Sherry -- I have been in the beginning of 2 1/2 public rose gardens. One I still feel great about. 1.5, notsomuch.

I learned A LOT in the process. ANYTHING i can do to be helpful -- call on me.

Jeri Jennings
The Heritage Roses Group

Thank you, Jeri. I will.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

You go, girl.

Sheri, I don't have a lot of experience. I did negociate on a small public garden once. I just want to give you encouragement because this is a wonderful important task you are embarked on.

Negotiating... THAT's what I need to know about. Among many other things, I guess.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Could you post a date for that meeting in Lakeland, please?

Yes. There are things you need to know that one might not even think of.

I'll try to think of some of it, and send it to you.

Jeri

Lakeland dates are November 14 - 17.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

No matter what else you do -- the long-term success of such a project will rest to a great degree on retaining volunteers. And THAT requires that the City not actively drive them away. I know that sounds silly -- but we watched it happen.

Jeri

Hi Sherry,

If you really wish to go ahead with this project and hope to sway civic officials, i would suggest you begin with four things:

1) Do some scouting for possible sites in your city or county. That way you will add some context about where it might be located;

2) Build a business case. Why is this garden a good idea and what can it bring to your city or county. Things such as extra green or park space if that is lacking, tourism, etc. That will depend on what is in the garden and why people will be attracted to it;

3) Begin to think about possible sources of funding, both for creating the garden and for upkeep. This would include possible grants from organizations in the state such as foundations, as well as corportate and private doners who might have an interest in such a garden. In my small town, we just recieved a $100,000.00 grant this winter from the Aviva Insurance company to refurbish the local swimming pool which had closed;

4) Build a working group and find out if you have the volunteer support necessary to design, build and maintain your heritage rose garden.

I tried to get a cold hardy rose garden idea going in my small town in Eastern Ontario several years ago. I wanted to feature Griffith Buck and some David Austin roses amongst others. The town I live in is on the Rideau Canal which is a United Nations World Heritage Site. I had my business case done, which was largely tourism related with the garden to be situated on an small unused island belonging to Parks Canada next to the boat basin which is frequented by boaters from all across Nofth America in summer. I had agreement from Parks Canada and the Town Counsel that this was a good idea. I had enough funding to get the roses and begin the design and construction phase.

Number four was the thing that killed the project for me. I had lots of verbal support from the local horticultural society but pretty much zero interest in commiting to labour to build it, or a commitment from the society to keep it up. I even had support from the local high school for student seniors in various programs to help build the garden.

The commitment to maintain the garden was the straw that broke the project. The town and Parks Canada wanted assurances that the horticultural society would maintain the garden, so parks staff didn't have to take on this task in perpetuity.

Perhaps number four is the one you need to get taken care of first. Get a working group going and get some very solid commitments from others in your rose society. Good luck with your project.

Cheers, Rideau Rose Lad

Rideau Rose Lad said more clearly what I was trying to say - an ability to maintain the garden after planting is critical. I'm afraid that gardens are not a case of "if they build it they (volunteers) will come" - somebody needs to make sure that the garden sustains.
Anita

Yes. I thank Rideau Rose Lad for stating it so well. There is joyous enthusiasm in the planning and planting of a garden, but you have to know that enough folks are in it for the long grind.

And having worked on projects like this, and having been in charge of the "care and feeding" of volunteers at two different churches, I have come to fully appreciate the value of dedicated volunteers, who can make and keep a long-term commitment.

Jeri

Anita and Rideau Rose Lad, thanks so much for everything you said. I'm afraid I'm in for an uphill battle, but I'll keep going until I get stopped. #4 makes Sacramento and Anita all the more amazing. Twenty years!!!

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I am in the middle of building a native plant/learning garden at my local Recycling Center. I think that the advice that you have received is very thoughtful and insightful. I mainly wanted to congratulate you on having the idea and encourage you to persevere. It took a lot of meetings with city council to get my project off the ground.

What a wonderful idea. With the proliferation of KO roses, I worry about losing OGR. Public gardens are a great place to celebrate the beauty and history of these wonderful roses. Good luck!

One other thing - Barbara says in the video that it took a long tie for the city to approve, but she wasn't in on the initial negotiations and the two people who were, Fred Boutin and Jean Travis, both say that it took a surprisingly short amount of time for the city to say "yes." The city wanted to put the rose garden in a shadier spot, but once that was sorted out, things fell into place. The thing is that the city was eager to get the cemetery beautified and cared for by volunteers, so this was a win-win for them. If you can find a similarly needy spot in your area, that might help. I think that Stephen Scanniello's experience in Harlem has been similar- it's easier to get a "yes" if it's an area that needs beautification or wants a project that will add character to a neighborhood.
Anita

In Camarillo, the rose garden was laid out, and the roses planted. Two weeks later, they planted trees next to the garden. It was the first clue I had that we were not communicating as well as I had thought we were.

Jeri

Sherry: Reading of your dreams of a rose garden reminds me of an identical dream Rufus Swain first had a little more than 20 years ago in Wilson, a small city in eastern NC. In fewer than 20 years, the Wilson Rose Garden has already become MUCH more than anyone ever anticipated.

As we all know, some environments are more "rose-friendly" than others. The coastal plain of NC is NOT one of those environments. The fact that the Wilson Rose Garden has become such a success story is testament to a cadre of stalwart volunteers (The Wilson Deadhead Society), and an uncommonly supportive community.

A video of the garden in springtime profusion can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se77wWFXzb4

The video, unfortunately, features the modern sections of the garden. There are, however, OGRs to be found there. Incidentally, the garden contains a number of the thermotropic/phototropic modern roses hybridized by John & Robyn Sheldon.

I'm providing a link that provides info on the garden, including an overview of its history that you may find helpful.

Rose garden dreams do sometimes come true, Sherry, so follow yours.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wilson Rose Garden

Absolutely Jeri, maintenance is the most difficult issue and Sherry or her surrogate needs to be in control of what is planted where. Twenty foot conifers planted next to the rose garden in memory of dear departeds just does not work. Another issue is easy access to the garden; parking and access for maintenance; wheelbarrows, mulch, you name it. Also some means of retaining control whether by contract or other means.

Cath

Oh yes, and these contracts/agreements should survive the transfer of the garden from one government entity to another.

Cath

Yup. Cath has it. These things are the un-fun part of the process, but they are also among the most-vital.

Jeri

Too far ahead for now, but a note for later. Looking at the Wilson links, they had arches with climbers and a gazebo - great for marriages and photo opportunities (prom, etc.), ergo possible donations for upkeep.

Thanks, Lagomorphmom. Personally, I've been kind of bummed-out by all the nay sayers who are doing their da@#%dest to rain on Sherry's parade. Ocala is many times larger than Wilson -- maybe that's a plus, maybe that's a negative . . . Afterall, every situation is different, and every locale poses its own unique set of issues and problems.

All I know about Sherry is that she is obviously an impassioned lover of old roses. Who knows what she'll be able to accomplish in this new venture? To Sherry I say: You go girl! And always keep this in mind: There'll never be enough beauty or enough roses in this world . . .

Oh yes, and these contracts/agreements should survive the transfer of the garden from one government entity to another.

Cath

I apologize for the double post. The suggestions regarding pitfalls are not to discourage Sherry but rather to help her be successful and to help her avoid those we have fallen into.

Cath

We've never had any sort of contract or written agreement with the city for the Sacramento Historic Rose Garden. It's not the best situation but we've survived without it.
Anita

I wish you all the best. It sounds like an exciting project, not easy but highly rewarding. How wonderful that you have found your dream. Many people never do.

If you do get your public rose garden established, I will come to visit it. I have a dear brother living in Ocala. Next time I head down that way to visit him we will go to see the roses. Now I will have a double reason to get on a plane and go there.

Rosefolly

Anita, your situation really is unique, though. The Sacramento Cemetery's gardens transfigured a tragically-decayed part of the history of the City and State, making it both beautiful and accessible. And thank God, even in budget crunches, your city seems to be able to retain the knowledge that this is important.

I think that, if I wanted to make a public garden of Old Roses, I would try to do what has been done in the Sacramento and Lynchburg cemeteries -- using the history of the place as a twin to the beauty and historic value of the roses.

We did something like that (on a far smaller scale) at the Stagecoach Inn, Newbury Park, CA. There were no contracts there, either -- but a few dedicated volunteers, working with the Historical Society, make it happen, and have done so for almost 20 years.

Jeri

Sherry, I'm so thrilled that you are : 1. Planning to start a historic rose garden in Ocala, and 2. That you had such a response to the DVD of our garden here in Sacramento. I got a little teary myself, reading your post!

I've been a volunteer here for nearly five years, and I love it more all the time, although at the beginning at thought that I would never last. I had allergies, I was afraid of bees, I had never really done any gardening at all and was quite ignorant - except that I had read a book about old roses and fallen in love with them. Now I look back and can see how much I've learned (and, if I'm not mistaken, I think that you and I both got into the old rose thing about the same time).

I think that if you and your allies can help your volunteers to learn about the roses, as Barbara and Anita and others helped me, you can build a willing and devoted group. It's clear that there are difficulties, but it is SO worth trying. All the best to you!

Laura

Hey, Ms.Dynamic - what a great idea - generous, creative, optimistic - all the qualities which shine out from your postings and your blog. Absolutely sending huge psychic waves of hope and joy in your direction. This endearing can-do spirit is one of the traits we Brits love most about Americans....and you have it in spades, Sherry. Top idea - luck and courage.

Windeaux, I can see why you think some of, I'll call them "tips", sound unsupportive. Sherry, I hope you didn't take them that way, too!!!

I've not done a garden project, but I've been involved in volunteering for many, many years in several different areas of my life including ham radio (community service through the city government, local disaster preparedness, air show communication support, etc.) and pet rescue. In my experience, all of the "tips" above, if considered ahead of time so you can get your ducks in a row so to speak, will only HELP **set you up for success** (I don't know how to underline ;-) I hope you think of them that way.

Volunteer time has VALUE to those donating it. Sherry, I can't dream that you wouldn't appreciate every volunteer under your wings and provide an enjoyable and enriching experience for them as well as letting them know how much you value their time. That ethic will keep volunteers coming back (even the knuckleheads ;-)

For many of you, the following is preaching to the choir, but it needs to be emphasized. The wrinkle for a project like this comes from the *Entity* that is in charge of the Volunteer Group (VG). In this case, unless land is donated without restrictions to the VG, which has been set up as a charitable organization, it is the Entity that will make or break the project. It also needs to be understood, that the Entity, may consist of different people over time that may have different values and visions. Even the people *above* the Entity may change similarly. Therefore, preparing for this with bargaining in the beginning for as much autonomy as possible, Sherry will better set herself up for ***success***.

Yes, having enough volunteers is an issue over time - remember the Volunteer Rule: Only 10% of the people do 100% of the work! If you start smaller and grow, I wouldn't worry about that part. But what will shut a project down is an overseer that has a different vision.

Sorry if my emphasis above looks tacky, I'm an HTML moron ;-)

Sherry, many hugs to you, I wish that I could give them in person! I wish you the utmost success. I hope you keep us all posted on how you're doing on this so we can live vicariously through you ;-)

Oh, gosh, I didn't expect this huge outpouring, but I guess I should have. You all are very encouraging, and I appreciate Windeaux's not wanting my parade rained on, but I really was looking for the worst case scenario because I always go into things with a very Pollyanna perspective. After I posted I thought to myself, well, I've covered myself because I used the word "dreams" so if I chicken out and/or fall on my butt out of the gate, I'll have an easy out in front of all my friends. The "big idea" always seems to be easy for me, but I possess no courage in these matters, and it only took seconds for my resolve to get all squishy. This is not anything I have ever done before. I'm a wallflower and a bystander not an organizer or go-getter. So I need all the help I can get.

I haven't started anything yet. I've been mulching my garden. However, I do want to educate myself and get prepared. I have comrades in the rose society smarter than me about these things so that's a good thing, and my passion must be good for something even if my know-how is limited.

Campanula, you always bowl me over with the things you say. Your contrarian days are over, Ms. Softie. Ms. Dynamic? Wouldn't that be nice? Keep those vibes coming. (Do you really read my blog?)

Laura and Lagomorphmom, thanks for your hugs and best wishes. They're much appreciated as is your intelligent input.

Jeri and Cath, thanks for the warnings of the pitfalls to come. If you think of anymore, let me know.

Rosefolly, I look forward to your visit. I'll keep you posted.

Anita, again thank you for all your thoughts.

Windeaux, thanks for your support and encouragement and for the Wilson Rose Garden links. We'll see if Ocala can rise to the occasion as Wilson did.

I just thought of a question. How do public gardens handle the early years of newly planted babies and teenager roses in the gawky stage? I feel more comfortable with an informal setting like the cemetery for that reason, but what do I know? Oh, did you have events to raise money or were all the roses donated? Any big donors or lots of little donors? One thing that scares me a bit is that Anita's energies have mostly gone to the city garden, leaving her garden to take a back seat. It's hard to do everything, I know, but I'd like to avoid that situation - at least that's what I say now. Or maybe I'm just the one to get the ball rolling. Who knows?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Perennials and annuals help the garden to bridge the small awkward stage of the roses. You may even plan to keep some of them for the mature stage of the garden.

I think the most critical factor in regard to your ease or difficulty in your relations with the local government is how much they value the garden. In our case our organization spawned (perhaps not the best word) gardens, two festivals, an historic encampment and an educational field day for a generation of grade school students yet was always viewed as unimportant. Regardless of how it is/was viewed what really matters is what it accomplished. It is just that if your goal is valued, your work will be easier.

"Mighty oaks from little acorns grow." You go girl.

Cath

Thanks, Cath, my vision of the garden definitely includes perennials that like it here. Your comment reminds me that that is exactly what I did when my roses were young. Good thought!

What is your organization?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Thanks Sherry, I'm glad you took our "tips" as forewarned is forearmed instead of a downer.

As for not following through, and under many other shoulda, coulda, woulda regrets, I forgot to mention Kerin's No. 1 Rule of Volunteerism (taught to me by many before me!): You Are a Volunteer Also. Ergo, it is not your job, your albatross or your stress. Some stress is positive and some is negative, I know you know the difference from your work, so pay attention to your little voice auditor, life is too short to volunteer doing something that is a pain in the tushkie.

Btw, Kerin's No. 2 Rule of Volunteerism Is: If you do a task well, the job is yours forever because you did such a good job.

Kerin's No. 3 Rule of Volunteerism: If you do a task poorly, the job is yours until you do it well. (See Rule No. 2)

Lastly, daylilies would be *smashing* around the roses.

More hugs, K

Sherry, our organization is a garden club but I am no longer a member.

Cath

Sherry -- Yes. When we planted the Stagecoach Inn, we made great use of perennials and annuals, to "fill in." And that, even tho the roses had been grown up for several months by volunteers.

NOW there's no room for most of them, tho that garden still has a good many of the Irises we planted back then. There's no room for them because of the REAL error we made. EYE made.

I underestimated the eventual size of the mature roses. So that is ONE CROWDED GARDEN. Still pretty. But if I were designing it today, I would do some things differently -- given the small size of this garden. This was taken in the spring, maybe 4 years ago, but by Fall, the plants are enormous.

Jeri

Sherry, I have been pondering your comment about my garden taking a back seat, and indeed it has - but it's by my choice. I much prefer gardening in a public place, with other people working with me and coming to see the garden. The cemetery rose garden is three acres, with a lot of sun and well-drained sandy loam soil, while my home garden is small and rather shady and has dense clay soil, soggy in the winter and hard as a rock in summer despite years of soil amendment. I enjoyed planning my garden, but tweaking and maintaining it isn't nearly as rewarding as caring for the cemetery garden. I also like managing people - that's what I did for a living. It's a lot different to do it with volunteers rather than paid employees, and I've learned that I need both a smile in my face and in my heart to do it effectively.

I do have a nice garden at home, and this is the time of year when I have an illusion of control over it. While it's not my main focus, it still gives me pleasure. I am reluctant to have strangers come see it because I'm pretty well known as a Master Gardener and garden writer and rose garden manager, and it's very hard to live up to their expectations. But I happily share it with friends, family and fellow rose lovers - just not garden tours!

About dealing with the early stages of a garden - because we have so much room in the cemetery, the roses were mostly planted with plenty of space to grow. Having the burial plots cleared of weeds and planted with roses was such an improvement that I don't think there was any pressure to make it look like a conventional garden. There was almost no pruning of the roses in the first several years. I think that I first visited it three or four years after its establishment, and it looked both barren and overgrown, with big unruly roses surrounded by weeds and wood chips. We've done a huge amount of work adding companion plants, including annuals that self-seed and perennials. That takes volunteer time to maintain them, of course. We volunteers primarily work on the roses, of course, but we like the big unruly look and focus on the roses being healthy and not blocking pathways or monuments. The garden is still mostly roses and wood chips, with plenty of weeds, but it looks more like a garden now than it did before.

The cemetery went from roses only to roses with companion plants - at home, my experience was more like Jeri's with the Stagecoach Garden (which is a little gem). I filled in with perennials and annuals and the garden was quite pretty in early days while the roses got established, but it's changed a lot as the roses and trees have shaded and crowded some of the planting beds. It still is pretty but it's not got the variety that it once has - the roses dominate.
Anita

Ahhhh ... "The roses dominate.".
GOOD!

Jeri

Anita, thank you for that expanded explanation of your situation. It gives me a different perspective and one less ogre to fear. I'm also seeing that for something like a Sacramento cemetery garden rather than a Wilson garden there is less to do rose-wise for a while after the initial planting. I have had great success from one larkspur plant that has reseeded every spring throughout the garden after I moved some of the seedlings to outlying parts. They come up everywhere including the gravel. Makes me think getting volunteers to sow winter seeds in early fall would be a good project. I know... getting them to do it will be the biggie.

Does anyone think it is necessary to create a non-profit group or will it suffice to be an unofficial group? Probably the city will be concerned about liability. I read on our city parks website that they will go 50/50 contribution up to some $ figure but that is designated only for projects where the land is owned by the group/entity. One problem at this early stage is that I don't know who owns the two old cemeteries that I've been thinking about. Perhaps the funeral home corp that owns the one next to them. I guess I would approach them as well. The big cemetery next to the two old ones is a perpetual care lawn type cemetery, but the old ones have monuments and headstones and lots of trees scattered around. I have yet to take a walk in them. That's my next step. DH thinks the veteran's park would be a good possibility. It's already got the sidewalks, benches and other hardscape - probably an acre or two of mostly grass, I think, in a central sunny location, much more visible than the cemeteries. I'll have to check that, too.

I really appreciate your latest comment, Anita. It seems to have had a calming effect on me.

Lago, those are some good rules to keep in mind as I go forward.

Jeri, thank you for that photo of the Stagecoach garden. Very impressive even if it is 'planted wrong'. I'll need photos like that to get authorities off the Knock Out track, I think. Since my garden is totally no-spray, I think I would have some credibility with them about which roses would work in a lowest maintenance environment, and they could even visit mine for a firsthand view possibly.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...