Thanks neighbor (Pomona is next to Claremont, for people not from soCal) for the info. Very interesting...wouldnt have thought that Mermaid would not be resilient in drought.

Clever to garden on a rain-fed stream, thanks for the info on the specific varieties.

Your experience with Teas needs to be acknowledged/reconciled somehow with Trevor Nottle's experience as discussed in his book Plants for a Changing Climate, where he does not water several of his teas during summer. Possible explanations could be more retentive soil in Adelaide where he gardens (Claremont has very well drained rocky soil); or Claremont's somewhat harsher climate (???)

Thanks Melissa!!

Nate

Nate

I did a quick search on Adelaide, if I picked the right one, looks like they get almost double the annual rain fall of Claremont. That might be a big part of different results. Plus the soil.

I live in the province of Piacenza in Italy, in the northern foothills of the Apennines, and I grow a lot of Teas and other roses, without summer water.
We have deep clay soil and an average annual rainfall of 40", most of it falling September-May, with a regular summer drought--little to no rain--that lasts from two to four months. Our weather has been very irregular the last few years, with, for example, 2010 one of the wettest years on record, while 2011 was extremely hot and dry. Our average low temperatures put us technically in USDA Zone 8, but we have abundant winter chill for growing lilacs, tulips, apples and so on.
I'm not feeling too good about my Teas right now, but the problem has been two extremely wet and chilly winters, combined with inadequate soil preparation and a steep site that we should have been terracing; in addition our chief garden site is completely open to sun and wind, and I've found that Teas absolutely hate that. So the Teas have suffered badly from cankering during the two wet cold winters, and one or two actually had their roots rot (it was VERY wet), and then we had a very hot dry year, and then a spell of extreme cold in February that killed a lot of unripened growth. Ahem, well, this is gardening where I live.
Anyway, back to the Teas and no summer watering. Where I live they don't mind it. They stop flowering after some weeks with no rain, but the plants are fine. We have a good annual rainfall, as I pointed out, and deep heavy soil. I keep a permanent organic mulch on my beds and also plant thickly; in open spaces I think plants benefit from the presence of other plants. Our summer air is quite dry, and summer nighttime temperatures are comfortably fresh. My best Teas are close to the house and have some protection from terrace walls and hillsides at their backs; they have partial shade and protection from wind; it may be that they benefit from water runoff from the paved terraces above them during the occasional rare shower, and one of them from being close to potted plants above it that get watered; however, I'm not talking about a lot of moisture in this case.
Varieties that have done really well for me are 'Mme. Antoine Mari', 'Sanguinea' (usually classed as a China, but there are those who argue it's a Tea), 'Archiduc Joseph', which I believe is the U.S.'s 'Monsieur Tillier', a rose that I believe is 'Etoile de Lyon', 'Safrano'. There are many others that I think I would see thriving if I didn't have them growing in such difficult conditions, which we are remedying as we go along.
I hope this is helpful. I think the idea is a great one, and hope you can work it out: good luck!
Melissa in Piacenza

The soil can vary tremendously in a very short distance. In the old garden, the ground was dense enough to hold water for a very long time after rains. On this hill, two days after several inches of rain and the slope is dry. Very loose texture with no organic material what so ever. Brazilian and California Peppers, Black Walnut, Oleander and several natives I'm not sure what they are, flourish. Mesquite, Dodonea, Leucophyllum and Caesalpinia are doing well and seeding. Perennial Morning Glory requires watering. Iceplant doesn't. One gallon R. Bracteata, one year after planting, is fending for itself with my watering it three or four times in summer by hose. That's the only rose that will last without regular water, particularly in summer, here. Kim

To contrast, Melissa, per this site

http://www.homefacts.com/weather/California/Los-Angeles-County/Encino.html

Pomona should expect to receive just a fraction under 17 inches of rain in an average year. Encino, where I live, is about the same. We both have an average chance of sun daily of 73% year round. Pomona's average daily temperature in July is about 89 F, ours 95 F. I think we're both rather envious of your 40 inches of rain a year. In all the years I've gardened in Southern California, I've only experienced one year like that during an El Nino. Kim

http://www.homefacts.com/weather/California/Los-Angeles-County/Encino.html

I live in San Rafael, in the North San Francisco Bay area in California. Mediterranean climate, approx 30 inches of rain (except for this year) falls in the WInter. When I moved into my current home there were a few huge old roses which I know for a fact (because it was a family home) had not received any summer water for at least 25 years. The teas among them were Anna Olivier, Le Vesuve (tea/china?), and Duchesse de Brabant.

There was also a huge Spray Cecile Brunner, and several Cl American Beauties, and Cramoisi Superior, which are not teas, but you might consider.

Jackie

You're a little cooler, slightly less sunny, with twice the rainfall, Jackie.

San Rafael

Chance Of Sunshine
ANNUAL CHANCE OF SUNSHINE 66%

Temperature
JULY HIGH 80.9� - JANUARY LOW 41.3�

Precipitation
Average Annual Precipitation 34.29 inches

Pomona

Chance Of Sunshine
ANNUAL CHANCE OF SUNSHINE 73%

Temperature
JULY HIGH 88.7� - JANUARY LOW 41.5�

Precipitation
Average Annual Precipitation 16.96 inches

That's certainly been my experience here in south inland Orange County. Maybe in an severe "El Nino" year we'd get 30" but that's a mudslide year, I'd think. We've gotten as little as 3" one year around 2006 - that was an unusual drought. I don't think any rose of any type could be grown here without summer irrigation.

Add to that places that get most of their rain from September to May vs December to March, even if they get the same amounts, the patterns are very different. The shorter season can have more of that rain lost as it runs off faster than it can soak in.

Plus the micro climates in our own yards make a difference in what will work in one spot vs another.

I'm near San Jose. We get an average of 15" of rain a year, with a swing from the mid-twenties down to less than four inches this current year. My soil is a sandy clay, deeply mulched with tree trimmers' wood chips.

I have a number of climbers and larger shrubs that get watered once every three weeks. I've considered experimenting with extending that out to once a month, but with the drought, this is not the right year for that experiment.

I think that on a year with really good rainfall I might be able to get by with one or two midsummer waterings for my well-established, larger roses. I prune them and water them in such a way as to develop deep root systems. But even in such a year they would not look their best without some supplemental water.

In parts of northern California with more rain than here, roses make it through the dry summers by shutting down. After all, rose rustlers have found a number of roses that were abandoned and getting no care whatsoever. We have the found roses to prove it. My Old Town Novato is starting to bloom right now, and it is a lovely thing!

Rosefolly

Folly makes my point. Well-established old roses really do make it with relatively scant water. Teas and Chinas do this by shutting down in tough times -- and we see this over and over in old cemeteries and deserted garden sites.

HOW LITTLE water they can get along with is a question we have not yet answered, but in the coming years, we may find out, whether we want to, or not.

Jeri

Wow!! Thank you all for your contribution. Most of you noted the aridity of Pomona/inland soCal in comparison to other Medit areas, point well taken. And soil type must be important as well, I agree Kim that a slope with sandy soil in our climate will not grow tea roses unirrigated!!!

Point of clarification RE Trevor Nottle's conditions and Adelaide/Pomona rainfall: Adelaide 21 inches (wikipedia) Pomona 17 (wrcc for pomona fairplex), not much difference in my opinion, but Adelaide's average temperatures are lower too. Trevor Nottle found chinese roses (dont know if Teas or Chinas) growing in abandoned dry gardens in a couple spots around Los Angeles (personal correspondence, not in his book).

Rosefolly thanks for the point RE dormancy I did expect the roses to "shut down" in summer and defoliate. When combined with other plants that are dormant it wouldnt seem odd, in my opinion.

Thanks Melissa in Piacenza, Jackie and Rosefolly for your detailed rose information. Melissa I love the descriptions of your garden that you post (no I havent been a lurker!!!) I can tell that it must fit into the countryside. I havent checked whether youve posted pictures (??) if you havent you should!!!

My opinion based on people's input here, and comparison with Trevor Nottle's input is that probably Tea roses would do ok in an average rainfall year in Pomona, provided they have been established for at least a couple years, are in retentive soil and protected from sunscald (sunscald issue based on previous post with Roseseek). They also should be grown well away from large trees, based on my own (small) experience with roses.

Thanks!

Nate

Thanks Jeri for your input

Nate,
I love writing on this kind of topic, I'm glad it was helpful. Thanks for the kind words about my garden! I think I ought to take and post pictures as well, for my own documentation as well as to share them; unfortunately I hate cameras and photography. (Thought: perhaps I could pay my adolescent daughter to take pictures and post them? She would benefit from developing these kinds of skills, and needs to earn money.) The garden's coming along. Much of it is at its best in mid- to late spring, so I'm greatly enjoying it at present.
Another thought about Teas in our climate: we're quite far north, just under the 45th Parallel, and have a long winter in which the Teas stand around and don't do much. We don't get a lot of hard freezes, but normally (this last winter wasn't normal) we have many weeks of temperatures in the thirties and forties. The cool weather usually continues through spring, so that we still have fires in the wood stove mornings on into May. This year we're already having May weather, which is worrisome. I don't know whether that inactive period influences roses' water needs or not, but it's another variant to take into consideration.
I hope you find a way to experiment with Tea roses and see if you can use them in your landscaping. My 'Mme. Antoine Mari' ten feet from the front door is in full spring growth, the last word in splendor and joy.
Melissa

A slightly different take on drought and tea roses.

My summers have Mediterranean temperatures. My winters are more 'continental' in the European sort of temp characterization.

I can have four seasons with rain, and then go to three summers with only a tease of rainfall (and wells going dry all around me.)

I had several such dry summers in a row and well gasping for water if run for more than eight minutes.

Those dry summers I found that my big caned tea roses survived in their dense clay soils. Big canes were usually at least two inches in diameter and woody in character. My china roses were never that massive, but also survived. The smaller teas some of which had RMV signs didn't make it through.

The driest I've ever seen roses grow in the east were in a cemetery in Macon Georgia on old burial sites. On a hill, terraced with cement sides, too dry for any shrubs, and covered with dry grass and weeds in mid summer: China roses survived and several puny Old Blushes were blooming. Those roses had never had a hint of irrigation.

From my gardens I'd suggest that the soil is the first determinant and the second is the health of the rose and its ability to take advantage of the good years to make it through the dry seasons.

I live on a hillside in inland San Diego County with huge boulders and a hill behind me to trap the heat. The soil is decomposed granite and of course there is no rain in the summer. I truly think the roses would die without my watering them in the summer. One thing I do which does help is to mulch deeply with leaves from my trees, which also feeds the roses as the leaves decompose and cuts down on the weeds. In spite of that in the worst heat of summer I water every two days and sometimes every day. We're lucky to have a reservoir nearby and water bills are not outrageous. I do like to have the roses bloom in the summer also since the gardens are all around the house and it would look rather bleak otherwise. If I had to water less I would have fewer but choice tea roses and more drought tolerant plants otherwise in order to cut down on water rather than to have dormant i.e. ugly rose bushes during a large part of the year.

Ingrid

About summer dormancy: none of my roses has ever defoliated and they look fine; they just don't bloom in long dry spells. If we don't get some serious rain before summer they may go drier than they've ever had to, though. It may be interesting.
Ingrid, your soil sounds very different from mine. There seems to be a consensus that roses need a heavy deep soil to go unwatered during droughts.
I WISH it would rain.
Melissa

At one of the workshops at a local nursery, the speaker said of this years weather that he had lived here 50 years and "every year was an unusual weather year."

Some years more rain other years less, some years little rain but lots of fog/clouds, other years extra sun.

Like this year, per the weather channel, Claremont has had about 1" of rain this month instead of the average of 2.6". The effects of the loss of an inch and a half of rain might not sound like much, but when you think of getting only 38% of average it makes a big difference.

Just like 16" average vs 20", is not just 4" less, it 20% less.

Look at the wildflowers this season, to get a good show now, we needed the rain in October and November. We did not get it and now the rain is really too late for those plants. They might drink it in to survive for next season, but the bloom time is pretty much past.

I am looking forward to seeing your project as you work on it!

Thanks all for the input and support. Ingrid what I had come up with to avoid the bleak summer look is to use plants with hips, like 'Safrano'. But still, with just the roses the summer would be too severe. I would underplant with plants like Asphodeline lutea which flowers in winter and has interesting seedpods in summer. Planned this way the garden would look something like a perennial garden back east winding down for winter with Echinacea and Monarda seedheads etc. Ive always liked this look.

Melissa yes you should bribe your teenager for photos of the garden! Regarding cold dormancy, my guess would be that if the plants drop their leaves in winter they may be more dormant at that point than in your summers. And maybe because the teas are subtropical they are too shut down in winter to combat the canker. Some of the California natives are unable to fight off root rots during their summer dormant period but dont have any fungal problems in winter.

Anntn6b thanks for your point on Chinas I know they are maybe more drought resistant than teas but I cant help it teas are "my kind of man"!!

Kippy I'm going to have to get out to Fayes Wildflower Meadow this spring. Because they water the flowers at Rancho Santa Ana I'm sure its still good this year.

Nate

Nate, I would suggest visiting Fayes several times so you can see how the plants change and adapt.

But if you want to go walk in the wild wildflowers, check out Tejon and Windwolves for hikes