I don't have an answer for you -- but if it really IS the rose Mrs. Keays grew as "Creekside," I would grow it just because it was hers.

Jeri

Thanks for your reply, Jeri. So you think that it might not be either Jean Bach Sisley or Creekside Manor Tea? Hmm, the mystery deepens. Well, I was hoping to find out something for sure but maybe it will have to be my trial rose.

Is "Creekside Manor" supposed to be the Tea that Mrs. Keays thought was 'Souvenir d'un Ami'?

Kes, do you still have this rose, and how is it doing?

Thanks,

Virginia

Here is the description of the rose Mrs. Keays found growing at Creek Side, and which she thought must be 'Souvenir d'un Ami'"

Souvenir d'un Ami, 1846: For two years we hung affectionately about this fascinating rose, photographed it, and studied it through all the books on Tea roses we could find before we dared to say, "You are that old beloved Souvenir d'un Ami." Among all Tea roses of cupped form which we have seen, this rose has the most perfectly circular outline and the finest conformation of folded petals which are of a consistency, strength, and elastic softness of a non-crushable resilient dull silk we long for but never see. The color is, likewise, exquisitely soft, being a light rose, deeper in the center, with yellow shanks, so suffused with a light or infused with a color that the effect is that of a salmonish rose. Two bushes of this Souvenir were among the roses we found at Creek Side. They grow four to five feet, making strong shoots which bear abundant foliage, leathery and much tinted with purplish red, and branching into loose clusters of blooms, each rose on a good stem, the whole forming a wide umbel of bloom. This rose excited curiosity as well as admiration. We wonder how it acquired its unusual blessings of perfect features, form, texture, color, fragrance, beauty and strength of foliage and perfect hardiness. Speaking of Souvenir d'un Ami, Parsons says in his book, "The Rose", "It is indeed the queen of the tea-scented roses and will rank the very first among them."

I'd be interested to hear from anyone growing "Creekside Manor" if they think this is a good description of that rose. If so, I'll add it to the references for the "CM" record at HMF.

Thanks,

Virginia

I didn't say it wasn't ... just that if it a rose Mrs. Keays grew, I would love to have it. PARTICULARLY if it matches that matchless description.

I am tempted to order "CM" from RPN, but I would like to know whence it came...

Virginia

Wow - Kes Z, looks like you have a winner! If it really is Souvenir d'un Ami, that would explain its unusual hardiness for a tea. If you look on HMF, there are lots of pictures of SdA, and you could compare them with the actual look of the blooms and your bush. Just remember that tea roses frequently put out blooms which are variable in color, etc.

Looking forward to you posting pictures of YOUR rose on here - can you do that?

Jackie

Does anyone know the provenance of the Vintage acquisition? The photos of "CM" from the FSC garden do seem to resemble Mrs. Keays' description...

Whether it's a match for the original 'Souvenir d'un ami', I can't say. 'SdA' may be extinct, although there are quite a few different candidates for the title, as you can see if you look at the HMF photos. The Australian Teabag ladies seem to have decided that their SdA is not the real deal, but it is clearly not the same rose as "Creekside Manor".

Regardless of its original name, "Creekside Manor" seems to be a great rose- not just for those of us in Tea-friendly climates, but also for zone-pushers, given its proven hardiness.

Its hardiness is a good argument for it being the rose Mrs. Keays grew in MD. I believe that Doug Seidel rescued some plants from Creek Side, but don't know if this might have been one of them...

Virginia

Vintage got it from the Huntington. No provenance before that listed in their catalog, although Gregg may know more of the history of how it got to the Huntington. Vintage catalog says: "Deep pink scrolled buds open to wide coronets of clear pink creased petals. Foliage is dark, handsome and very fine. This treads the line between Tea and China but whatever you call it, it is a superior shrub for the garden. Mrs. Keays grew a foundling she called "Creekside Manor" which is identical to what we received from the Huntington as Jean-Bach Sisley. She considered this the best candidate for the real Souvenir d'Un Ami, a possibility worth re-investigating. What is currently offered under that name is clearly at odds with early descriptions and illustrations." They list it in their Teas section, and it seems to me to be more Tea-like than China-like. I don't grow a supposed 'Jean-Bach Sisley' for comparison; and even if I did, since the Huntington distributed this rose under that name, comparing may not accomplish much in that regard, depending on where the nursery selling JBS got theirs.

Thanks very much for that info. I wanted to add the above reference to HMF, but first wanted some confirmation that 'Creekside Manor" was the rose that was supposed to be Mrs. Keays' candidate for 'SdA'.

Is the quote from the Vintage catalog from 2006? If I can trouble you for a page number, I'll add that as well. Currently there is very little info at HMF about this rose; I think it deserves to be better known.

Virginia

I wish I could post pictures. I'm not very tech savvy but worse yet, I lost this rose and two other favorites to RRD last year. It hit three roses that had been doing fairly well for me. Up until I lost Creekside Manor, it was a slow but steady grower. It was still very young and I don't know if it eventually would have looked like Mrs Keay's lyrical description but it didn't look like my other teas, either. It was salmon pink, full and had a nice fragrance. I'm not good at describing fragrance- maybe sweet?- but not the herbal scent that many teas have. I don't spray but this rose wouldn't have needed it. If Rose Petals has the CM that I lost, I think I'll order it again. For me, it didn't seem like the kind of a rose that would stop traffic but it seemed the kind that could be depended upon to grow and look good. I value that.

BTW I lost both of my teas- one never came back after that winter and the other was weakened and didn't make it through the following colder than average winter. CM sailed through both without any dieback. I wondered if there might be a bourbon rose behind it somewhere, but what do I know? Do you wonder if it would do OK in Z6?

Dr. Manners, I see that the info you supplied came from the HMF description page; I didn't remember that it was there, just that there was nothing in the References. Thanks, again.

Kes, I am so sorry to hear that you're battling RRD there, and that CM was tough enough to survive the Polar Vortex, but got zapped by the RRD scourge. It sounds like it might be worth another try, though.

It might be alright in z6 with some protection; there's only one way to find out, though...

Thanks,

Virginia

From the talks that I heard Doug Seidel give, I don't remember him talking about going to Mrs. Keyes' home.

I do remember Stephen Scaniello going there and bringing roses out of the poison ivy thickets. His talks' photos made me itch in sympathy.

Hi Ann-

My source was an HMF reference from an article written by Rev. Seidel for "Heritage Roses" in which he discusses going out to Creekside in 1973; I don't have the whole article, but part of it is quoted in the most recent reference for "Mrs Keays' Pink Noisette".

Rescuing roses from poison ivy thickets is an act of real devotion. Perhaps Mr. Scaniello is the source for "Creekside Manor"?

Thanks,

Virginia

Here is a picture of my now defunct "Souvenir d'un Ami". I tried to compare it to Mrs. Keay's description but have a feeling that this is not the one she described. Mine was an irritating rose that often looked unsightly once open and was a poor bloomer at that.

Ingrid, I'll take your unsightly anytime. I like your high standards. Mine, as a Tea rose beginner are still developing. I also have the < 1 yr olds so I don't always see the mature blooms yet. The above photo looks beautiful to me.

Ingrid, I agree that your SdA probably isn't the same rose as the one Mrs. Keays described, and it certainly doesn't look like "Creekside Manor".

I wouldn't say unsightly, either, but I do recall that you aren't a huge fan of Teas with muddled blooms, which these definitely exhibit. The foliage looks very handsome, though.

Virginia

Sheila and vmr, the above picture is SdA at its best. Had it always looked like that I would have been a happy camper. I actually don't mind muddled blooms but as I recall this one went from muddled to ugly in less than a day.

Of course, Ingrid's climate is pretty intense. It might not be the right rose for her situation -- and still be good somewhere else.

There are several nurseries selling a Tea called 'Souvenir d'un Ami', but I don't know if they are all selling the same rose.

I know Teas are variable, but is this Souv. d'unAmi the same rose we saw in Ingrid's photo? Maybe so- I can't tell.

Virginia

Virginia, I would venture to say it is the same rose as mine, just looking a little more glamorous. Of course, neither mine nor theirs seems to be the original, correct one.

I do have the RVR SdunAmi and I think it could be Ingrid's. The Tea Ladies have a different rose in their book, it looks like. Theirs is labeled Mme de Tartas at the Huntington in 2001 they say. This is confusing. The Tea ladies say the color is very variable for theirs.