IMHO....

The place to look for a truly universally adaptable rose is somewhere like the kordesii Explorers. Cold climate roses that can handle heat. It isn't where everybody wants to look, warm climate roses that can handle cold, because they almost always wimp out somewhere in a measly zone 6. So in general, I don't think the idea of universal roses is really tenable. Regional roses are a much more valid concept. Unfortunately for that idea, too many people want to define 'regional' as based on the USDA zones. Since roses (and other plants) behave differently depending on humidity/wetness as well as temperature, the part of the country is as important as the USDA zone.

So to answer the question, for this region, the Big Three are Explorers, rugosas and once blooming OGRs.

that's what I was thinking that it was more like, "yes, there are relatively foolproof older roses, by region".

(the magazine's statement still being misleading as it seems to me it's trying to say that many/most older roses are too hard to grow for the average gardener... it seems like they just need to know what older roses will do well in their zone...)

Polyanthas, hybrid musks, Portland roses and others can rebloom in the summer and are pretty hardy, at least down to zone 5 and sometimes zone 4.

Cecile Brunner is not as happy with my zone 4, but The Fairy, Excellenz von Shubert, Gartendirektor Otto Linne, even Clotilde Soupert have all done well, with our cold winters. It often depends on planting them on the south side of the house and keeping them protected, from the wind.

Therese Bugnet is a hybrid rugosa, developed in Canada by Georges Bugnet, in 1950. He also created Marie Bugnet (a smaller white rose) that is also very nice. I was planning to grow them together, but I think I need a new area...maybe fenced. The deer like Therese, more than I anticipated. Here's a link to an earlier GW article...scroll down to see some lovely pictures of both :)

Here is a link that might be useful: GW article on Therese and Marie Bugnet roses

To answer your question as succinctly as possible, Aimee, no. As mad_gallica suggested, any list like that is going to be highly location specific. It's not only climate, but which of the five major types of black spot are prevelant where you try to grow the rose. I grew over seventy different Buck roses in Newhall and MANY rusted and black spotted terribly, though they aren't known to have those issues. And, you know how little the black spot pressure is there. I grew several Mordens and only one was totally bullet proof there, Morden Blush. It grew there for quite a few years and never experienced any issues, even laughing at the intense heat. I've suggested it on forums several times only to be told how prone to black spot it is elsewhere. Morden Ruby had a lovely bloom in Newhall, and it rusted almost as wickedly as Paul Neyron and Wandrin' Wind.

You'd think by how marvelous they are around these parts, Icebergs would make that list, yet elsewhere they are MUST SPRAY roses. Therese Bugnet does grow in Old Orchard (or did for the years I had access to it there) under a huge crepe myrtle in half day sun. It spotted on the lower leaves but was otherwise healthy. That plant was also densely under planted with Osteospermum. The soil there drains almost like sand, by the way.

Rugosas grow marvelously in colder, wetter, more acidic places. Many are really terrible here because of the lack of chill, too-long growing season and alkalinity. While we CAN grow many Gallicas, Albas, Damasks and Centifolias, very few are actually GOOD here for the same reasons the Rugosas suffer. Once you've seen them grown well, nothing you can do will ever make them really acceptable here. Of course, the further north and inland you go, the more they are adaptable because you leave the intensity of heat and humidity, and pick up greater chill hours, shortening the growing season and getting closer to what they enjoy.

There isn't a "universal list", but more of an elastic continuum of climate type, modified by specific disease pressures and black spot races. Makes it fun, doesn't it? Kim

So, there isn't a "universal list," but why SHOULD there be?

Isn't it wonderful to travel, and be able to see roses you don't see where you live?

In fact, where I think we (rose lovers) really got into trouble when the idea that a rose was suitable EVERYWHERE came to be doctrine. It's just not so, and I'm perfectly happy with that. I can't grow Gallicas, Albas, and Damasks here, so I'll visit them elsewhere. I CAN grow things that those in colder climates cannot. Yippee for me. It's all good.

As for "fussy" roses -- it depends upon where you are located. My Teas, Chinas, and Noisettes are care-free. They need very little from me. OTOH, those European once-bloomers have real disease problems here. Many of the Hybrid Perpetuals do, too. I don't see that as a problem anymore. I just don't grow them. For someone else, in a different climate, THEY are "easy-care." Yippee for them.

Sticking to the sorts of roses that are "easy" for my climate, I have my choice of more roses than I can possibly ever grow. I have no reason to complain.

Jeri

In my No Cal mediterranean climate (Hot DRY summers, unlike the hot & humid US South, cool WET Winters - almost no frost - zone 9) teas, chinas, noisettes, & hybrid musks, & most polyanthas love it, no spray. I agree with Jeri - there are WAY more roses I would like to grow of these types than I can fit in my garden.

Once blooming European OGRs, forget it - we don't get cold enough in the Winter. Most modern HTs are so disease prone that I wouldn't think of trying to grow them.

It is a real shame that "generic" rose articles such as the one you site keep on promulgating misinformation - one areas "foolproof" rose is another areas nightmare rose. The ARS, of course, would be the best organization to gather and distribute information on which roses are "foolproof" in what areas, but they seem to be clinging to the canard that all roses can do well everywhere.

So, given that the ARS did not do what it should have to promote its stated goal of getting more folks to grow roses, it is good that the Earth Kind research has started, where they really are trying to identify "foolproof" roses - BUT ONLY IN THE AREA WHERE THE RESEARCH IS DONE. I am hoping that the Earth Kind research will be done in more & more areas in the future, and so we will get more actual information about which roses LOVE which climates. Meanwhile, your best bet is to ask questions on this forum - folks will always be happy to tell you which kinds of roses grow well for them in their specific areas.

Jackie

Jackie's right. The Earthkind program is a great thing ... but there are Earthkind roses that are so designated mostly because they don't blackspot ... BUT they rust and/or mildew like mad. So they ain't "Earthkind" where EYE live.

Jeri

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised to see the magazine doing a feature on plants for clay, nd including heat tolerance zones,... because typically that type of information isn't included.

But I'd love to see them do an article on "what roses are relatively easy for what places". I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy it, find it useful. ( again, it doesn't matter so much to me as my yard is pretty full... but I'd love to see more old rose converts...)

But, Aimee -- WE can write that article!

We have people here from most parts of the U.S. All it takes is for us to start making our lists and descriptions, and put them together!

Jeri

Yup, this IS that article. Remember, too, there are areas where OGRs aren't suitable. Lyn lives in the mountains where it's hotter than blue blazes in the summer and snows in the winter. Her spring flush is taken out by their version of Japanese Beetles, so she needs repeat bloomers which take the heat and cold. The petals need substance so they last more than an hour in the intense heat and sun, leaving most OGRs out due to their papery petal substances. The beetles get the once flowering types so they aren't suitable. What's worked best for her, in all respects, are more modern HTs. They are cold hardy enough; heat tolerant enough; repeat flowering so she gets to enjoy some color and fragrant and many have sufficient petal substance to withstand her 'heat sump' garden.

Teas aren't suitable for her because she needs to be able to prune harder to prevent snow damage. Teas and Chinas don't like hard pruning every year. HPs, like the Teas, have papery petals and many don't flower "repeatedly", but have a second flowering later in summer. Bourbons have papery petals, too, so when they flower, they crisp immediately.

OGRs are wonderful, but even the best aren't suitable for everywhere. Kim

I'D LOVE for you guys to do that. Ie, to actually make a list of what you agree works well in each climate. Please do. Because again, I think a good part of any success I've had has been asking questions on this forum about whether XYZ rose would work for me.

It'd be really nice to ask for serious, thoughtful, suggestions along those lines from long time rosarians in various parts of the country, too. (ie the ones who grow OGRs).
I always found it frustrating that when I made my first rose order, I ordered an Alba. Because NONE of the sites I looked at (except this one pretty much) said ANYTHING about Alba's and many other once-blooming rose classes not doing well in areas without strong winter chill. I had no idea! Rose books, rose websites and rose selling nurseries only talk about the cold tolerance,... not cold requirements or heat tolerance.

If you folks were able to compile something like this (ie a list of the most foolproof based on climate...) it could be submitted to magazines, too (with credit to contributors of course) if people agreed. I'd just love to see more people than those on this forum finding out more about it. (or at the very least I'd love to host a list on my website so it doesn't get buried in the forum somewhere.)

Aimee, I did the same thing.
I ordered Rosa Mundi and Mme. Isaac Pereire. Two worse choices for my conditions could not have been selected.

Even so, I learned from them.

Then, Bob Edberg told me to quit fooling around, and specialize in Teas, Chinas and Noisettes. Did I listen? Nope. I went on to plant roses like Henri Martin, Crested Moss, Belle Isis, and others. Eventually, I DID learn that Bob was right, and we began to plant things that did well here, and it's all worked out, but from every mistake, we learned.

Nevertheless, you're on the right track.

If y'all are interested, I'll take the job of recording what works well, WHERE.

Send me private emails. I'll need your location, of course. If you want your name and/or email address included, give me that, too. Or, give me that, but ask that it not be published.

We can concentrate on Old Roses, but if other sorts of roses suit your area, we should record that, too.

Make your subject line, oh, EASY-CARE ROSES.
Be as detailed or as broad, wordy or not, as it suits you. We'll let 'er run for a while, and then put it together.

I think it'd be interesting, and helpful.

I think we can get it published in the Heritage Roses Group "Rose Letter," and up on the HRG website. It's just the sort of thing Heritage Roses Group was formed to do.

Jeri

Jeri...

As you know, I wanted to dedicate a whole Ezine on HMF to found roses, but we didn't get enough of a response, but it's still something I would like to do someday.

I'd be more than willing to dedicate an Ezine on HMF for regional Easy-Care-Roses, but I am not a writer, so with your help we can put together a whole Ezine dedicated to this issue. I'll add links to the rose pages in the HMF database so that people can see the roses mentioned and I'll cross link in the REFERENCES back to the Ezine articles so it will be easier for site users to get a broader picture by reading the articles.

Kim described what I have observed in my climate exceptionally well, so I don't need to go into that in this post.

The most important thing I think I did was to observe what plant characteristics made a rose successful in this garden. Then I checked with Kim about what ogrs had those characteristics. As you can tell from his post, ogrs are not likely to succeed in this garden. The major plant characteristic that I have to have is the thick petal substance. It doesn't matter what the bloom form is, but if a rose has that characteristic, it will work here. Of course, the rose has to have repeat bloom because I have to take out the first flush of roses due to the dang bug.

So when you send your information to Jeri, keep plant characteristics as well as disease resistance in mind when you suggest a rose that works in your region/climate. Knowing what makes the plant successful does help make you make better choices as to what rose will work in your garden.

Smiles,
Lyn

Jeri, that would be lovely! I'd still like to see it get some mainstream magazine light, just to reach a different audience.

Lyn and Kim's suggestions of mentioning why it does well would be really helpful... (

Jeri, do you or others who are knowledgeable... is there a way for you contact OGR-friendly rosarians in various regions who may or may not be posting on this forum...? Like send out an email or a snail mail letter requesting their input...? Maybe with a form suggesting the type of input you'd want back from them...?

Yes. I have some avenues. But you'll have to be patient. Some of this will take time.

Jeri

It's an interesting idea, but it's also prone to be rather "quirky". I remember my grandmother's home on Homewood, Alabama, outside Birmingham. The three roses in her garden which never required any attention were Cecile Brunner, Silver Moon and Talisman. I know Talisman HAD to have suffered black spot issues there, but she never complained about it nor do I ever remember her taking any measures to combat it. She planted, she "tended", watered and fertilized, but never used anything poisonous in her garden. Kim

This is a good thread, IMHO.There is so much false information about roses that circulates.It's infuriating that so -called "experts" try to convince unexperienced gardeners that the only roses that are easy-or worthwhile- to grow are those boring "Knockouts" (I did get two of these, the pink and the double pink, sort of as an experiment,but I'm sort of ashamed of myself...). Mine is such a "desperado" garden-no water except what I can bring out there, poor soil, and it's far from my home, too, so it's impossible to spoil my plants.Yet I do manage to grow roses really rather well!!! I don't yet have enough experience to be able to clearly state what works and what doesn't; I know that rugosas DON'T work,for example, but have yet to try the old once-bloomers. I love the way Gallicas look ,but am hesitant to try them,however eventually I probably will, just to see,probably choosing one that is offered extensively here in Italy. And then, garden "experts" who say stuff like "the delicate tea roses can't tolerate drought"...INFURIATING!!! Sure, teas will be "delicate" in a cool or cold,moist climate,but here in hot, dry Italy they really give the impression that they are very strong!I had some planted in absolutely shamefully bad soil,and the plants still did well, though they didn't repeat much.(I moved them hoping to get better blooming with better soil). They really seem to tolerate total neglect rather well! regards, bart

yeah, even in the UK, our soil and climate differences count for quite a bit. I live in east anglia - the dryest part of the UK (classed as semi-arid, we get so little rain) but all over the fens we have deep silty but fast-draining soil. Amazingly constant winds, even 50 miles inland (absolutely flat, no tree cover, sounds like a desert - and often feels like one) means many stiffer brittle roses, especially climbing HTs, are at risk of snapping and tender petals just burn away. Our easiest care roses, by a long, long way, are the pimpinellifolias and wichurana ramblers - completely fool-proof....a different kettle of fish in the rainy north-west though.

Hi Bart! There IS a lot of mis information around and as much partial information. Research has shown 15 different "populations" of black spot world wide...so far. Each one is different enough that a rose resistant to one, may or may not be resistant to any of the others. Very few roses have multiple resistances. Knock Out has been demonstrated to be resistant to more of the US populations or types, strains, families, whatever you want to call them, than any other rose because it is the first rose to have been deliberately exposed to all five of them then selected for that resistance. I am not aware of any other roses to have been bred anywhere in the world using this deliberate exposure to the different strains of black spot. Not because no one cares, but because there has yet to be the possibility to expose them to the varying types without physically collecting infected foliage then deliberately exposing seedlings to them. That's what Bill Radler, Knock Out's creator, did. There are efforts under way to create the ability to submit seedlings for testing along these lines, but funding is scarce. So, if you have money you want to donate toward that goal, please let it be known. I can direct you to the right people! Even with this deliberate exposure, even Knock Outs aren't perfect, but they have been demonstrated to be the most resistant to the most number of American black spot types of any rose on the market. Notice the word "resistant", not "immune". They will spot under adverse conditions, but they spot less, retaining more of their foliage and flower more in more American climates than any other roses. Of course, your mileage may vary in individual situations, but they are the closest to the "universal" rose for the US of anything bred to date.

The entire bottom line of this thread is, the right rose in the right place can be as trouble free as possible. All of us have our 'war stories' about trying to push zones, grow unsuitable types in the wrong climates, the wrong types in unsuitable culture styles, etc. IMHO, it goes to show that just because something might be able to be done, it doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. I CAN grow Gallicas here, but they won't flower well (if at all) and they will never be as disease resistant here as they will be in a shorter growing season with a harsher, longer winter. I CAN grow hybrid Rugosas such as Conrad F. Meyer, Rose a Parfum de l'Hay, etc., but they WILL be diseased, they will NEVER approach what they can be in the right environments and they will eventually shrink back to nothing. In both cases, the only hopes I have of pushing them to approach what they should be is to use high levels of fungicides. Again, the right rose (or type) in the right climate, using the right culture style. Kim

O, Kim, how I wish I did have money to spend on donating to altruistic causes, but my own garden is such an expensive "charitable cause", I'm afraid I'M the one who's in need of donations!But thanks for the thorough explanation. It's very interesting! bart

I have these bands in pots and water them with alkaline water (pH of 8).

1) In green MiracleGro potting soil (pH of 6.5): Crimson glory came down with mildew, Scentsational mini came down with blackspot, Norwich Sweetheart mini also with blackspot.

2) In neutral Organic MiracleGro potting soil (pH of 7): no diseases on: Lynnie, Annie L. M., Marie Pavie, Marchesa Bocella, Comte de Chambord, Basyes Blueberry (lost most leaves due the frosts here), Mirandy is chlorotic and wimpy. The first 4 listed are super-healthy and vigorous.

3) In alkaline limestone soil in the ground: Paul Neyron -no diseases until I made the soil more acidic with sulfur and acidified the water.

4) The other seven, mostly roses with French origin: Sweet Promise, Bolero, Nahema, Firefighter, Sonia Rykiel, Frederic Mistral, and Austin Crown Princess Mag. I'll report them once planted in alkaline clay soil. So far these Austins realy like my soil with zero diseases for their 2nd year: Radio Times, Mary Magdalene, Lady Emma Hamilton, Christopher Marlow, Pat Austin, and Wise Portia. I killed Wise Portia this winter when I watered it with left-over acid water meant for my azaleas and rhododrendrons - no regrets, since I prefer Young Lycidas. Does Young Lycidas like alkaline heavy clay soil? Thanks for any info.

Comte de Chambord is easy too, zero diseases. Love Ya Dad and Blue Mist minis are healthy in neutral potting soil. Anita (Cementery Roses) reported that roses are healthier when the soil is more alkaline. Some of the older roses tolerate alkaline soil better than the ones with German names (has multiflora or rugosa heritage).

Wise Portia was green to the tip late February, until I watered it with acidic water. All the stems turned black with rose-canker. Radio Times does great with alkaline water, it has at least 2 dozen buds now.

In the article mentioned in the beginning of this post, I understood that some hybrids in the context of OGR meant Hybrid Perpetuals which precede the Hybrid Teas and are therefore considered OGR.

As a group, those HP are very disease prone, throw out octopussy arms, and hardly repeat, so they are often really only grown by dedicated rosarians.

Notice I said "as a group." Many, grown in the right places are healthy enough that they are not too hard to grow.

That said, I love this post because you are talking about compiling regional rose ifo --- That is the most needed rose information of all, I believe. GO for it!!!

The information from Kim about Lyn's garden really helped me because I have extreme seasons also, and need to find roses hardy enough, but with blossoms that will stand the sun and heat-- I was beginning to think petal thickness was an issue, glad to have it confirmed and to use that info also in choosing my roses.

Thanks everyone!
Erin

OK -- I have sent a note to the current Editor of the HRG "Rose Letter" -- requesting space in his next issue for a short article requesting folks' lists of "Foolproof" roses for THEIR climate.

Hopefully, he will have space.

Assuming that he does, I think we would want to ask respondants to include the Region, USDA Climate Zone, City/State, and whether or not they spray.

Anything else????

I should also note that the responses should start HERE.
But they should be emailed directly to me. My personal email address (remove the spaces) is:

heritage roses at-sign gmail dot com

I'll be waiting to hear from y'all ... :-)

Jeri