I would dig out the stuff in the woods and figure out how much compost you have. It may need screeing to get some of the larger stuff out, but that is your call. You will only need to dig in an inch of compost into the purchased soil. If you have more, then add it but it is not necessay to add 4" of compost.

Soil is about 50% porosity. The remaining 50% is the mineral fraction (sand, silt and clay) and organic matter. If you have at least 5% organic matter, then all is well.

You will need to add fertilizer to grow vegetables. You can probably get away without it but your organic matter will be used up more quickly.

Soil is composed of about 45 percent mineral, the clay, silt, sand particles, 25 percent air, 25 percent water, and about 5 percent organic matter. You have readily available under your feet all the soil you need, the only thing you need do is add organic matter to that soil and you will have some very good growing soil. There is no need, ever, to spend money buying soil although buying organic matter may be necessary.

There is no need, ever, to spend money buying soil although buying organic matter may be necessary.

How can you say that? If someone doesn't have sufficient soil to fill raised beds, they don't have enough. Period. What are they going to do, excavate it out of somewhere else in the garden and leave a big crater? What a silly thing to say!

There are often very valid reasons for importing some sort of soil and filling a quantity of raised beds is one of them. You are adding to the soil that already exists in your garden and you can't create it out of thin air. Just adding organic matter is not sufficient, as it will shrink with further decomposition and it takes a long time to build up enough OM to fill a quantity of raised beds and maintain a sufficient and stable planting level.

Look for bulk soil suppliers in your area, select what you think is an appropriate mix and fill your beds. Add whatever composted organic material you have on hand, following cowgirl's suggestions. The resultant product should be suitable for growing a wide range of veggies.

Andrew: Many (most?) landscaping and soil companies sell "garden mix" of soil and compost. Might or might not be great stuff. Adding your own compost and vermicompost would probably improve it. Might be helpful to actually see, feel, and smell the stuff before buying if possible. You might ask local friends and neighbors for companies they'd recommend.

I agree with gardengal. You can't make enough soil to fill a raised bed out of nothing. Some of us just don't have a mountain of extra soil sitting in our yards begging to be moved. That's a ridiculous statement Kimm.

Karen

The pile from stuff you've been dumping out in the woods sounds excellent. Just brush off the top layers and the dark stuff you describe underneath is excellent compost. If there's enough to fill the raised beds don't buy any thing at all.

Andrew

Sure, I'd dig some of that soil out of the woods (if it's your property) and use it. If you have been dumping in there for years, then in all likelihood that soil would be suitable for at least some of your beds. Is there enough back there for what you want to do?

Lloyd

P.S. Not a gardener.

Definatly use the stuff in the woods if your getting that much dirt I'm sure it would be cheaper by the truck load talk to a local dirt guy here I get 10 yard load of "top soil" for $100 it was kinda rough but work for the yard He also had "garden soil" black dirt mixed with compost, peat, and sand screened out for $150 of course thats just a general idea
As far as not needing any soil if everybody lived in the garen of eaden like kimmsr we wouldn't need this forum would we

>How can you say that? If someone doesn't have sufficient soil to fill raised beds, they don't have enough. Period. What are they going to do, excavate it out of somewhere else in the garden and leave a big crater? What a silly thing to say!

True perhaps if one believes raised beds must have solid sides sitting above the surface of the soil and requiring imported materials to fill it.

That's the idea the Square Foot guy and others would have us believe but for thousands of years, raised beds have been achieved by simply mounding up the soil, raking soil from the paths and adding amendments such as compost.

This has worked well for me for decades. Can't think of many reasons why I would ever buy or import soil with my garden's greatest resource free for use right underfoot.

Wayne

Wayne, I appreciate that you may have adequate supplies of soil that you can use to mound and augment with OM to provide an ideal planting area. But every gardening situation is different and in some very small urban gardens - which tend to be the norm in many areas of the country - and for various other situations, what you propose is just not an option. And some folks prefer to garden in constructed raised beds for an assortment of reasons - they prefer the structured environment or appearance, they are physically handicapped, or their own garden soil is unsuitable because of heavy clay, poor drainage, etc. and raised beds are the most efficient way of dealing with it. Importing soil under these conditions and amending with whatever organic matter they have at hand is perfectly reasonable and no one should be made to feel guilty, inadequate or not a "good gardener" for doing so.

Nope, Not a whole lot of surplus stuff. I double dig my beds which fluffs up the soil. I add any composted material I have and rake the soil out of the paths unto the beds. I've been told what I start out with is less a raised bed than lowered paths. The effect, however, is still the same.

I've worked these beds in heavy, poorly drained clay in my market gardens in Southern NY, later in sandy soil in the Adirondacks and now in shallow sandy loam in Western Maine.

Regardless, the original poster gave no indication that there is anything "wrong" with his soil. In fact, it sounds very much like his native soil is already benefitting greatly by the mere presence of organic matter piled upon it. I will state to him that he might consider a more traditional method of raised beds unless he suffers from the few limitations that gardengal lists.

I agree that " no one should be made to feel guilty, inadequate or not a "good gardener" for doing so." It is ridiculous to assume that offering an option to Andrew does that.

Wayne

Sorry,Gardengal but I agree with Kimmser. No top soil needs to be bought. I filled 18" tall raised beds with lasagna & it was the best garden I EVER had. The stuff in the woods is ideal for filling the beds. If there isn't enough of it to fill all of the beds, I'd partially fill the beds with lasagna and then top them off with the "leaf mold". The bugs & worms mix it all up for you, bringing the organic matter down into the soil you already have and bringing soil up into the organic matter. The beds warmed up nicely in the spring and drained very well.

Just to play this game, if a person has bought a new house in a new development where the developer had stripped off and removed all the topsoil before construction, leaving the purchaser with a covering of clay, sand and rocks 6 inches below grade, might one want to purchase some soil then?

Lloyd

You know, it constantly amazes me how narrow minded many of the posters are to this forum. If one tends to deviate in the slightest way from the popularly held theories they immediately get slammed. No, you should never buy soil - what a waste of money! No, you should never use peat - it is irreplaceable and environmentally irresponsible (hah!). No, you should never use any kind of fertilizer - any 'gardener worth his salt' never needs any! No, you can't compost any prepared starch - it gets soggy and turns to......well gee, it turns to compost!

Get off your high horses, people! You have obviously have no idea of the different range of gardening conditions that can exist, both with regards to sites and their limitations and to gardeners and their limitations and to superimpose your opinions on how they should be conducting their life and their garden is extremely presumptuous and offensive. What works for you may not be the slightest bit appropriate for them with regards to physical ability, economy, time constraints or site conditions.

Why is it necessary to be so dogmatic and judgemental? If someone wants to purchase soil to fill their raised beds, it's their choice for whatever reason and no skin off your nose so why make inane statements like "there is no need, ever, to spend money buying soil" when there are many valid reasons do so but doesn't have to be any more of a reason except that's the way they choose to do it.

It's fine to offer suggestions of alternate methods that they can consider but it takes time and a lot of materials to thoroughly prepare a lasagna method raised bed and if they have a lot to fill, that may not be the most efficient approach. Same with the mounded beds - not everyone has the energy to double dig (if they even think that method still appropriate) nor does that method of preparing a mounded bed necessarily fit into their specific garden setting. But to make absolute statements to the effect that their choice of method is somehow deficient, ridiculous or irresponsible if it doesn't meet your narrow parameters is not the slightest bit helpful, is inaccurate and misleading and just turns people away from what should be a very enjoyable and fulfilling pastime.

>Just to play this game, if a person has bought a new house in a new development where the developer had stripped off and removed all the topsoil before construction, leaving the purchaser with a covering of clay, sand and rocks 6 inches below grade, might one want to purchase some soil then?

Not interested in playing a game about conditions that the original poster never mentioned or in Gardengal48's interest in confrontation.

If Andrew, the original poster, tells us any of those conditions exist, then well and good. In the meantime, no need to hijack his thread.

Andrew, I've been gardening using raised beds since about 1977. If you want to get back to discussing raised bed gardening, please don't be discourgaged by those who wish to take the thread in another direction. There are lots of options.

Wayne

ROTFL

Wayne you already said you could think of reasons why a person might need to buy or import soil, why would you think I was talking to you?

As far as the OP, he said he needed to obtain some soil, telling him he doesn't, without ascertaining further details of his situation, is just plain arrogant in my books.

As GG48 has stated, it happens a lot around here with a few members, just the nature of the beast I guess. At least she has the fortitude to tell it like it is.

Hopefully by pointing out the unreliability of some members, it might prevent some new folks from being led down a garden path. (pun intended)

Lloyd

First off, if soil is needed, it's needed. Go out and buy it, just be sure to examine the mix before they deliver it.

As for being dogmatic, slamming folks, intolerant of slightest deviations, well, gardengal48 is a bit too dark to call any kettle black.

tj

I am very narrow minded about this since there is simply no good reason for anyone to ever buy soil. Even if someone were to be lucky enough to buy loam, a particular type of soil that is 45 percent sand, 25 percent silt, 25 percent clay, and 5 percent organic matter, that would only be, when mixed with what you already had, good for maybe a year. "Topsoil", according to my Webster, is the top 4 inches of soil. What you buy is what the seller made and whether it is any good is highly debatable.
What most all soils need is organic matter, not more of the mineral component that all other soils have the most of so why would anyone want to spend money on some mineral material they already have? Spend your money on organic matter, if you must spend money, but for many of use the best source of organic matter, those deciduous trees around us, most often is sent off someplace to be gotten rid of and then becomes part of a pollution problem.
I think anyone that thinks one must buy soil has a closed mind, has not thought this out logically.

""Topsoil", according to my Webster, is the top 4 inches of soil."

Is Webster the name of a dog because it sure as heck doesn't say that in the Webster Dictionary I have. Nor on the on-line version. For that matter, I looked at several dictionaries on line and couldn't find one that mentioned your 4 inches. Maybe it's time for a new Webster (bad dog).

Free Dictionary

MSN Encarta

Just another case of incorrect information supposedly backed up by an irrefutable source that a few people just seem to accept with blind faith around here. I am at a loss as to why.

Lloyd

First, purchased soil is not necessarily topsoil, which I agree is a questionable product and certainly open to discussion as to its value. Most bulk soil producers and even many that sell bagged products offer very acceptable garden planting mixes that provide all the necessary texture, drainage and mosture retention characteristics and organic matter that one needs to be able to grow a wide range of plants successfully. And even topsoil, defined however you like, can make a decent planting medium with appropriate amending. Isn't that what many of us start out with anyway?

And kimmsr, since you are so incredibly adamant about the need to never purchase soil, please answer this for me. A gardener has built 4, 4x8 raised beds they need to fill for THIS season's plantings, so are unwilling to wait for the time it takes the lasagna method to do its reputed magic. That's almost 5 cubic yards of material required. They garden in an urban area on a small property that is already landscaped. Assuming they are able to generate 1 cubic yard of organic matter (considerably more than the 5-10% typically recommended), where exactly does the other 4+ cubic yards of soil material come from? btw, to put this in a good perspective, that's about 3-4 pick-up loads of material, not including the OM.

Unless they excavate this sizeable amount from elsewhere in an already landscaped garden - which I believe anyone will admit is not a strong likelihood under most conditions - they are going to import it from somewhere else.

I have never said one must buy soil when there are other options but there are times when those options are very limited. To righteously deny that these situations ever exist is indeed close minded and indicates YOU have not thought this out logically.

Hey, maybe this is what is meant when one says one doesn't have to purchase topsoil?

:-)

Lloyd

Hi all I am usually just a lurker here and have learned a lot from you folks. But ya'll can get het up about things can't you?

gscheidle I am interested your raised beds. How tall/high are they? What are you intending to grow in them (flowers, veggies, herbs?) What kind of soil do you have? What did you do with last years beds, and how did that work for you?

As far as your question about where you dumped yard waste in previous years, I am a newbie and not up to the standards of the distinguised gardeners here on the board, but it sounds to me like you have been piling organic matter in one general place, not really attempting to compost but allowing organic matter to decompose naturally and thereby enriching the soil below it. So yes if it were me, I would possible add that soil to the beds. One question I would ask about that though was how weed infested is it? If it has a lot of weeds, you might want to make sure that soil goes on the bottom layer.

For future beds you might want to read more about composting and also check out the info on lasagna beds. Once you learn about it, you could choose the method you think would help you the most.

I agree with Pam and Llyod on this one. The idea that one would not have to haul in some topsoil to fill 4 4X8 raised beds is idiotic. Obtaining the materials that have been decomposing in the woods and adding it to the topsoil that is purchased would be a wonderful addition of organic material but as has been pointed out, trying to garden in compost alone is a never ending battle since the organic matter decomposes and is used up by the soil bacteria that you want in biologically active soil. I feel that there are certain posters on this and other forums that are rather dogmatic in their approach and you will see them often repeating the same thing over and over as if they think saying something enough times is going to convince someone of their point regardless if it is pointless.

Andrew, the stuff you've been piling up in the woods is wonderful stuff. If you're a newbie, have you considered planting directly into the ground until you have the soil you need? I've grown potatoes a few times, but never with much success. Someone told me that I'd have better luck if I didn't plant them in my highly amended beds, but dug a new bed instead. (That's advice for Maine, btw.)

I have robbed other parts of my yard for soil, refilling the areas that were robbed with compost or manure, but I do not have a landscaped, or even mowed, yard.

It's not a good idea to harvest forest duff, by the way (not that you were going to), because, by doing so, you can innocently wipe out a whole colony of lady slippers and dogtooth lilies like my next door neighbor here did.

This from the Encarta dictionary, "top layer of soil: the upper fertile layer of soil, from which plant roots take nutrients" maybe my Websters is more complete than yours, Lloyd. Think about what you are buying when you buy "topsoil", something that has, maybe, 5 percent organic matter, maybe. Why would anyone want to spend money on something that has so little organic matter when what their soil needs is a lot of organic matter. Why not spend your money on organic matter instead of more of the mineral component of soil.
As I have stated before there is no legal definition of what is sold as "topsoil" so it can be anything the seller wants if to be and some years back people around here were selling spent foundry sand as "topsoil", We have a company here that dredges the organic matter from the bottom of one of the lakes, mixes that with some sand and lime and sells it to people that sell that as "topsoil". Contractors often bring in a light gray sand, with no organic matter in it, and spread that as "topsoil" and it does not even look like "topsoil". I would venture that those that suggest people buy "topsoil" have in their minds loam and you cannot buy loam everywhere, because it is not everywhere and would be very expensive if one could buy loam.

Yes - use the stuff in the woods.

Yes - buy soil if you need it. Buying in bulk if you have access to a truck is better than in bags.

No - Don't listen to people who poo-poo your ideas. Many of us have had the need to buy soil at one time or another.

Every garden is different and everyone's needs are different.

Hijack....Hijack....Hijack. :-)

Val

"maybe my Websters is more complete than yours, Lloyd"

Maybe you are correct there Mr. Miller but for some reason I suspect not. I would speculate that it is merely another case of made up information with a reference to a legitimate organization thrown in to give it the appearance of credibility. But, I suppose it could also be part of the "good teacher" lesson plan. ROTFLMHO

Carry on.

Lloyd

The mineral components of soil is the skeleton of the soil. The can be no body without a skeleton. Although quite resistant compared to the organic matter, the mineral components decompose and add nutrients over time.

Soil science texts do not talk about top soil. Soil is divided into layers - A, B, C - and the classification is based on chemical and biological processes that are specific to each layer.

The link has an interesting part about ages of soil and related US geography.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Weathering

We have raised beds in our back yard and just added the last one. We buy a gardening mix from a dealer. Our dirt is clay and it is recommended by our county agents to do raised beds because it is more cost efficient. I do add home made compost to these beds. I suggest you take your compost and divide it among the beds and add a gardening mix as needed.

In amongst dictionary definitions which may have little if any bearing on real life and some other dubious personal opinions, I see NO answer to my question. I repeat, kimmsr, observing your strongly held contention that soil "never, ever" needs to be purchased and with regards to that situation I outlined, where does that 4+ cubic yard of soil material come from?

FWIW, loam is not all that hard to come by. It merely describes a type of soil that is equal parts clay, sand silt and organic matter. Many bulk soil suppliers across the country produce garden soil blends that come very close to this description. And it is not significantly more expensive than any other type of bulk soil product and can be quite a bit less expensive than some.

Andrew,

When I needed a quick raised bed, I went to the nursery and bought a couple of yards of soil to fill a box I made. It worked fine. I added some homemade compost and threw in handfuls of bone meal when I planted store bought tomatoes and everything thrived despite being defoliated by a hail storm.

I did the same with my sister when she put in some raised beds. The beds were made with 2x10 boards made into 4'x8' boxes. She ordered some 'organic soil' from her favorite landscape company and they brought in three truckloads of dirt to fill 12 beds. It worked famously. Her biggest problem was keeping deer and groundhogs out. It was a very productive year for her.

She now has a huge compost pile going, mainly oak leaves, and uses that to improve the soil.

It would be nice if we all had the time and resources to do it ourselves, but sometimes it's just not practical. The important thing is to get it going the best way possible, and if that means bringing in the soil, do it.

I would like to buy a MacKissic 10 horse chipper shredder to increase my compost generation and incorporate more wood. Somehow, it's considered 'organic' to run a beefy, gas powered chipper to make compost. Whatever. I just want the compost in the most efficient way, even if I have to spend $1500 for a mother chipper. It's more about getting it done, than it is about the exact way you do it.

a beefy, gas powered chipper that Tim the Toolman would love.

Nice chipper. Takes big branches and side branch stubs aren't going to be a problem. I'll have to keep an eye open for a nice used version of that one.

One of the features of the MacKissic that I have my eye on is the replaceable screens with different sized holes. Standard is the 1" screen. But you can go as small as 1/4" if you wanted to make wood dust.

That's my fantasy, run the yard waste through with the 1" screen, then re-chip it with leaves and grass mixed in with a 1/2 or 1/4" screen to make a somewhat woody mixture for a compost/mulch. Let that cook and put it on the beds in the fall.

Tim would approve of the MacKissic 12P as long as he could rewire it for more power. Unghh, unghh. More power.

O.K.
Here's what I did: One year (about 1999 or so) I wanted more stuff. Stuff for mulch, stuff to compost etc. I had already composted 250 bplb, but it wasn't enough and in years past I had coaxed various tree trimmer people to dumped their burdensome load(s) in my driveway, the first time my wife said "GREAT"! and she was happy and I spread the chips in her garden beds and all was fine with the world, the second time she said "great", but with a dull tone in her voice and all was so so in the world and the third time she said 'great' with every bit of disdain masked by her desire not to hurt a man-childs delicate psyche and the dark clouds were rolling in and so by the forth load (each load was on a bi-annual schedule)I had to find some where else to dump it without adding to her garden beds, so I dumped the full trailer load in Jaspers dog run and he loved it! because now he could see over the four foot tall fence whilst still sitting down. after two years that pile was two feet shorter and after one more year you couldn't tell it was ever there. So, the short answer to your need is bring in all the wood chips you could possibly handle and don't worry about too much carbon or PH or anything, it will rot down in a year or two, the worms and microbes will fix the PH and nitrogen issues and you will have the volume of material you need without you having to spend a penny or drive your truck/car/whatever to bring it home you might have to wheelbarrow it around, but you will be making good soil-less soil. (you should have seen the tomatoes I grew using this system) IMHO, composting is an art that uses scientific principles (and it works for me)
ialbtc

yes it is, don't listen to the dogma (unless you want to)or fear mongers or naysayers just read and learn and grow.
IALBTC

Here is a link that might be useful: the site is called ted and one of my current favorites

I would add the compost that has formed from the dumped leaves.

I made a bunch of new raised beds last year. I laid down cardboard over the sod, framed the beds in with 6 by 6 landscape timbers, and filled them up with finished compost. I did this in the spring and planted right away, and had a great season of veggies.

The beds did sink down some over the summer as I guess the compost settled, but I filled them back up last fall with grass clippings, leaves, and stuff I cleaned out of my hen house. I am eager to see how the beds do this year.

Jasper! We all loved Jasper!! Little white thing. Awful, awful cute.

I'm always a little sensitive about the soil business since a ton (several tons actually) was taken from this virgin property seven years ago, and sold to someone. We've owned the property for sixty-one years and my stupidity lost us some really valuable topsoil. Now I'm gardening on rock, stone and gravel. Because I know where soil comes from (someone else's land), I'm disinclined to buy it, which has me scrambling constantly to try to build the property back up with leaves, straw, seaweed, pumpkins and manure that I drag home from sea, farm, and dump. I was given 7 hydrangeas from a forum member two years ago and I barely had soil in which to plant them. Hence the mixed feelings.

Andrew,

Absolutely go out and purchase some good quality soil to fill those beds, in addition to any organic matter you can scrounge up. As was previously stated, the mineral component is the skeleton of the soil. While organic matter is important for buffer capacity, water holding, nutrition, structure, etc., it is still just a part of the whole soil system. You've got to remember that the organic fraction is continually lost through mineralization. When the majority of your soil is organic matter, this results in significant loss of soil volume annually. Thus, you must add significant amounts of organic matter annually. Filling your beds with good, purchased soil will provide a near permanent skeleton for your soil, to which you can add organic matter till your heart's content.

Another advantage to filling with purchased mineral soil is faster heating in the spring. Compared to organic matter, the mineral component has a higher heat conductivity that permits faster warming in the spring. Warmer soil earlier will allow earlier planting.

You may also be able to find good silt loam depending upon your location in PA. If you're lucky enough to find it, silt loam provides the greatest plant available water holding capacity of nearly all soil textural classes (maybe all I forget off-hand.) Be extremely picky with what you buy and check it out for yourself. Whatever you buy, you'll be stuck gardening in it unless you dig it out and replace it. Further, check out what you're buying before the fact. My sister bought "screened" soil with clumps of clay in it. Use the 'feel method' for determining soil texture to see for yourself what the texture is like. It takes some practice to calibrate your fingers, but becomes a handy skill once you get the hang of it.

Good luck, and update us on how you're doing.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Texture by Feel