Sorry Jim, but David Austin IS one of the greats. He has done more for bringing back the form and fragrance of OGRs than anyone else. It was his love of the OGRs that inspired him to breed the romantic aspects of roses from the past while re-introducing the people to what "real" roses look like (and smell like). Plus he bred in a little attribute called remontancy, so now we can have our OGRs and rebloom too.

I was afraid of roses because of their diva reputation, esp. here in the north. I started with an "easy" and "foolproof" Canadian Explorer. This encouraged me to branch out and try other roses, and luckily I read somewhere along the way that DAs are hardy in zone 5. I tried one and was knocked off my socks. Since then, not only have I collected every DA I can get my hands on, but I also became interested in real OGRs and have began growing gallicas, albas, bourbons, centifolias, and hybrid perpetuals. If not for learning about the OGR form through DAs, I may not have become aware of the attributes of antique roses.

I worship Mr. Austin. I think the Queen should knight him. If he ever visited my garden, I would bow down and kiss his feet. He is my hero.

I am in zone 5, and I don't see why you have so much trouble growing them compared to me. Amend a bed properly, choose a few of the hardier ones, buy decent bareroots from a good source, plant the bud union 6" deep, mulch them heavily, water them well the first year, and I honestly don't see how they could possibly perform poorly for you. Then you won't be jealous.

Maybe we should ask for a new forum, "David Austin's English Roses". (he he)

BTW, Jim, I told you I'd try a Kordes, and I have the bareroot Alchymist sitting as we speak in my garage soaking in a bucket of water to be planted tomorrow. I thought we had a deal that you would try another DA if I tried a Kordes.

I came on this forum less than a year ago, almost completely ignorant, (though I've been smitten for years since first hearing of and seeing some OGRs). Alas, my life had been spent in apartments, no scope for gardening. Now, in my retirement, I have the opportunity to actually garden, and have bought and potted up my very first OGRs, after asking numerous naive questions and probably boring everyone to death - and with only one or two exceptions, I have been treated with great kindness and courtesy by people on this forum. They have been so helpful that I have progressed from someone who grew a piece of Dr, Huey rootstock - thinking I had a serendipitous Old Rose - to a devotee with Devoniensis, Mme. Antoine Mari, and Nigrette, plus an addiction to reading the Vintage Gardens rose catalog.
I don't really care about the finer points of who or what truly belongs on this forum - I'm just so very glad it exists and has such kind and knowledgeable posters, who opened such wonderful doors for me.
Laura

Jim said:

"To single out one hybridizer over all others is an insult to all of them. And Mr. Austin can hardly be called one of the great ones. What about Harkness, McGredy, Meilland, Poulsen and of course my favorite Kordes who a number of people have called Wilhelm one of the greatest of them all. And little known on this forum."

That's really true. Maybe if the Austins didn't receive as much press as they have today, they wouldn't have become popular.

On the other hand, liking a particular type of rose is a personal taste.

I've tried growing a delbard rose and a kordes rose. Neither of them appeal to me much because my ideal rose should have the following ingredients:

#1) Strong Fragrance
#2) Cupped shape with intertwine petals
#3) Good remotantcy.
#4) Good name.
#5) Delicate beauty

I can tolerate the disease issue as long as the above requirements are met.

I also don't like Hybrid tea roses that have pointy flower heads. Those type of blooms never appeal to me, and my mother used to grow plenty of them in our old house.

Marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing is everything. Mr. Austin knows how to market, market, market, market. Can you say that very fast 25 times without wondering how marketing works or why it works.

Ahhh -- Patricia, you are a woman after my own heart.

If you know HOW to market goods, you can see marketing very clearly. Not that it is a bad thing, marketing -- but we should know it when we see it.

Still, one noted U.S. hybridizer said something I have treasured:
He said that Ralph Moore, and David Austin freed other hybridizers to pursue forms other than the high-centered (Or pointy, as Jimmy says) Hybrid Tea bloom.

I think that's true, and we can thank Mr. Austin for his contribution to that, if we note nothing else.

Jeri

Jeri, your comment about modern hybridizers getting many seedlings with an old rose look and discarding them was very interesting and completely new information for me. Just out of curiosity I researched the eight modern roses I have to ascertain their ancestry. On two there was no information, but the remainder, including Julia Child (rosa soulieana), had old or wild roses in their ancestry. I was actually rather surprised, and also very pleased that my instincts led me in that direction.

I hope that Jim will be happy to know that my latest purchase consisted of old garden roses only, including a moss rose. I have one already (Alfred de Dalmas) which is doing surprisingly well in my hot and dry climate. It's fun sometimes to push the envelope and experiment with rose types that may not be thought of as working well in a particular climate zone. How else can you learn?

Ingrid

Jeri, your comment about modern hybridizers getting many seedlings with an old rose look and discarding them was very interesting and completely new information for me.

*** Surprised me, as well.
But I assure you, it came from the horse's mouth.
:-)

Jeri

Oh me!

My main gripe is that the heading for this forum specifically says AUSTIN to the exclusion of all the rest of the famous or infamous hybridizers. Why not change it to "The Antique Forum: A discussion of Classic roses". Then you can include any rose that you regard as classic.

Now I'm hardly jealous as there is a world of roses out there including many quartered blooms that are fragrant and repeat. Such as Jacques Cartier. Others as well.

I have a rose that repeats all the time, Elmshorn. I must admit by the end of summer it has become boring. As with the world of flowers few of them endlessly repeat and all the better as there is a continuous display of different flowers and foliage. Something to look forward to.

But that is just me and a recent change in how I look at roses. I've even started planting perennials amidst my rose beds. Horrors!

Well Jim, why didn't you just say so in your original post. Got a fix for you. Just put a piece of tape on your computer monitor over the word "Austin" and if you like you can write on the tape the name of any hybridizer you like. Just kidding but we do get wrapped around the axle so to speak about some of the most trifle issues and overlook the important things. Rather than dwell on what is wrong with the forum, why not think about what is right with it and how fortunate we are to have a place to gather with all our rosy friends around the world and discuss our passion.

Who CARES if some other roses get discussed here?!!!! Why so rigid? This is supposed to be fun and informational, not a courtroom.

Jim, I'll bet you're sitting back and laughing your head off, aren't you. I don't think you're a grouchy old man. I think you have a sense of humor and just wanted to stir things up a little.

Sandy

Can't we agree that the "spirit of the law" is what counts. Serious rose growers know and understand the ARS definition of OGR. That doesn't mean it is all they know, grow, or want to talk about. 75% of my roses are OGR; the rest are whatever appeals to me--including Buck's Serendipity, of which I am quite fond!

I hate to say it, but like Hillary, I have misspoken. I up and moved the Comtesse de Rocquigney from Slovenia to Slovakia. I went back to helpmefind, and there she was at the castle in Slovenia. Which is two countries west. Granted, it can't be any further than driving across Montana. Though I didn't have to dodge any bullets in Bosnia getting this rose back to Slovenia. Say Jim, I think you ought to get a copy of Long John Silver. I remember you love Baltimore Belle. LJS is similar, but scented. I found it here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Northland Rosarium

a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose

It seems to me that as time goes by, all kinds of roses will be with us. Some fussy and some unfussy. Some of the newest look like the oldest and so on. This forum has been helpful to me because pruning is different for some of the oldest roses and that information was hard to get out of most rose books. Certainly the local nursery staff couldn't help with advice on pruning my Bourbons or telling me which once bloomers would flower in my area and which would not. I think that as time goes on however, we will see more and more new plants that look and act like old ones and so the dividing line gets fuzzier. If you think about it, a big rambling climber is very different than an old polyantha or a smaller shrubby HP. All of these are different in character than a weepy noisette and so on. I really think they are so diverse anyway despite the dates of introduction or discovery and classification.

Austins... Jim, I live in a colder, drier and windier place than you. My soil isn't especially great, either. Yet, I have several Austin roses that do just fine here. I have some bushes over 15 years old. You must keep experimenting. For one, I would suggest tossing the 'grafted is superior' idea and try some own-rooted plants.

I will never call them 'English Roses.' Austin's hyped marketing and branding taints his collection, IMO. They are simply roses. No doubt Vibert was the Austin of his day. Many of Vibert's roses are lost to history. The same will happen to most of the Austins.

And isn't 'Constance Spry' getting up there? She's practically a dowager rose.

Miss J. Hunter Dunn, Miss J. Hunter Dunn,
Furnish'd and burnish'd by Aldershot sun,
What strenuous singles we played after tea,
We in the tournament - you against me!

Love-thirty, love-forty, oh! weakness of joy,
The speed of a swallow, the grace of a boy,
With carefullest carelessness, gaily you won,
I am weak from your loveliness, Joan Hunter Dunn.

...

Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn,
I can hear from the car park the dance has begun,
Oh! Surrey twilight! importunate band!
Oh! strongly adorable tennis-girl's hand!

Around us are Rovers and Austins afar,
Above us the intimate roof of the car,
And here on my right is the girl of my choice,
With the tilt of her nose and the chime of her voice.

And the scent of her wrap, and the words never said,
And the ominous, ominous dancing ahead.
We sat in the car park till twenty to one
And now I'm engaged to Miss Joan Hunter Dunn.

Sadly, the real Joan Hunter Dunn passed away yesterday at the age of 92.

'She is one of the heroines of modern English poetry. Anyone who has ever heard of John Betjeman has also heard of Joan Hunter Dunn, paragon of all that was desirable about English suburban girls in those distant days of wartime, warm beer and innate sexual reserve.'

Poor, poor Colonials, who will never in their wildest dreams understand the meaning and beauty of an 'English Rose' :)

Jim, get something in the ground and growing - we do not have the luxury of years, just the 'ominous, ominous dancing ahead. . .'

Best wishes
Jon

Jon,
From Mrs Dudley Cross to Cornelia to Nur Mahal to Heritage, this Colonial understands the meaning and beauty of an "English Rose" in all their shapes, forms, and vintage.

Randy
:-)

jon in wessex - I LOVE that! It calls up the wonderful atmosphere of so many of those English novels (and mysteries, too) that I read and loved in my youth. Sunny, golden days, tea on the lawn, girls in white dresses, and young men in flannels....
Thank you for the pleasure.
Laura

Jon---I'm so glad you checked in----You are always a welcome treat for me.

Florence

My two bits, or two petals, if you like:
Although I appreciate Mr. Austins' reintroducing the cupped shape rose in a big way, this is an antique style of rose blossom, bred from a modern genetic lineage. Perhaps this marks a fine line to newcomers to the Genus Rosa, but it is of great importance, and fascination to those of us who love genetic lineages, their nomenclature and classification.
Most of Mr.Austins' roses, belong to a modern class of rose called Shrub, and I would prefer that those be included in the modern rose site, along with all Hybrid Tea roses, as that class defines where modern roses began, even at the distant year of 1867. Mr. Austin does occasionally breed something of more interest ( to me), including a Hybrid Spinosissima, that by its lineage would belong here. But how would a blessed newcomer know of such things, except by trial and error? I'm pretty much o.k with the site being as it is, and I am very grateful that it is a free website.

For my own self, I am striving with being as gentle as a rose petal when championing the Old Garden Roses I love best, in deference to the right every soul has to have their own preferences. Eventually, by posting here newcomers would know that there is no official definition for "Antique Rose" and that Old Garden Rose is a distinct group which the A.R.S. defines (paraphrase) as including all rose cultivars that belong to garden rose classes that existed prior to 1867.

Lux.

Nice, Lux . . .

ARS's definition is important to the world of Rose Shows.
When most of us speak of "Antique" roses, we do tend to be more inclusive.
Sometimes we DO bristle a bit when Mr. Austins Roses (nice as they are) are included with the Old Roses.
It's not that we dislike 'em.
I think it's that the Old Roses have a piece of our hearts that his do not fill.

Jeri

Jim, you've done good. You have smoked out Jon of Wessex with a great spring poem. Beats staring at another David Austin rose, yep.
I thought really he had run off to Monticello, it's been so long since he turned up around here.
I'm about to go mad. 40 degrees for a high today. It is 21 days, four hours and 51 minutes until the May 10th snowstorm is over and life begins.
I have painted the whole living room this winter and actually gotten my taxes done on time.
Alfred Colomb is about to bloom in its pot but that's not good enough.
There is another snow storm predicted for tomorrow but I have told it to go away.
We are cautiously optimistic that there's enough snow in the mountains this year to flood our local queen in the mansion down by the river. There's a new beaver dam,too, which should offer impetus.

Thanks for the poem, Jon, really appreciated it.
Jim, no problem at all if you want to call this forum "Classic Roses". I have learned from reading here that Austin roses are not going to be a good bet for a no spray garden in the humid South, and I also learned of a lot of great roses that are likely to do well here. Thanks to all you, I have some wonderful roses budding out even as we speak, including Westerland and Martha Gonzales, (no, I have no idea if W. is considered antique or modern- but I understand the Chinas are antiques). W/o your all's guidance, I would not have about 20 roses outside because I would have given up. So, thanks again to all of you. Brandy

W/o your all's guidance, I would not have about 20 roses outside because I would have given up. So, thanks again to all of you. Brandy

*** Now, THERE!
See!? That's the real bottom line!
Good for you, Brandy!

Jeri

Jon, I loved your poem. I found John Betjeman reading it. Very enjoyable! Thanks for posting it.
Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: Go here to listen.

We have a garden tour sponsored by our little hamlet which is coming to our garden at the end of June. Lo and behold it has sparked in me a new found energy to tackle the many chores of growing roses. I actuallly entered the tangle of 4 inter grown rugosas and emerged nearly unscathed. Removed a mountain of dead stuff and now can even discern separate roses. Discovered a very tall rose with arching canes that is amongst Frau Dagmar. Possibly a wild rose that might have come from the wild patch next.

It rurther seems the initial wrath at my post from Austin devotees has passed and those sort of agreeing with me have emerged.

Ah yes Jon, I'm going to enjoy my extra effort especially the two roses I planted in the same hole. Gad! How did I do that! But when I began looking for Cerise Bouquet or Sir Thomas L. I found them growing together. Now how can anyone take me seriously!

But it has been fun.

From Jim:
"To single out one hybridizer over all others is an insult to all of them. "

Ironically this doesn't stop you from singling out David Austin as the target of your ire. Perhaps thats what some of us take exception to. Why not include the breeders of all the "reproduction" roses, as they all share traits with David Austin's work?

The inclusion of Austin roses in the heading of this Forum was grandfathered in from a time before others like Meilland were doing similar work, otherwise the term may have been more general, or perhaps the "reproduction" roses would have been included in the general Roses Forum. Perhaps rather than complaining about it in public posts, you could suggest the change to the Webmaster. I may not like your approach to the problem, but I certainly agree that the wording of the forum title could use review.

This is better than Yankees/Red Sox and Mets/Phillies (and less expensive)! Pass the popcorn!

Hee Hee . . .
Tune in For The Latest Episode!

Jeri

Can I mention that I love Robert Cappuci here and not risk being banned. I expect there are few, if any, on the "regular rose forum" who know about the Barni roses, but these old garden rosers know and I bet 90% of them would agree, if they had this rose, of its superiority over most of Austin roses any place, save California. Who was it that said, "Those danged Californians.." You're next, Paul, bash away. :)

Posted by rosysunnygirl: "Now, we don't always get it right (everyone is still learning something), but I don't think anyone can say honestly that we're not a generous and gracious bunch -- even us Yankees!"

Yankees!!!!!!!!......Yankees here?......Oh my Gawd I didn't know they was Yankees here!!!!!!........:)

Paul From Alabama...

P.S. I sure enjoy reading this forum,,,,,I've learned from it, laughed myself silly at it sometimes and a time or two its even touched my heart some of the sentiments expressed here.....I spent most of the day today piddling with my roses of various kinds: 'Mme. Alfred Carrie', 'Sombreuil' s, 'Lamarques' and 'Zephirine Drouhins'...Can't begin to tell you how much pleasure and satisfaction planting, taking care of and then sitting back and enjoying those roses brings me, though I know most you know what I mean....And in large measure a good bit of any sucess I've had has been from what I've learned from the folks in this forum and others.....So whatever you folks decide on as far as what roses are or ain't supposed to be included here I sure nuff what to thank you for what you've included so far........

Paul Still From Alabama

Can't you just skip the Austin posts? Who cares. There are alot of things that I'm not interested in that I just skip. Is it really so very important? The antique forum lists Austins as part of it. I agree they are not antiques. There is still an antique preference here. As to newbies: What would we do without them? I was once a newbie. We need new people. I don't care if they ask the right questions or not. They are valid.

I didn't even get around to mentioning the fact that David A. appropriated the term English roses for his output. Now that takes a lot of gall. Hold the phone, I'm sure he's a nice guy and probably someone else thought it would be a neat marketing idea to tag them "English".

Nor is he the first breeder to come up with old looking modern repeaters. Take Kordes Magenta, a truly beautiful and very fragrant rose. Introduced in 1954. But a real dog to grow and Kordes didn't continue with that line of crosses. Concentrating instead on roses with all types of flowers and other traits such as hardiness, disease resistance, vigor, etc.

Ire gets it. I'm truly annoyed at the fever pitch generated by his look alike output. How can he tell one rose from another and did he ever breed a rose he didn't like or does he just introduce them as is. With no testing?

Whew!

Mendocino rose - Perfectly put.

These Pauls have a point. Cranky Yankees we may be, but never dull. Mr. Paul (Prospero) is correct. I've been hanging here since at least 1998 and it always did say antiques, Austins, and old garden roses. It's got the same copy of rosa mundi on the top, though I can't recall the last time anybody talked about her. A question: if the rose web's gonna give free advertising to a rose breeder, why not give it to one that hangs around here? "Antiques, Bardens, and Old Garden Roses." As one who once argued with Paul Barden, that after all, they never graft lilacs, so why graft roses, I have to say I was wrong. I was reading this old garden book from the 50's when it said, "It is common to graft lilacs to privet." So, that never occurred around here as nobody ever bought any, just went and begged some suckers from the neighbors. Boy, were we provincial. Now, Paul Barden is surprisingly modest. Otherwise, he would realize how much influence he actually has, and what a great rose teacher he has been to many. For everything we are saying is expressed in a much better way on his own website.

Here is a link that might be useful: Paul's Austin Discussion

Most must think I'm a complete nut going on and on about Austin's.

But it's just that I have come to realize that Kordes roses are truly great and so unavailable in this country. Here we have a breeder who's output is acclaimed around the world. One who over his long life was truly innovative using many species roses to get hardiness and toughness. Yet his roses have been ignored and a comparative newcomer to roses is proclaimed to the housetops.

No fault of rose growers here. How could they know of K's when they can't get them?

I've asked before on GW why that was so. Paul Z. commented the most about that fact saying it had something to do with a contract between K and J&P that restricted the distribution of K's to others. Does anyone know anything about that?

Meanwhile it is encouraging reading the thread about what is your favorite K on the Rose site that their are those like me who have discovered them. There is a beautiful pic of Frulingsduft there. Another one I need to get.

Then in closing its' not as if I haven't tried Austins. I planted 9 in the past few years and all are dead. Partly my fault and partly my soil and climate. Practically no one grows roses here. Passing a farmer plowing his fields today I was struck by the brown/tan color of the soil. Of course it has been very dry for a week or more.

Jim, now I have to put down the popcorn and step in. You state Kordes roses are truly great and so unavailable in this country. Many of us have pointed out that this is not true. Palatine, Ashdown, Hortico, Pickering, Vintage and a few more that I don't have time to name have Kordes roses. If you mean that they are not mass-marketed like Austins, that is true. But, then, it is incumbent upon us to spread the word and point new rose growers to sources that do carry Kordes roses.

Back to the bleachers.

Pam------well-said---

You always have a way of saying exactly what I'm thinking !!

Thanks,
Florence (still a newbie even at 78 )----LOL

By this country I meant our country, the US of A.

So 3 of the nurseries you named are Canadian. And that's where I got most of mine.

The 2 American sources carry a very few and both are own root which don't do well here. I've had bad luck with those I got from Vintage.

So with that I'm out of here. About time, heh!

Jim,

This is the ANTIQUE Roses Forum.....I think the Kordes roses are best discussed on the general Roses Forum, don't you agree?

;-)

I certainly don't want to step on any toes here, but I love the David Austin Roses and they certainly don't fit into the hybrid tea category, so why not here. Read what you want to read and what you don't, skip over. La de da de da.....Life's too short to fret over such silliness.

Mel

Jim,

Click the link to see a gift from a fellow admirer. Smirk

Here is a link that might be useful: We are thinking of you!

"Yankees!!!!!!!!......Yankees here?......Oh my Gawd I didn't know they was Yankees here!!!!!!........:) "

We is sneaky like dat. We is in ur zone, growin ur rozez!

I saw a Kordes rose in Home Depot the other day. I specifically didn't buy it because of Jim. So there.

An idea I have!!! I will marry a Kordes and Austin rose. Call it 'hybrid gallica.' From House of Pfüfuník. It will have name of 'Wilhelm Austin.'

You laugh, but remember 'Velveeta Sunrise.' It can be done!!! By Voynovians.

Another pic for Jim:

{{gwi:245263}}

My hero! Although I'm not into older men, I do find him SO attractive.

Great Scott - I've become a coot!

Okay - reintroduction is needed. I haven't posted in years, and rarely drop in.. BUT in honor of the roses blooming, I decided to check the posts for comraderie-purposes. He's right you know. The feel of the place has changed.

My rosegarden that once had over 200 roses has changed too. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I had to choose what must be done over what I wanted. I had most of the roses removed, and the list of 10 or so I am left with are all the old and mostly spring bloomers. Although R. Moschata, alway described as a once bloomer (yes, once for 3 months) is unfairly labelled. Right now I'm in the clutches of an Henri Barruet flush that cannot be described. I tend to lurk around that corner of the garden revelling in the experience while it lasts.

I think this forum is supposed to be for newbies who want to learn about antique roses, and coots who want to teach them.

Yankees!!!!!!!!......Yankees here?......Oh my Gawd I didn't know they was Yankees here!!!!!!........:)

Oh, relax, Paul! I can't speak for the others (you'll just have to watch those people! LOL), but all my people are Southern and I was born in the South, and though by circumstances was transplanted North, I was raised on Southern home training and sweet tea (didn't even know there was any other kind until college, when I started dating a real Yankee).

Jim, about the Austins' prevalence: As Jeri and others have so astutely pointed out, that's just marketing. People seem to be obsessed with the Brits and their lifestyles, their names (look at the baby name trends, especially for girls), their TV shows, their movie stars, their accents... somehow, people seem to think, all things British are somehow better and of a higher, more refined and educated stature. So of course they eat up the Austin propaganda. Maybe the Germans need better press.

And also, sorry to say, but some folks are just ignorant. Watching QVC the other night (oh the shame!), I saw this female host on a gardening show with this guy peddling an Austin collection. "Oh, I've never SEEN blooms like this; this is a truly EXTRAORDINARY rose." And she meant every single word. Now, we who are acquainted with the antique world know this is nothing rare or super-special, but for those who have only ever seen a hybrid tea... That's why it's up to us to educate.

So maybe disdain isn't the answer, just education...

Kordes Roses?

Those are the orange ones, right?

MichaelAT

I disagree that it's "marketing" or because of the "English" factor. For those of us in the north, they truly perform well compared to our other choices. We can grow several diffeent kinds of OGRs, but not the teas or chinas. The Austins are hardy AND rebloom, something that others in the south may take for granted.

MAT--

You are so bad!!! Thanks for the laugh.

Ronda