A young bloom

mature bloom

new growth showing red thorns

stipules

first bloom on a rooted cutting

new growth with bud showing white petal base

I don't think it's Archduke Charles. It looks like some sort of tea rose given its large size but can't say more than that. It's very lovely.

Ingrid

No. It's a Tea Rose -- Not sure which. Something along the lines of 'Mrs. B.R. Cant,' maybe?

Below see Archduke Charles.

Jeri

This is actually very much what some blossoms look like in some mood; the blossoms are extremely variable, different in different depending on time of year, temp, season as well, but basically they start mostly a light pink with darker petals around the edges, as your photo shows, and gradually darken to an overall crimson color all the way to the centre. I have not been able to capture the effect with this camera, but here is another photo showing color of an aging bloom next to a younger one.

Perhaps 'Niles Cochet'? I'm just throwing out a guess....

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Niles Cochet' at HMF

Thanks Christopher, I should say both this and Mrs Cant (thanking Jeri for the suggestion) are interesting guesses. Cruising photos at HMF I see they both have that habit of darkening starting with the outer petals, with this showing a bit more contrast, and both are surely possibilities, though I am leaning to Niles Cochet at this moment.

If what I have is mostly likely NOT Archduke Charles -- as seems to be the consensus so far -- and Archduke Charles is really smaller than this, I might try to get a plant of him and observe them both together. I agree the foliage on this creature is tea like (that "eggshell finish"). But then its smell is so much more china than tea to my nose...

I vote tea also. The Archdukes I've had have a much smaller, less full flower. Young flowers are scrolled, have almost white petals in the center. They blush darker day by day to a deep crimson, much darker than the bloom pictured. But that is one gorgeous rose. I'd be happy to swap an Archduke for it :)

That AC photo looks EXACTLY like the blooms on the ones I've had before & the current plant I have now. All of the petals age to the dark red of the outer ones on the young bloom.

I REALLY like Archduke Charles -- and I like even a bit more one we found in the Gold Rush country.

"Orange Smith" looks like it might be an A.C. sport or seedling, with fewer petals. In my conditions, it's slightly superior, because it opens better. But the color change progression is the same.

Jeri

I hate when the messages post twice!

Jeri

{{!gwi}}

This post was edited by jerijen on Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 19:27

I say your rose looks like Mrs BR Cant. I grow Mrs BRC and like her a lot- just wish she could not be so large.
Jeri- your pics of 'orange smith' look very nice.

No, not Archduke Charles, which is a smaller, more restrained plant. I'm in SW Houston also, can you tell me where this is? I'd like to make a cutting to grow.

I was going to post a pic of mine, which is still a very small plant, but the 6" of rain that we got yesterday flooded it and took the flowers away. Also took 3 wood light poles that were lying on the edge of the side street by me away. No telling where they ended up!

Thanks all, for these experienced, helpful and conclusive identifications as tea rose, not archduke. It is indeed lovely and if it is Mrs BR Cant, not one I'd have gone for without seeing it in person.Thanks especially for the photos, jeri, so expertly capturing the character of these various changeable flowers.

I am ordering the archduke now, who is irresistible even in photos.

echoing, jeri, hate it when things post twice

This post was edited by Starmade on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 10:12

Yeah, my first thought also was "definitely not." My own A.C. is three years old, and though he is five feet tall already, his blooms just never look like that. I would have guessed Monsieur Tillier, but I don't actually grow it, so I don't know what it looks like in our area.

Here's a pic of Archduke Charles from February (the blooms today are already much smaller due to heat).

Brittie, Thanks for the lovely photo.

It is not M. Tillier. I have a young plant of M. Tillier and the color and flower form are not the same. M Tillier is more or less warm coral pink and has smaller flowers; this is cool pink aging to cool light crimson, a bit larger, and rather more elegant in flower form. (My M. Tillier is very young, and may gain in size and refinement with maturity; but this rose was elegant from the the first bloom on the first rooted cutting you can see in the photo above.)

Definitely a tea, and I would concur that Mrs. B.R. Cant is a likely candidate.

Ooo, Brittie, that's gorgeous! I have it on order and can't wait to get it now!

Beautiful picture, Brittie! I can't wait until my AD is that large!

Starmade, I just happened upon this old post, and am wondering if you ever decided on an ID for your not-Archduke Charles?

I ask because I feel that your no-ID pink Tea looks an awful lot like my no-ID pink Tea; lots of photos at my flickr page here.

It looks somewhat like 'Mrs. B. R. Cant', but it isn't. I also have MBRC, and they are similar, but not the same.

You described your rose as having a citrus scent. My rose also smells fruity, but I smell ripe pears, not citrus, but noses and smells are not at all consistent.

There are two pink Teas that I'd love to know more about, since they might be what I have... one rose is 'Marie Ducher', and the other (even more obscure) is 'Minnie Francis'. Minnie was born in Charleston, SC (which is where I live), but was named and introduced by a nursery in McAllen, TX in the early 1900's. She shows up in old nursery catalogues for Florida and Texas, and is listed as one of the best roses for FL in the 1905 Transactions of the Florida State Horticultural Soc.

Here is a not-great photo from the 1908 catalogue for Griffing's Nurseries in McAllen:

What do you think?

Virginia

Virginia, thanks for this. I have been thinking of the rose as "probably" Mrs. B.R. Cant as several people suggested; it is not far off the pictures at HMF. But I have not actually got a copy of the real one to compare it to as you do, and it looks very like yours as well. The smell varies shading into raspberry touched w. lemon at times, a little tea overlaid, and something a lot more grapefruity at others, more china like. Have not thought of pear in association with this range of scents, but will check for that. It is an amazing rose, somehow managing to look not unhappy despite being in substantial shade, a bit crowded by other things, and whacked back by the neighbors from their side of the chainlink fence. So it is unbelievably learning to grow towards my side (the shadier side) such a generous but thorny plant. But what is the difference between yours and Mrs Cant? Maybe I could find something that would prove it was one or the other.

Beautiful rose Virginia and Starmade! You are the world's best rose and plant sleuth Virginia! Best of luck with your ID!

starmade, there were several things that were different; I didn't write them down anywhere, but I'm pretty sure the foliage was different with MBRC having leaflets that are somewhat more "toothy", and perhaps less glossy. The fragrance was similar to my not-terribly-reliable nose. I have allergies, so I love any rose with a scent that I can actually detect. Both had a very nice fruity fragrance.

MBRC is supposed to be a strong grower, and I'm sure she will be. They are both still in pots, and my MBRC is a year or two younger than my NOID pink Tea... still, my impression is that MBRC is not as vigorous. MBRC got a bit of die-back when we had a long stretch of freezing temps in early January. The NOID Tea was one of the few roses that stayed green through the whole ordeal (which included 5" of snow that stuck around 4-5 days). It probably isn't fair to say that she is hardier than MBRC, because of the difference in maturity, but I would say that she's at least as hardy as 'Maman Cochet', another of the "hardier Teas".

My NOID Tea also blooms well in dappled shade. She blooms in flushes.

Thanks for checking in,

Virginia

My NOID also blooms in some shade, also in flushes, was noticeably and extremely vigorous from the moment the cutting was planted (though MBRC said to be a big and vigorous grower also), unbothered by frost (true of all my teas though not all equally willing to bloom in shade; however at the same time, the most shade tolerant roses I have are teas). I guess I should try to find a solidly identified MBRC for comparison.

My NOID Tea is similar enough to MBRC, that I have wondered if they might be closely related. I think MBRC is usually a warmer, more salmony pink, while NOID is generally a cooler pink, and her petals are usually noticeably veined.

Another rose I'm curious about is a foundling rose from Rose Petals Nursery called "Laurel Hill"; it was found in a Florida cemetery, and- wait for it- they describe it as looking similar to MBRC. The one photo certainly looks the part...

Virginia