use NEEM. I use organocide and it works well.

I think you are overgeneralizing that aphids & rose mites will "spread disease" - as the examples you use show, the ones that may spread disease are ANIMAL PARASITES like ticks and mosquitoes. Aphids do not bite people or animals. Just trying to keep some realism in this discussion - it is a complicated enough subject without such flights of fancy.

Jackie

Aphids spread at least one of the rose viruses, rose spring dwarf.

Here is a link that might be useful: one aphid spread rose virus, rose spring dwarf

Henry's claim that aphids spread viruses is disputed. But for HEAVENS sake, let's not get THAT going again.

For sure, squishing, brushing, or washing aphids will NOT give you "cooties."
Nor will they come back to suck another day.

These are safer, cheaper methods of ridding yourself of aphids than any substance you could spray on them.

Jeri

Whether or not you believe Henry's information about aphids spreading rose diseases doesn't matter. For sure they do not spread PEOPLE diseases!

behlgarden- we sprayed neem this winter and I haven't seen one aphid this spring. highly unusual. I'm sold.

jerijen, it is not my claim. It is what has been reported in the reviewed scientific literature. Please provide your documentation that the "claim" is disputed.

As far as I can tell from a Google and a Google Scholar search there is no dispute.

The following is a quote from one of the follow-up reviewed scientific papers which cites the original California Davis reviewed scientific paper, Salem et al. 2008 (as of today the original California Davis paper Salem et al. 2008 has been cited by 5 other scientific papers, according to Google Scholar.).

"This aphid causes rose spring dwarf disease in the USA and Chile by transferring RSDaV (Rivera and Engel 2010; Salem et al. 2008)."
http://www.iliauni.edu.ge/files/pdf/Barjadze-et-al-2011.pdf

That's it, I'm bailing.

I wouldn't touch this thread again with a 10-ft. pole.
If this starts up again, I'll just go elsewhere. I don't have time to waste on this stuff.

Jeri

I could never have guessed that anyone would think I was referring to plant parasites spreading disease to animals or humans! Never in a million years would I have thought that I would have to specifically state in the Rose Forum that I was talking about plant parasites potentially spreading disease among plants or, of course, specifically about spread to and among roses.
I really don't think further clarification is required, but while I'm here I might as well also say that the animal diseases spread by parasites listed as examples were used to make an analogy. The analogy was supposed to work something like this: if animal parasites can spread disease among animals, then it is conceivable that plant parasites can spread disease among plants (whether or not they currently do so).
The misinterpretation certainly gave me a good laugh though. Thanks for that. On the other hand should I feel worried about how such a distortion could occur and therefore guilty about the laugh? Nope, thanks for the laugh.

feh - I generally just ignore them now - the roses seem to come through unscathed, despite being completely thick with greenfly. They wreck my campanulas though. And yep, they dp spread nasty viruses - the ongoing battle with various aphid and mite spread virus on the fruit bushes testify to that.

Kuska?
Are you the Kuska that gave Rippetoe a yellow rose?

And on the original subject: there exist plant parasites that spread diseases among plants which are well documented.
Search "asian citrus psyllid" or "glassy-winged sharpshooter."

Yes I hybridized the yellow climber that I gave Robert Rippetoe budwood (and others).

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.63226&tab=36

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

Insecticidal soap--isn't that kind of a misnomer? It's not like insecticide mixed with soap, right? It's just...soap.

Asian citrus psyllid does not colonize roses.

Glassy-winged sharpshooter DOES, but is harmful to grapes, rather than roses.
Neither is desirable, but if you have Asian citrus psyllid, you'll find it on your orange tree, not on your rose.

Hoov -- It IS soap. And it DOES kill insects -- so it is insecticidal. It's also not systemic, and I don't think it kills much of anything you don't spray it onto, so it's pretty decent stuff, if you've really got a problem.

Jeri

Try ladybugs...they'll take care of the aphids, for you :)

There you go, LL! Again, I quit spraying years ago and am seeing ladybugs, tons of butterflies, etc. that I never had before! It took awhile, but haven't had aphids or other problems I used to have, I think things finally balanced themselves out...

Hi hoovb,

I think Jeri's answer to your question is excellent. (Thank you Jeri).
That is my experience with the product. The only thing I would add is a caveat. I had a learning curve about "more not being better" which is why I use the word "spritz," and a learning curve about when to apply it. Because the aphids only seem interested in tender new growth and the bud stems from the abscission point, too much or bad timing can 'burn' that tender growth. As for timing, I've learned that either very early before the heat of the day or late after the heat of the day works well. The perfect time is a couple of hours before it rains which here is like saying "when the goose lays the golden egg" because I live in the Sunshine State.

The ladybud topic.
A friend recently said: "I moved to Florida in October and thought I'd found Paradise, then July came and I thought I was in Hell." The ladybugs I've observed in my garden when they visit relentlessly search around on clean leaves and stems of other plants like they're blind. I've gone days without using the soap and they continue to walk around on the clean stuff while the aphids are getting fat. I chalk it up to Florida.

Spraying.
I quit spraying years ago too. I've raised swallowtail cats already this year on my fennel. I see butterflies every day except in the winter; hummingbirds have visited every day for part of the year the last two years and bees of various types abound (some I had never known to exist). Dragonflies frequent my garden. And the platoons of anoles and the visiting garter snakes deter none of them or me. I have mourning doves, cardinals, finches, and mockingbirds and lots of worms. Last year finally spiders arrived to join in the helpful hunt. And I am probably forgetting others right now.
I've used the insecticidal soap for years now and can attest it has no adverse effects except on the targets.

I've used the soap on aphids too and I have to agree about sandandsun's caveats. More is not better and watch the temps carefully when you use it because it can and will burn new growth. That's one of the reasons I also quit using any kind of oil treatments. Every time I've ever used an oil product of any kind I burned my leaves. And I don't live in the sunshine state but relatively chilly in comparison Michigan. I still say a regular good hard spray with the hose works best for aphids.

Aphids are pretty bad this year here in NY ...I hadn't been outside in the garden in nearly a week but went ouside yesterday and all of my new growth was swarming with them. I located an old bottle of Cygon I had in the shed and gave all the bushes a good spray...checked later in the day and not a single aphid was to be found.

scottys:

I wish you had reported that there were dead little aphids on the roses instead of "not...to be found."
I started using the insecticidal soap because of a memory from childhood. Our nextdoor neighbor was a farmer although the farm was about a mile away on a couple of acres where he sold his own produce roadside. Anyway, he died and his wife told me that the doctor had said that the cancer was probably due to inhaling pesticide for all of those years. True enough it was probably DDT in those days, but for me it was a lesson. And I'm glad that there are alternatives in some cases like the soap on the aphids. I still have to use powerful pesticide on the fire ants because nothing else works.

I stopped spraying 20 years ago and while I do get aphids in the early spring they are never a problem and are taken care of by beneficial insects. I always have small populations of all the usual pests, but never an overwhelming infestation, not once in the last 20 years of gardening.

I truly believe that spraying generally creates additional problems that require more spraying in a never ending cycle.

If you haven't gardened in Florida, it is really difficult to actually know the meanings of pest and pestilence. I gardened for years in zones 4, 5, and 7. Nothing in my prior experience could have made me believe the realities of gardening in Florida.
The aphids arrive like a biblical plague here and are followed by an continual procession of challenges of one sort or another for the garden. For example, in those other areas I'd see a grasshopper once in a while - those pretty green grasshoppers. Here , I see and kill locusts (not swarming mind you but locusts nonetheless) every week of the growing season - real African locusts.
I take comfort that the beneficial insects might be keeping it from being even worse, but the beneficials are seriously outnumbered.

We had quite a few aphids in late March around here. I did buy some ladybugs (as the native ones hadn't arrived yet)and sprinkled them in my gardenias and mums (they really seem to love those plants). Well they stayed, got busy and right at this moment there are larvae crawling all over my crape myrtles because that's where the aphids are hanging out right now. Wa-hoo.

Aphids aren't really the big problem though, it's thrips. Wow are they thick out there! Everytime I step outside they bite me. Blah. Can't wait till that dies down. Seems like the thrips came in waves last year before finally dying down. I'm glad at least that they didn't ruin the first round of flowers (like they did last year). I do believe they've come around at about the same time, but the early start to spring helped give my garden a headstart.

(p.s. I hope that all made sense. I have a wicked cold. lol)

I spray for aphids. Specifically, I spray WATER on aphids and it knocks them off the plants.

I don't go around afterwards looking for carcasses. I wonder if anyone's done any kind of research on whether adding anything else to the water makes it any more effective than just plain water?

I know this works in Illinois.....but I also have seen how critters get bigger the further south you go. I'm thinking that by the time a person gets to Florida, it's possible that the aphids have drivers' licenses. Seriously---how do you gardeners in Florida manage? I'd freak out.

Flaura, I once read a gardening article written by an "expert" who extolled planting enough of whatever it was you were planting for both you and the bugs and then you needn't worry about controlling the bugs. I laughed so hard. It was obvious she didn't live in Florida. it's impossible to plant enough for the bugs here, especially after our mild winter which wasn't cold enough to kill off any of the pests.

That is kinda funny; I'd think that if you increased the amount of a particular planting, that you'd attract even more of that particular pest, and give them exactly what they want to grow big & strong and NUMEROUS. Seems illogical that the number of insects would remain the same & you'd have more undisturbed plantings, regardless of where you live.

I'm really laughing now, thinking of this....So, if I want to eat sugar off my sidewalk but it keeps attracting ants, I should put a bigger pile of sugar out there? hehehe

One of the nice things about living in the ice-box area is if nothing else stops bugs the weather will.

Other than some bad nematodes I zapped some years back I have never had bug infestation that were a disaster, well maybe potato bugs but back in the seventies, an Ivy that has been on the house longer than I have been alive was infested, it looked like red paint, with mites.

No one especially cared for the ivy so I took some Black Flag and gave it a goos blast.
The ivy looked like it had a bad hang-over for a good chunk of the rest of the year but I did not see another mite until about five years ago.

The ivy is doing just fine.

Exactly, Flaura. This was in Southern Living no less, but then I've also read articles in there stating Larkspur, Nasturtiums and a few other annuals don't transplant well, when in actuality they do. It's astounding the gardening myths that are perpetuated in gardening magazines.

Title: DYNAMIC ASPECTS OF THE CHEMICAL RELATION BETWEEN THE ROSE APHID MACROSIPHUM-ROSAE AND ROSE BUDS
Author: MILES P W

Author affiliation: WAITE AGRIC. RES. INST., UNIV. ADELAIDE, ADELAIDE, S. AUST.

Published in: Entomologia Experimentalis et Applicata, volumn 37, pages 129-136, (1985).

Abstract: "Dynamic aspects of the chemical relation between the rose aphid [Macrosiphum rosae] and rose buds.In warm weather, M. rosae (L.) walks off buds of hybrid tea roses during a critical period coinciding with the opening of the sepals. This behavior could not be related to histologically detectable barriers to feeding, nor to changes in the water content of the tissues or in their composition with respect to total soluble carbohydrate, amino nitrogen or phenolic compounds; major changes in tissue chemistry, effected by spraying the bushes with urea, did not affect the time at which the aphids left the buds. Tissue sap expressed from stems and sepals showed a significant increase in catechin content after, rather than during, the critical period. Once expressed, however, sap from buds at the critical stage showed a sharp in vitro rise in catechin content over a few hours, up to levels approximating those against which the insects discriminated in choice tests. The insects could well be sensitive to a developing capacity of tissue to accumulated catechin, possibly in response to their feeding activity."
--------------------------------------------
Title: "Interactions among convergent lady beetle (Hippodamia convergens) releases, aphid populations, and rose cultivar"

Authors: Mary Louise Flint(a),Steve H. Dreistadt(b)

Authors affiliation:
a Department of Entomology, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA
b IPM Education and Publications, Statewide IPM Program, University of California, Davis, CA 95616-8620, USA

Published in: Biological Control, Volume 34, Issue 1, July 2005, Pages 38�46.

Abstract: "Release of adult convergent lady beetles, Hippodamia convergens Gu�rin-M�neville (Coleoptera: Coccinellidae), provided inundative control of aphids (Homoptera: Aphididae) infesting Rosa hybrida outdoors in nursery containers and in the landscape. In potted roses, a single release of 100 lady beetles per 19 liter plant provided 66�88% aphid control during 1994 and 1995. In the landscape, a single release of about 175 or 350 lady beetles per 0.5�1 m tall shrub during 1994, 1995, and 2002 failed to reduce aphid density. However, each of one or two subsequent releases of about 1400�1750 H. convergens per shrub reduced aphid densities in the landscape to near zero (93�100% control). Releasing 10�20 beetles per flower bud controlled aphids on shoots caged to prevent insect dispersal. On uncaged rose shoots, 100 or more H. convergens per bud were required to control aphids. The effective rate for inundative release in landscape roses was about 2300 beetles/m2 (210/ft2) of shrub-covered surface, or two orders of magnitude greater than the 11�22 beetles/m2 (1�2/ft2) commonly recommended by beetle sellers. Based on three lady beetle releases during April�May when aphids are abundant on rose in California�s Central Valley, lady beetle costs are about the same as one soil drench of the systemic insecticide imidacloprid. Rose cultivar affected aphid density, but cultivar did not affect augmentative predation. Cultivar selection and high-rate predator release are complimentary strategies for aphid management on rose."

I'm not a simpleton, but those^ posts always confuse the buggar out of me.

Flaurabunda wondered whether adding anything else to the water would make it more effective. About the simplest step up from a water spray for aphids would be a hot water spray. Supposedly, a water spray at 113 to 131 degrees C is fatal to aphids but not harmful to rose leaves (I wouldn't dawdle with the spray in one location).

Here is a link that might be useful: hot water and other sprays

It appears that pirate bugs are good for controlling both aphids and thrips (possibly even mites). Has anyone tried them?

Aphids
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03235408.2011.587290

Thrips
http://openagricola.nal.usda.gov/Record/IND44014171

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/envent/1983/00000012/00000005/art00034

link for article with suppliers listed
http://www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/general/htms/pirbug.htm

And Minute Pirate Bugs are as cute as. . . A bug. :-)

Jeri

A long time ago, Kim Rupert told me that aphids are killed by water simply because they do not have lungs. So, to my mind, there is no need to add anything to the water.

This week the aphids showed up in my garden and so did the ladybugs. It always seems to work out that way.

I just wish there was a known predator for rose curculios.

Smiles,
Lyn

From the Iowa State University link below,
"They are present all summer in fields, woodlands, gardens and landscapes. They quietly go about their business without anyone taking notice until late in the summer when they migrate from fields and woodlands and begin the disagreeable behavior of biting humans. Their bite is surprisingly painful for such a small insect as they probe their short blunt beak into the skin."

Hmm, sounds like just what we need in Florida Mr. Kuska. No disrespect but we've already got mosquitoes by the swarm and biting gnats galore.

I'm not importing these. NO WAY. Plus, Iowa State says that they are active in the summer. I need parasitic controls in the spring and fall.

Appreciate the effort, of course.

As for the folks who feel that they must post that they DON'T have a problem, OR are UNCONCERNED about it being a potential problem. Fine, but why must it be said?
IF your experience changes in future, I hope I still have my memory.

Here is a link that might be useful: Minute Pirate Bugs

Darn, I hoped I had Minute Pirate Bugs but on checking all I have is Hackberry Lace Bugs which are as annoying as the Pirate but minus the beneficial effect.

I've thought about my comment:
"As for the folks who feel that they must post that they DON'T have a problem, OR are UNCONCERNED about it being a potential problem. Fine, but why must it be said?
IF your experience changes in future, I hope I still have my memory."

And I realised that some of those I described in my comment, have parasites of their own.

Rose Curculios:

The Oregon State University link for Pacific Northwest Nursery Integrated Pest Management: http://oregonstate.edu/dept/nurspest/rose_curculio_weevil.htm

refers one to: http://www.sactorose.org/ipm/84rosecurculios.htm

Interestingly, the advice for control there is "soapy water." Hmm.

AND thrips:

The University of California at Davis, see link below, lists as one of the control methods "...insecticidal soaps ... effective for temporary reduction of thrips populations if applied when thrips are present and damage first appears...."

I don't think I need to state the obvious deduction, DO I?

As usual, I've been attempting to help others. I could keep my knowledge and experience to myself. I'm certainly often tempted to do so given the behaviors of numerous individuals on these forums (as in driven not only nearly out of my mind by some of the responses I get but also driven away from sharing here). I think Kim has a wonderful quote about knowledge and sharing it. On the other hand, history teaches us how Galileo and others suffered for voicing their knowledge and that Da Vinci and others kept silent from those lessons. I'm certainly no Galileo, but the point is that we, modern folk, somehow know that "civilized" people wouldn't do such things, don't we? - even though the perpetrators then were the most civilized folk of their era.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pests in Gardens and Landscapes

Sandandsun ... you said, "As for the folks who feel that they must post that they DON'T have a problem, OR are UNCONCERNED about it being a potential problem. Fine, but why must it be said?
IF your experience changes in future, I hope I still have my memory."

OK. I will never respond to any of your threads in the future.

Smiles,
Lyn

Don't mean to interupt, but I've been watching this thread because I've had an aphid and mite problem on the roses I overwintered in my basement.

Surprisingly, my roses flourished and bloomed overwinter in my basement. However, they have aphids and mites. I read online to mix a couple Tbsp.s dish soap in a gallon of H2o, spray that on, then wait a few hours & spray with water. I did that, but the next day I looked and there were still aphids. Now what? Do I need to buy a special insecticidal soap?
Thank you,
Kitty

Kitty,

I buy it.
The mostly forgotten gardening advisor, Jerry Baker, had a "recipe" for make it yourself insecticidal soap. I haven't tried it so I can't say.
I keep hoping that someone with a chemistry background will give us a REALLY SIMPLE homemade fix. If I understand correctly, the functionality is provided by a "soap" film layer left on the insects as the formulation dries. Insects "breathe" through their "skin" and the film layer smothers them. (The chemistry thing is about the soap to use or mix because there are bar soaps, laundry, dish, etc. all with different properties).
I don't like to make endorsements primarily because manufacturers seem overly anxious to change their products. In my experience this often results in reduced effectiveness or ruin. An unrelated analogy would be the "brilliant" marketing strategy of improving Coca-Cola which the market actually rejected out of hand. So, if I were to endorse a product here now that product might not be the same in 6 months. The UC-Davis thrip management discussion which I've linked above as "Pests in Gardens and Landscapes" gives the brand name of the product they tested though.

I think people are telling you that they don't have a problem because they're doing what you asked: sharing observations of methods that work.

I get aphids. I spray with water. I have no more aphids.

If it didn't work, I'd state that as well.

What I'd read on here previously about soaps is that basically, their efficacy comes from the slippery quality of soap.

In an earlier thread I wondered if silicates in plant sap would deter aphids.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/roses/msg030010308429.html

The link below suggests that it may be worth trying:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1519-566X2003000400017

I also linked to this article in a rust thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: another aphid silicon article

flaurabunda,

As usual, I do not mean to be rude and this isn't directed AT you, flaurabunda, just in response to your post for clarification purposes.

1. I did not ask anyone to share their observations.
Where exactly did you find that statement? 2. Would you have Kitty hose down her basement? 3. You clearly have mistaken my humility for a lack of certainty. The phrase "if I understand correctly" is polite. I DO understand it correctly. Slippery quality has nothing to do with it.
4. LASTLY for this thread, there is a vast difference between repeating something and knowing something.

I didn't know Sheldon Cooper was interested in roses.

Dang, the forum cops should come after both of us then. I don't recall anyone asking you to start this thread, either.

If Kitty wants to hose her basement down that's her prerogative, but I'd suggest she move out any of her electronics first and wear some waders. I guess I should have made that clear to Kitty first. Sorry, Kitty, if you flooded your basement before taking those precautions. Call me, I know a good water-removal company.

Good one, Mike!

"Studies were conducted to examine the effect of treating Zinnia elegans Jacq. with soluble silicon on the performance of the green peach aphid"

"Overall, these results indicate treatment of Z. elegans with soluble silicon provides a modest increase in resistance levels to M. persicae, which may be caused in part by defense-related compounds."

Here is a link that might be useful: 2008 research

Mike Rivers: ROFLMAO! That made my day.