"3) Build a large, hot "campfire" over the area that contains the compost."

A campfire on top will do nothing to heat what's below. You'd think it would, but it does not. I once burned my annual brush pile over a sheet of plastic barely covered by an inch or so of loam. Only the exposed edges were melted or burned. The heat simply does not penetrate downwards.

You can compost your pets stool but not safely. It is not just the potential disease pathogens but also the potential of the many intestinal worms that pets may pick up, and composting may not always eliminate those.
Depends on what you want to expose your family to.

I know there are some on here that compost their pets waste with no problems and use it in the vegetable garden. I think it's just a matter of what you're comfortable with.

I don't compost my pets waste because besides what I feed her, she has a nasty habit of eating other things (that shall go unmentioned). Also, I have a ravine behind my house where I pitch it.

If I had to compost my pet waste I would go with something like what is shown in the link below.

Val

Here is a link that might be useful: Pet Waste Composting

What does your dog eat that it is carring pathogens and worms?

My dogs were de-wormed as pups, they get a monthly worm preventative and they are vaccinated regularly (or at a minimum titer tested for immunity)...

My dogs eat a sanitary healthy diet. I know that my dogs are healthy and not carry any pathogens or worms. My dogs get better health care than most people in the world.

I do not hesitate to compost my dog's poo. The real question to consider when thinking about composting pet poo, is how healthy is your dog?

What does your dog eat that it is carring pathogens and worms?

Her poop, squirrel poop, rabbit poop, anything rotting in the compost (if she can get at it), corn that falls from the squirrel feeder, bird seed that falls from the bird feeder, suet (when the squirrels knock it to the ground), sticks, snow. Did I mention the poop?

I've never had a dog like this before. It's quite challenging. She's a beagle-mix pound-dog. She's healthy but the vet said beagles are sometimes just like that. Oh Yea!

Val

My understanding is that omnivores like humans and dogs naturally have bacteria such as ecoli in their feces, even if fed a vegetarian diet. It sounds like composting dog waste for food crops is a risky business and should be kept to seasoned composters -- using techniques such as hot-composting and worm-composting. (even then it still carries a risk)

Look like I'm going with plan B -- as suggested by val_s...

I don't do anything with it. She poops and 4 days later it's gone. You can't tell where it was.

Day 1: Steaming pile that attracts flies
Day 2: Slightly drier pile covered with pill bugs (rollie pollies, or whatever you call them - wood lice)
Day 3: Has a slight slump to it. At this stage if you accidentally step on it, it does not stick to your shoe (voice of experience)
Day 4: "Melted" back below the level of the grass and disappears.

Val, I can sympathize...
Pretty much replace "her poop" with "cat poop". We don't have squirrels, but mine both like horse poop, same for the compost pile. One of my 2 appears to have eaten birdseed some time in the last week. Oh, and add unidentified items she finds in the grass along the roadside. On a road trip this summer, I swear she found something to eat at nearly every gas station or rest area we stopped at. She fakes me out, I think she's just having an intense "doggy sniff" moment, then she makes her move. She tried for a dead bird on our walk today.

Have a friend who's Newfoundland did the poop eating thing as a puppy. The vet gave her some medicine to try. It would make the dog sick if she ate poop. She didn't use it for long, not after the dog was sick... on the kitchen floor... (there's your gross image for the day).

BTW, my "charming" girl had a sister (sadly, departed now) who was named Val (Valerie).

dchall, no such luck here. They poop, it dries. There it stays until I scoop it up. If I miss a weekly scooping, well, there's just twice as much the next week. Eventually it gets old and crumbles away, but the stench we'd endure in the meantime would not be worth it.

I have considered composting or burying it (for non-food plants), but then I was reading a while back that it may be like having an improper septic tank, and can cause pollution. I'm holding off on my decision until I have a chance to do some more research. Though, I'm considering burying some near a couple plants to see if it might keep the pocket gophers away (purely a guess, haven't researched that idea either)

greenbean - finally someone who understands! I've got to be on my guard all the time with my dog...it's like having a kid who picks their nose in public LOL

And I also hear you about this statement: They poop, it dries. Although right now it would read: She poops, it freezes :-)

Hmmm...you gave me an idea. Late in the fall I discovered a mole rampaging in MY territory. I wonder if burying the dog do in the middle of the moles run would deter it? Interesting.

Val

I used to have a hound dog, and yes they are notorious poop eaters. And they like to roll in stinky stuff... We used to live on the IL River, and our hound dog was constantly walking around with scales and slime from dead carp that he rolled in, stuck to his back.... yummy. I would say to him, "You really don't think I am going to let you in the house with the greasy eye ball stuck to your back". He would look back with those big hound dog eyes, "But I smell great, let me in!"

Ecoli can be in herbivore poop as well. Coliform bacteria is pretty much everywhere....so is staff....so is bird poop...

Much of the food that you already buy has been grown in a field that had non-composted manure spread on it.

I'm not eating my compost and I wash all food stuff before I eat it (well except sometimes when I am nibbling in the garden, strawberries, peas, etc.).... dirt is dirty, compost is dirty, adding dog poo to my compost is something that I do because my dogs are healthy and I am pretty picky about washing my food... But if you aren't comfortable with it, don't do it - totally understandable.

I guess I'd rather have the poo in my compost, rather than on my lawn or in a landfill (where most people leave it).

I just picked up several frozen turds off the back patio and tossed them in the pile this morning. Its been soo cold out and we have a good amount of snow, that my little dog won't walk off the patio.

"You really don't think I am going to let you in the house with the greasy eye ball stuck to your back". LMAO!! Good one Joe!

I have a Black Lab and, well, her second name is Garburator. If we leave an ice cream bucket on the kitchen counter full of compost destined yummies and leave the house, you can be guaranteed it will be gone by the time we come back.

If I pile some seaweed on the property and it starts to rot, next thing I know she's trying to get into the house with the stinky slimy stuff all over her. Yes, I can relate.

But no, I don't compost doggy doo-doos. Just not my cup of tea.

Oh, how I do NOT miss the smell of dead fish on a dog!!!

When I was a kid, we had a camp on a lake. One of our dogs liked to escape the yard. He always came back stinking of dead fish. Ick.

My lovely girl is a Black Lab, Hound and Shepherd mix. She's starving all the time (she thinks), and will eat almost anything.

I can relate to each and every one of the posts about the dogs, I think mine is a combo of all of them.

About the composting of dog doo though, while I have played around with the idea I just can't bring myself to do it. There's just an ick factor I can't get around. I have no problems with other people doing it, none at all. My motto is live and let live and have a good time....but I just can't make myself throw it in the pile :-)

Val

If the dog is healthy and has its shots etc., then by all means compost the poop as long as you place it in the hot part of the pile. This kills anything that may be in the poop, patheogens, worms and parasites. It must be done correctly and left to age properly and then it is perfectly safe to use, even on veggies. I have been composting dog poop since the 1970s and have yet to have any food borne illness from it. The concern is to do it properly because if it is not done properly it can cause probelms ranging from odors, ground water/run off to food borne illness.

Also, the poop literally disappears in less than a week if out into the hot part of the pile. Finding any trace of it can be a challenge and uusally I find none. I also compost fish scraps that disappear almost as quickly. Crab shells can take more time, but even they are gone fairly quickly. After a year of letting the pile age, it all looks like pure ordorless compost ready to be used. Check out Humanure as one guy has been composting his family's personal waste for over 35 years and he grows awesome veggies with it.

I'm wondering how the contamination occurs. I'm new to composting so I don't want to throw the waste in because I'm not sure about getting the right temperatures. Instead, I'd like to be able to put the waste directly into the ground under the garden.

I was already planning on building up my garden soil - layering on correct (purchased) soil instead of dealing with my clayish dirt. I could even bury it 3 feet down (2 feet into current level, 1 foot of new soil added). Would this put a sufficient distance between edibles and waste? Or is the concern more about the germs propagating up and contaminating all of the soil around it?

If you are new composter, I would hold off on composting poop, until you feel more comfortable with your composting skills.

I would not put uncomposted poop directly in my garden.

I compost dog poop along with everything else. Here is a pic of the type of bin that I am using.
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and here is why I feel quite comfortable with this practice. I get good hot temperatures consistently.

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If I didn't get the temperatures then I would use the compost on non-food plants mostly.

I know the subject of this question was doggy related, but my follow-up is all cat.

Do you think that using litter box clumps (Swheat litter) would be okay, or would they get too contaminated by the fecal while in the litter box?

With 3 cats and a dog I feel a desperate need to do something useful with their waste.

Nancybeetoo: To kill the various bacterial gut parasites that are commonly found in dogs, at what temperature and for how long must the compost cook at that temperature? How about for E. coli and salmonella?

I had the same yuck reaction that other people have expressed. I worked it through my rational mind by thinking about the following scenario.

Like most people with dogs, I sometimes picked up poop and sometimes let it decompose in place. What occurred to me is that it didn't make sense to have a big yuck reaction to the idea of composting poop, while I was letting poop decompose in place in the lawn in places and on soil that I would later touch by sitting on the grass, weeding the garden beds or mowing the grass and handling the grass clippings. If poop is decomposing on soil it is not composting. There is no heat and a much reduced microbial and invertebrate (worms and bugs) community. So why does it seem OK for me to sit on the grass, mow the grass, weed the beds, but not OK to consciously compost poop.

We know that compost heats up which dramatically speeds microbial metabolism. Compost has much higher microbial diversity which increases the chances that the bacteria in poop will be predated on by micropredators.

I have little concern about the bacteria in poop, (pathogenic or not). I think even in a cold compost those critters die out over time.

The critters of concern are the intestinal worms, especially roundworm eggs. I don't know that my dog has any roundworms in her gut, and I don't know that she doesn't. Roundworm eggs are resistant to dessication (drying out) and can live for several years in soil. However, roundworm eggs are killed at temperatures over about 101 F.

So really, composting dog poop is more effective at killing undesirables that not composting.

For more specific information I have included a link to the Humanure Handbook, written by Joe Jenkins. Chapter 7 is entitled "Worms and Disease". Enjoy!

Here is a link that might be useful: Humanure handbook

To me it isn't a matter of "yuck" though I'd rather not step in it regardless of location. Rather, why take any easily avoidable risk? In my circumstances it is no problem to pick up the poo into a bucket and throw it in the woods where it will break down with all of the woodland creature droppings. I realize that many folks don't have access to woodlands to dispose of their wastes and must find somewhere to dispose of them, IE composting, trash can, neighbor's yard. It is not my place or intention to criticise what anyone does with their dog poo.

The woodlands is no place to properly dispose of dog poo.

Dog poo in urban and suburban areas is a significant contributor to the pollution in stormwater runoff.

There are approximatley 68 million dogs in the United States... 40 million households own at least one dog. Thats a lot of dog poo that needs to be properly disposed.

Bacterial source tracking studies in a watershed in the Seattle, Washington area also found that nearly 20% of the bacteria isolates that could be matched with host animals were matched with dogs. This bacteria can pose health risks to humans and other animals, and result in the spread of disease. It has been estimated that for watersheds of up to twenty-square miles draining to small coastal bays, two to three days of droppings from a population of about 100 dogs would contribute enough bacteria and nutrients to temporarily close a bay to swimming and shellfishing (US EPA, 1993).

Pet waste can also be a factor in eutrophication of lakes. The release of nutrients from the decay of pet waste promotes weed and algae growth, limiting light penetration and the growth of aquatic vegetation. This in turn can reduce oxygen levels in the water, affecting fish and other aquatic organisms.

Animal waste collection programs use awareness and education, signs, and pet waste control ordinances to alert residents to the proper disposal techniques for pet droppings. In some parts of the country, the concept of parks or portions of parks established specifically for urban dog owners has gained in popularity. With provisions for proper disposal of dog feces and siting and design to address stormwater runoff, these parks may represent another option for protecting local water quality.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pollution Prevention Fact Sheet

Don't worry Michael - mine goes into the woods too and will continue to do so. Not everyone can throw it in the pile - ick factor infinity ;)

Val

Ah, the wonders of Google. here is the first entry I looked at:

What to Do with Doggy Doo
Americans haven't always been so concerned about cleaning up after their canine companions. Until fairly recently, people let their doggies do their thing, and then left the doo on the streets and sidewalks. A few conscientious souls did take the time to curb their dogs. In doing so, they were following the advice of experts. But what exactly is curbing?

Curbing is the polite term for a canine waste disposal method that really should be called the Shove-It-Into-the-Sewer approach. A curbed dog is one who's been taught to poop in the street, right by the curb, so that the next rainstorm can sweep his deposits into the nearest gutter. Once in the gutter, the poop and lots of other waste wind their way through a city's sewer system and, eventually, into nearby creeks, streams, and rivers. Those final destinations are one reason curbing is a questionable canine waste disposal method.

Scientists have discovered that dog poop is a major cause of water pollution, and that such pollution poses a significant hazard to human health. In fact, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency says pet waste is a significant cause of water body contamination in areas where there are high concentrations of dogs.

Canine waste contains lots of nasty bacteria with almost unpronounceable names: fecal streptococcus and fecal coliforms are just two examples. In sufficiently high amounts, these bacteria can make people sick sometimes very sick. For example, E. coli bacteria often causes gastrointestinal infections, as well as infections to the ear, eye, and throat. Another bacteria, campylobacter, can cause diarrhea in humans. Still another form of poop-loving bacteria, salmonella, can cause infections that trigger fever, muscle aches, headache, vomiting, and diarrhea.
Dog waste also contains other not-so-lovely disease-transmitting organisms such as roundworms. These parasites can cause their human victims to lose their vision temporarily, as well as trigger coughs and fevers.

Never thought your dog's doo could do so much damage, did you?

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/what-to-do-with-doggy-doo.html

Not having a dog for a long time and now having a Bassett/Golden Retreiver Mix I forgot about the thing with both ends.

One end plows thru the snow like a plow and finds all kinds of goodies. Before snow he could find scraps, chic bones, rib bones and watermellon rinds quicker than I could see them. We worked on it but he still wants to grab them and eat them before I can scold him.

We have had snow cover here for two months now and when I go outside I see all the yellow snow and the brownies he has left me to pick up. Guess I need a super duper pooper scooper. but there is so much. This breed dumps 3-4 times a day.

I will bag it all and send it to the trash with the cat litter. No composting. I got enough other stuff for the compost pile. don't need problems.

CURBING IT! Oh Cripes! I hadn't heard of that! Much of my life's work is spent on improving storm water quality. I cannot believe people think it would be okay to put dog waste into the storm drainage system...

Being a life long dog breeder I never waste a dropping but I don't grow vegetables.However my flowers shrubs and trees thrive on it red wiggler worms do a good job breaking it down but as I say we don't eat it.

This use of an elephant to kill a flea is, to me, an outragious attempt at trying to prove something.

If the writer wishes to throw dog excrement into her vegetable garden, then, I think, nothing said here will discourage.

So........I say.....GO FOR IT!

Val: I had a feeling someone would take issue with my dumping it in the woods while writing it.

joepyeweed: If your sole arguement against my woodland disposal method is watershed protection, I'd be happy to fill in the details as to why I selected it after considerable forethought regarding it's environmental consequences. Having spent the last 25 years in the horticulture industry, both in production, research and gardening, I am well aware of manure's potential impacts and proper methods for it's application and uses. I do honestly appreciate your concern as many never even think about poop and where it goes, human, animal or otherwise.

If you had actually done considerable forethought regarding it's environmental consequences; I am sure you would have reached a different conclusion.

In many watershed studies done across the country, pet waste is always identified as a significant contributor to bacteria, nutrients and solids in the water way. The nutrients are more of a problem than the bacteria, IMPO.

As a person who makes a living, cleaning up storm water, I'd like to say keep it up, it keeps me employed. However as a taxpayer, living a community that struggles with water quality, I would encourage you to re-research the effect of pet waste on stormwater quality.

joepyeweed: how much annual precipitation do I receive where I live? What pretreatment did I do to the poo before I dumped it? How much did I dump per trip and over how large an area? How far was the nearest source of surface water, how deep is the ground water? What soil types exist where it was dumped? What percent grade was the ground it was dumped on. Was it surface applied or buried? What is the site's previous history with regard to manure applications? Et Cetera Ad Nauseum. Gather the pertinent facts before you reach any certain conclusions. I make a living managing a municipal sewage and a municipal water system and no, where I live, it doesn't keep you employed. I do wish you the best in your job because if it is anything like mine, what you do is known by very few, understood by even fewer and appreciated by even fewer. By the way, I'm confused, would you prefer I keep it up or not?

In the gully/woods in back of my house I have seen in the last year deer, possum, raccoon and of course the "Usual Suspects" of smaller animals when it comes to "poo depositors". My neighbor has seen a coyote and many fox come out of there over the years. I liken the coyote, fox and raccoon poo to my dog poo. I don't think their poo is any better than my dog's poo. So that would be my reason for dumping back there.

Otherwise, it would have to go into the trash which leads to the dump.

Val

I make a living managing a municipal sewage and a municipal water system and no, where I live, it doesn't keep you employed.

How do you know? Have you ever hired an engineer for your treatment plant?

How does your city handle storm water runoff? Have they ever hired an engineer for compliance with IEPA permits?

If so, they have kept me, or someone like me employed.

What is the density of dogs per acre in your neighborhood compared to the density of wildlife?

If there are less dogs than wildlife, then its probably not an issue. But in urban and suburban areas it is a problem, particularly for communities who have to comply with stormwater quality regulations.

Its better for dog poo to be in a landfill than in the storm drainage system in an urban/suburban area.

Joepyeweed: I may be incorrect, but I believe you are in Illinois. That was my primary reason for assuming a lack of support for your employment. Nope to the treatment plant, it is a non-discharging pond system. It was designed by an engineer in the mid 60's however. The stormwater goes directly into nearby creeks untreated. We are also in a flood plain if you think the storm surge isn't bad enough. And no, no permit compliance engineers.

Lest you misunderstand I whole-heartedly agree that in an area such as Seattle that is densely populated with humanity and all that goes with it, including dog poo for this discussion, that a remedy is in order. We both know that ecosystems can only deal with so much before they are altered in ways that are unhealthy for them and/or us. As far as poop goes, I don't believe a one size fits all management solution is apppropriate. As an engineer in your field I would imagine you don't either. I.E. what is required in say, Seattle is vastly different than in a town with a population of 100 in an arid region on flat ground with very porous soil.

On the density question I'd have to guess that between the coons, opossum, deer (really), and skunk that frequent the interior of our city limits it might be a tossup. If you included horses and cattle in town (really), I'd guess there is more poo generated by the non-canine species as there are very few dogs.

Please tell the people who think it is OK to compost their dog poop for application to food crops that it would be better off in the landfill, I give up!

One last thought on poo that relates to surface waters you might be interested in. Three years ago, the snow geese where migrating thru and decided to stop at a nearby lake that is near here. There were about 1.3 million of them and they stayed at the lake for about 6 weeks from late Feb. to early Apr. The lake is about 3000 surface acres and has a maximum depth of 30'. I expected the lake to experience an algal bloom from all the goose droppings or some other calamity but none ever occured. I've wondered how many tons of poop must been deposited by all those geese.

Yes, geese dropping do create an algae bloom. Combine that with droppings of domesticated animals, dogs, cattle and the discharge of a POTW and blammo, you now have a situation that the environment cannot sustain.

Just because wild animals poop in the water, doesn't mean its okay for us to let domesticated animals do the same.

I do live in Illinois and I do live in an area that is defined as a urbanizing area that requires a storm water permit and treatment. Val lives in the same area.

I do think its okay for people to compost the poo of healthy pets and use it on their edible garden.

I also think its okay for people to not compost their dog poo and put in a landfill.

I also think its okay for people to leave the poo in their yard.

I don't think its okay for people to toss poo into the woods or into the storm drainage system, (the curbing described in the article), or leave it on the street or in someone else's yard, where it becomes a problem for someone else.

But who really cares what I think... its what you think that counts, isn't it?

What a stinky thread! *grin*

I don't care what people do with their dog's poo as long as they don't leave it on other people's lawn (namely mine).

I can't say I see the harm of putting it into the woods where it will decay along with all the other animal waste. But that's just my opinion.

Val

If it was just one dog, one family in a rural area, there wouldn't be anything wrong with leaving dog poo in the woods where it would decay.

And most of my comments about dog poo in storm drainage areas are focused on urban/suburban areas...where 60 percent of all homes own at least one dog.

In a 40 acre subdivision, with 1 acre lots, that is 40 homes, and at least 20 dogs. If we figure at least a half a pound of poo per dog each day.
That's 20 dogs x 0.5 pounds x 365 days = 3,650 pounds of poo that a portion of is going to get into the storm water runoff, that adds N to our lakes or rivers... yuck.

Now consider that many homes have more than 1 dog and many dogs poo more than a half a pound per day... if you really think about, dog poo is an environmental issue that more people should be conscious about...

to quote someone from a previous thread...

"...your point has been made. You don't need to repeat it. People can read it - once is pleasing, twice is more then plenty, three times is bothersome, anything more than that is..."

I think we get the picture...

Lloyd

My comment that you so nicely quoted was in response to the same information being presented again and again.

My posts on this thread have been different thoughts on the same topic - a bit different. IMO. :-P

Oh, okay, sorry, my mistake.

Lloyd

joepyeweed: I agree wholeheartedly with your post from the 26th. One thing I think you were saying is that density is the problem, is that correct? My circumstances are just as you describe in the post. I hope I did not come across as snotty or short with you in the previous posts. I have been attempting to debate the topic and don't really care if it is won or lost. I figure there's something to learn in every debate and often more than in just reading. Thank you for these discussions, even though we disagree on some things, I'd imagine we probably agree on others.

I figured you lived in a more rural area, especially if the town you work for has had the same treatment plant for over forty years and you aren't subject to storm water regulations. :-)

So that is why I wanted to clarify the density issue...

Yep, you clarified it well. Our county is about 900 sq. mi. with a pop. of about 1800, 1100 of them live in one town. Many things are sparse out here.

I have for 40 years always had at least 20 dogs = pups all well taken care of and I consider their droppings an asset.Waste not want not it is all properly composted with every other usable thing we have as nice a home as any in town with a very healthy enviroment.I agree that one shouldn't dump pails of crap in the woods but process it and use it as an asset.

Wow! I was thinking of getting a dog, but forget it! Way too complicated!!!
Audrey

My nephew gave me The Big Necessity: The Unmentionable World of Human Waste and Why it Mattters for Christmas. I'm proud that my nephew thought about me when he saw the book.

I don't pick up Ellen's poop. I don't mow the lawn, so paths pretty much dictate the directions one can travel, so it's not a huge issue as far as stepping in it goes, but her contribution to my lake is not small, now that I think about it, so I may start composting it in a non-lakeside pile instead.

I always run what I called a "wild bin". It's where I put undesirables---big sticks, thorny stuff, invasive stuff, dead stuff. I guess that's where I'll put the dog poop. It gets harvested about every two years.

Val, you own those woods, right?

What about using a worm bin to compost it. After all worms have the name manure before them for a reason don't they?

Personally I wouldn't use it for food garden if it was composted but in flowers yes.

Vicky

Perhaps this country went astray the past twenty five or so years or were brainwashed in most areas.Everything is a big deal 90% of the people who have gas guzzling pickups no more need a truck than a hole in their head.They all moved to the suburbs from town and ASSUMED a truck was part of the package actually most never need to go to the land fill or recycling center.We do alot of pruning every year and rather than take the trimming away I find spots in the yard over the snow fence behing some evergreens and make a brush pile the birds love it for shelter and it quicker than you would think breaks down in a natual way so r their is room for next years branches.Same idea with leaves ,grass clippings kitchen scraps and dog poop.No need for bins and formal composting equipment.I have areas around the property that need rehab thus I start a new temporary composting area.Recently I realized a large Blue Spruce of mine was on the verge of malnutrision so it is my lastest compost area if my wife complains the paper etc is un sightly I cover with a little bark mulch and dress it up being in front of the house one would never guess it was a compost pile.Add some red wiggler worms and away you go.The Blue Spruce by the way is looking great.

Who's dumping pails of crap in the woods? Worm bin, GREAT idea, the worms can be sold to the guys that go fishin at the lakes around here! Wonder it is safe to put the castings in the garden or just dump the worm crap in the woods :)