Agree with Ken to some point BUT it *is* possible to have plantings under a maple. I've done it. Under multiple maples. The trick is to find plants that handle the root competition and don't mind some dryness, and to plant a bit out from under the tree - I'd say at least 6 foot away from the base of the tree. There are also a few tricks you can pull out of your bag such as lining holes with garbage bags or sink large plastic pots to plant in, use moisture-absorbing crystals, etc. I have even gotten hydrangeas (!!) established under a maple tree, and they are thriving (the moisture crystals were invaluable here). Here's an example photo. You can see the shadow of the maple in the lower left corner. We have turtlehead, hosta, fern, brunnera, and you can see the edge of a hydrangea. The bed extends closer to the tree, you can't see it in the first photo. Anyway, the edge of the bed begins about 6' or so from the base of the tree. Hey, I think the plants are doing pretty darn well. I used the garbage bag trick to get the turtlehead going, but they've been there about 10 years already and are firmly established. Same bed, different angle. There's plants behind/next to the hydrangea you can't see in this photo: Point is - it takes effort to garden under maples, but it is possible if you're willing to do some trial and error and be creative in how you manage the problem.

Well, thank you all for giving me something to think about. I've decided just this year, that I am design challenged in the garden. I don't seem to be coming up happy with any of the results of what seemed like great ideas at the time. [g] So, I am a little gun shy of placing plants this time around. It seems so odd, that I can recognize good design and find many gardens and styles of garden that I absolutely love, but to create a garden seems more of a challenge than I thought and placement is where things start to go wrong for me. Like you Kathy, what I have to work with is not at all what I would choose, so I try to make the best of it, which lately is getting on my nerves. [g] I would love to move too and start over. Want to take me with you? :-) I was just looking at an old photo of your front garden and actually the size of our front yard is similar in size. You are lucky that you have the sidewalk, we go straight to the street. I like what you've done by having no lawn...it makes much more sense in that size yard and looks very attractive. I have wanted to do something similar in the front, but DH is reluctant to give up all the lawn. He feels mowing the lawn once a week is a lot less work than caring for perennial/shrub beds. Which I can't argue with. I still plan to change the front at some point, but it's at the bottom of the priority list right now, so I am stuck with this square bed. Actually last year, after placing perennials and filling in with annuals, I was happier with the bed, than I am now. I got carried away with winter sowing last year and OMGosh, to describe what went wrong, I just had to count how many Shasta Daisies I put in that bed...ten! LOL My first time trying shastas, and I was not prepared for how fast and large they grew. They were supposed to be dwarfs. Wow, no wonder it was so crowded there this year. I didn't even have room for one annual that I could add! On top of which, I've discovered I don't enjoy Shasta daisies. :-) I've already ripped out most of them. Funny, you should suggest the diagonal placement, I was just reading an article in Fine Gardening, recommending the same thing. So, if I break the square up into two triangles the long sides of the two triangles would both be in the middle, diagonally dissecting the square bed, right? So on what side of the triangle would you try to add the taller plants? The diagonal line would either run from NW to SE or NE to SW. Street is on the East side of the square and house on the West. Ostrich...sounds like your methods are working for you. I'm not the one digging and moving, DS is and he is rolling his eyes every time I want to move 'again'. [g] Mad Gallica....you are right, that is what I need to do. I will have to give it more of a try than I usually do and see how it works out. Bonnie....I am with you, I do love experimenting and trying new combinations, now if I could just have a full time garden helper to do all the moving, I would be all set. :-) Thank you.. :-) pm2

I'm glad I found this thread. Lots of good ideas, and pros and cons I hadn't considered. A public garden I tend is in the back of a 2-story church with vast, white walls that receive full sun most of the day during summer. In Sacramento, that can mean several days of 100+ weather. We don't get any rain through the summer, so everything needs to be hand watered in the hot, rainless months. For the past 3 years we've used blue morning glories, which are like perennials in our climate. We usually have several days of below freezing weather in the winter which tinges some of the plants, but usually never kills. Careful pruning before spring makes frosted spots invisible. I have not planted any morning glories myself. They have self seeded or continued to grow like perennials. Everyone loves them, but are willing to consider something else. There are places where I need to pull down dead vines, but most of it continues to grow. Last year it joined forces with an extremely vining rose and took over the lower half of the building. Then it was difficult to cut back with all the thorns. It also has turned the corner of the building getting entangled with other plants. It jumped to the palms and hollyhocks in the nearby raised bed. I'd like to find something that is more low-maintenance especially since this is a volunteer-tended garden. Is there anything besides close vigilance and pruning to keep the vining rose from playing with whatever is on the wall? It is planted very close to the wall. I've considered letting it take over, but it's not a big bloomer, especially if I let it grow wild. Perhaps best solution is to dig it up. The bright blue of the morning glories is very exciting against the white walls, so I would need something with lots of continuing color to keep everyone happy. If the vine lost control and kept growing up to the second floor and roof, we would have no way o trimming it back. I've considered passifloras, but was told only one species might survive Sacramento's very hot summers. I do like Black Eyed Susans and the flowers are bright, but not sure they are right for that spot. Jasmines might be too invasive although they smell heavenly. I don't know any that have bright colors either. I don't know the name of the existing vining rose. It has thorns. Not an option of replacing it with a rose that's more manageable -- no funds at all and digging it up would be a big pain. Nasturtium would be WONDERFUL but it needs the coolness and moisture of the Bay Area to thrive here. I haven't found a good spot yet that is shaded enough for a small patch of nasturtium that would bloom in early spring and again in very late summer. Maybe staying with the morning glories is the best way to go? I could be more aggressive in keeping it confined to the one wall, then pull all of it down about December. By spring it's all grown back and starts blooming the minute the sun shine hits it for longer periods of the day. But it never reaches the second story walls. Is there something else you all could recommend within the confines of my situation? This year I've been promised a sort of small arbor around "U" shaped bench seating. My job is to create some overhead shade. I'm leaning toward grapes. Since this garden isn't secured, we don't want to create completely opaque sides that might mask 'other' activities at night. Someone also mentioned tomatoes -- hadn't considered that.

Thanks! Is there a tall upright shade-tolerant, slow-growing grass or plant that I can plant at the back of this bed for vertical interest? The Japanese forest grasses I looked at appear to be short. I am a little afraid of the climbing hydrangea, it might be hard to control...? For ferns, I originally had my heart set on Tennessee ostrich fern since it is more upright than the other varieties I looked at, but then I read that it spreads rapidly and so dropped the idea. Dryopteris erythrosora ‘Brilliance’ looks very nice, but not sure if I want an orange shade in there. I will keep looking. I want to have Dicentra 'king of hearts' in that bed. Not really finding a source, but there are seeds available. Can they be grown from seed easily? I planted some astilbe from home depot in a different location, and I think maybe it is too much sun, though only morning sun .. they are dying. I am hesitant to try again here, considering in this location they get 11am-1pm hot sun. So, on the whole, now I am thinking some bright colored hostas, ferns, king of hearts dicentra. I will go to the nursery this weekend, I hope they have some nice varieties that were discussed here. Otherwise I will have to order online. I am wasting way too much time on this.. :) Thanks so much.