sandwitch bag over the end, holding it on with a garbage bag tie. This prevents dust from sticking to this drain pipe and cock. I'm sure many will think I am too fussy with my tractor, but after 6 years, the engine and tractor frame are still free from oily dust. Charles Ranheim

i usually pour a little less than a pint of diesel in my oil, run the engine for a few minutes, then drain it out. cleans all the old oil out pretty good. it thins the oil enough that it all flows right on down, plus gives the insides a good cleaning. my dad was the best diesel mechanic around here and he taught me to always do this. i even do it for my truck, but i put in about a quart there. if your oil is already full, drain off a little first to allow for the diesel, remember too much oil is as bad as not enough!

i was out of diesel teh other day when i changed the oil in my GT so i just let it drain for a few minutes, then refilled. oil onthe stick looked brand new right after a refill. after running the motor for a few minutes, checked the oil again and it was getting a black tint to it fromteh old old still in the motor cavities.

Just my opinion, I don't like the diesel idea for every oil change. Adding diesel or engine flush is great for removing sludge or water/oil residue but I wouldn't do it every time. That little bit of leftover diesel after you drain will thin the new oil a bit, I'd rather have a few ounces of old oil than a few ounces of diesel mixing with my new oil.

When I've used engine flush (in boat engines, not tractor) I've drained the oil/flush mix after running 5 minutes, then I pour 4-6 ounces of fresh oil in with the plug still out, washes a bit more of the engine flush (or diesel) out before re-filling with fresh oil.

deeredoctor ,

Your comments about putting a drop of the suspected fuel.oil mix onto a piece of cardboard sounds interesting. One question: Do you have to run the engine for a while first to mix the oil? If there is fuel in the oil, does it separate from the oil, or does it stay mixed? Charles Ranheim

It really doesn't matter about running to mix it. I do this if there is concern or I smell fuel on the stick.

The fuel and oil seperate on the cardboard, thats why there is a ring around the drop of oil if fuel is present. The fuel absorbs quickly into the paper, the oil puddles. Thus, showing a ring around the oil. After a few minutes the oil will catch up to the fuel and only be one drop on the board. The more fuel in the oil the bigger the outer ring will be.

Hope that makes sense.

Hmm...

thats interesting about the cardboard test... I think ill do a little sample testing with some dirty oil I have laying around - thanks for that tip ...

I tried the tip suggested by deerdoctor. I let a drop of Mobil 1 10W-30 drip from my dipstick onto a piece of cardboard. It just slowly soaked into the cardboard without any outer ring showing. I then let a few drops of this same oil go into a small container, after which I dripped three drops of gasoline into it. I mixed the small quantity of gas & oil with a screwdriver. I then put a couple of drops of the mix on the same cardboard. The only difference I could see was the gas/oil mix soaked into the cardboard faster than the oil alone (Because it was thinner). I did not see an outer ring of gasoline around the drop of oil as expected. Has anyone else tried this? Did I do something wrong? Did my use of synthetic oil have any effect on the result? Lots of questions, but no answers yet. Charles Ranheim

cranheim,
I know the test works perfect on diesel. Been awhile since I tried it on a gas engine. Most of the time I can smell and feel the oil and tell if it has gas in it.

I just thought of something when I reread your original post. You have a 325, but which engine the single or V-twin. If its the V twin, I think I know what the problem is hopefully. We didn't sell many 325's with the V twin engine, only the singles.

Deerdoctor

I have the Kawasaki Air cooled 18hp twin engine. Charles Ranheim

Hey,
No need to rewrite the thread at the link below. Check the link out. Your 325 has the same engine as the GT245. Hopefully it will get you going into the right direction.

Later

I will try and answer any questions you may have. Later.

Here is a link that might be useful: GT 245 problem

deeredoctor,
I believe the GT 245 has the Kawasaki 20hp twin engine, that has a different carburator and air filter setup than the 325 18hp twin engine. I have the FH531-BS04 engine.
Charles Ranheim

I know they are different engines and I realize you are getting frustrated, but donÂt take this the wrong way. There are common items between engines even though they are technically different. You most likely have several minor items stacked up causing a problem. With out having experience looking for these things is like trying to tell you how to find a needle in a haystack. I am not going to try and train you how to trouble shoot the engine. You might just have to take it into the dealer.

That being said, some of the things talked about on the other thread are relevant.

Use a flashlight to shine through the paper element, must be able to see a round pattern of light.
Fuel quality.
Check the carburetor bowl vent hose for blockage.
Wrong sparkplugs? Champion RCJ8YÂs. What is the color of the sparkplug porcelains? Spark color blue?
Disconnect and ground coil wire one at a time, does engine power change. I find it common that many people donÂt know that their engine is running on 1 cylinder.
Disconnect the fuel pump pulse line going to the block, is it leaking gas?
Check/verify valve adjustment.
Check the compression.
Coil air gap set to minimum clearance?
Flywheel magnet strong?
Remove carburetor bowl and inspect needle and seat, is it stuck or have trash in it?
Clogged/ worn air or main jet? Not common though.

These are common things that can happen to any engine. You may have more than one problem, too.

SpecÂs

Slow Idle (governed) 1600 ± 75 rpm
Throttle Stop Screw Setting 100 rpm lower than governed setting
Fast Idle 3350 ± 50 rpm
Cylinder Compression Pressure (minimum) 390 kPa (57 psi)
Valve Clearance (cold) 0.075 - 0.125 mm (0.003 - 0.005 in.)
Valve Adjustment Screw Jam Nut Torque 6.9 Nm (61 lb-in.)
Rocker Arm Cover Cap Screw Torque 6 Nm (53 lb-in.)
Exhaust Valve ACR Movement (minimum) 0.25 mm (0.010 in.)
Crankcase Vacuum (minimum) 25 cm (10 in.) water
Oil Pressure at Fast Idle 240 - 310 kPa (35 - 45 psi)
Fuel Pump Pressure (minimum) 6.1 kPa (0.9 psi)
Fuel Pump Flow (minimum) 65 ml/15 seconds (2.2 oz/15 seconds)
Ignition Coil Air Gap 2 - 4 mm (0.008 - 0.016 in.)
Spark Plug Type Champion RCJ8Y
Spark Plug Gap 0.75 mm (0.030 in.)
Spark Plug Torque 15 Nm (132 lb-in.)

Deeredoctor,
Please understand my engine runs fine. I started this thread because my oil level seemed to go up a little after I changed it, and was looking for a way to determine if gas was getting into the oil. As I said before, I know I put more oil in the engine than the spec called for, because I wanted to get it right on the full mark. It is supposed to take 1.7 quarts with filter. I ended up putting almost two quarts in when I last changed it. One thought crossed my mind. Suppose the filter drainback valve leaked, and the oil that is normally trapped in the horizontal filter drains back into the crankcase. I would think that would raise the oil level.
As far as tune-up specs go, I set the Low Idle to 1500rpm, and the Hi Idle to 3333rpm. The compression on a hot engine while cranking with the throttle open was 115psi in Both cylinders. Because of the equal compression, I had no reason to check the valve clearance. (The engine only has about 280 hours on it) The rest of the tractor has about 390 hours on it. The JD manual maintenance schedule says to check the valve clearance at 500 hours. I have always maintained the engine, transmission, and associated filters better than the suggested maintenance schedule. So far, it runs great, and has never used any oil between changes.
Thanks for your interest, comments, and specs. I always value the input from everyone, especially someone with your experience. Charles Ranheim

Hey Charles,

My email kept coming back to me so I will post a short response here. I don't know why it would not go thru.

I have several customers that have 3000 and 4000 hours on the 345 model. I have never seen a trans fail on one of these machines. I wouldn't worry too much about the trans. Also JD is real good about parts support on there major lines of equipment, except string trimmers and saws. Keep the service interval up thats in your tractors fender glove box lid. Change the trans and hydrualic filters on time. Always clean the trans off before service to prevent possibly getting dirt in the trans during service. In time you also will be able to find good used parts if needed.

I have had weak spark on the Kawi single FC540 engine cause oil levels to rise and cause plug fouling, the remedy was to close the coil air gap to .008. The cardboard trick was used in a lab on diesels at a Jr. college I attended. The wrong air filter,jets, or miss drilled jets have been a problem on some tractors with the 20 hp V twin like on the GT245/GX255/GX335 and caused plug fouling and gas in oil situations.

Good Luck

deeredoctor,
Thanks for the information on the K70A transmission. So far, it works great. I really only use the tractor as a lawn mower 99% of the time. However, I did use it to haul 5 yards of topsoil using the JD P10 cart. Most of it had to be hauled uphill. I was surprised how easily it did this. There was no evidence of strain at all with the transmission. I do change the oil and two filters every 150 hours as specified. I also blow any clippings out of the cooling fins. I never wash the transmission with water, where some may get into the seals and output shafts to cause rust. I was just worried about losing the entire tractor because of a transmission failure. Do you happen to know what % of the oil they tested with the cardboard was gasoline? I may try this again using a softer cardboard than the old corrigated piece I did the test with. I still think the test may have some merit.
Take care, Charles Ranheim

Electric fuel solenoids leak after awhile. 1) you need to clean and rebuild that carb. 2) perform a leak down test on carb. 3) you may need to replace solenoid on carb aka anti backfire solenoid. 4) start using startron fuel addative from this point forward.