Corn meal is corn meal and has about 8% - 9% nitrogen. Although the patented variety claims a higher nitrogen content. If you want to buy it, go to a feed store where it will be cheaper than in the super market. Here it's sold in 25 kg. bags for garden use. That's about 55 lbs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Corn meal gluten

Corn meal is not corn meal but almost.

FOOD grade corn meal is sold in grocery stores. It has been stored under ideal conditions since it was harvested. It also has been finely ground for baking.

FEED grade corn meal is sold in feed stores. It has been stored outdoors under conditions that are not allowed for food grade corn. It has the same nutritional value as food grade but is not ground as evenly and could carry disease. Feed grade corn is used to feed deer, cattle, hogs, chickens, and pets. This is what I use regularly in my garden.

Corn GLUTEN meal is the remains of the corn after the outer edges of the kernel have been removed to make corn syrup. That leaves a higher protein material suitable for animal feed. It is a very fine, dark yellow, dusty material. It has considerably more protein than ordinary corn meal. Corn GLUTEN meal has been patented for use as an organic pre-emergent weed control. If you buy it labeled for weed control you pay the extra license fee. If you buy it in plain brown bags then you don't pay the license fee.

Boy, am I glad I asked that question.
Thank you both for the eye-opener.

Corn gluten meal works as a pre-emergent for a short time only. Frankly I've never had it work anywhere but the lawn and not all that well there. It does work as a fertilizer too so you can mix it in your soil and use it after any seeds have sprouted.

There's also molasses.....dry and liquid that is used in the garden so don't be surprised if you see that at the feed store too.

I never had any luck with any pre-emergent chemicals or corn Gluten meal. CGM makes an excellent organic fertilizer because of the high protein content, so it's not a total loss even if you still get weeds.

How on earth can you say CGM is an organic fertilizer? Unless you simply mean its organic in the scientific sense. Otherwise, the chemical intensive farming of corn should seriously throw any idea of it being organic out the window. In fact, I'd be willing to bet there are more chemicals dumped into the environment using corn products than just using the chemicals outright on a lawn or garden because you have the added processing of corn that makes it even less environmentally friendly. Plus, the corn is nearly always bioengineered corn today. I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that if you go get any corn product from a feed store you will not find an organic section because organic corn is far too expensive to feed to animals and there is so little profit you often can't even find much of it in organic food stores in Indiana where corn is one of our primary food crops. See, organic corn has a quarter of the yield of bioengineered and chemically fertilized corn at best. If cornmeal works, which there seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence that it does, don't delude yourself into thinking that because it comes from a plant that makes it an organic option. Some of you may not care, but some of you might care a lot about being 100% organic and simply hadn't thought of that.

Oh I don't know. Do you want me to type in all caps? Corn, soy, alfalfa, cotton, coffee grounds, milo, and many other nuts, seeds, and beans make great organic alternatives to ammonium sulfate, ammonium nitrate, and the other chemicals in a standard bag of NPK. The organics are all good organic fertilizers because they are high in protein. Chemicals have no protein and therefore are not organic fertilizers.

Corn kernels grow inside a husk and are not directly in contact with the chemicals. Then they are hulled, washed, ground and all sorts of things happen to them. Who knows what residue is left on them. I, for one, fall into your category of, "don't care."

There are as many shades of "organic" as there are shades of "vegetarian." If you want to split hairs and argue when we're on the same basic side of the fence, you'll have to pick someone else to argue with. I bet if you think you are 100% organic I can find someone who is more organic than you and would try to discredit your pitiful attempt at being pure.

Well, I am of the same oppinion as dchall about splitting hair. All that aside, can I ask a question here without getting my head smacked? (crooked grin). I want to keep all the hair (whatever is left) on my head! lol.
Is corn organic or is it not? Doesn't matter how the corn plant itself was fertilized, whether with human/animal waste with all the chemicals in it or whatever else.
Otis

Well said, dshall.

Only problem I ever had with corn meal use was ants. I'll never use that again in the bed around my front porch. Every ant in the tristate came to my yard and tried to carry off the corn meal, one grain at a time. Their journey included paths across my front porch, and anyone sitting there. They can have the rest of the yard, but not my porch or my potato chips.

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Karen

There's many definitions of "organic" depending on how the term is used and in what context but the short answer is yes, corn is organic :-) Perhaps the most basic definition of organic is "of, or relating to, or derived from a living organism", which of course would include corn regardless of what manmade manipulations that product may have undergone during its growth process. In our context here, it is often used to refer to a substance, typically a fertilizer or pesticide, that is derived from an animal or vegetative source. The opposite of that are fertilizers or pesticides that are synthesized or created out of manmade chemicals, often by-products of the petrochemical industry.

Depending on one's personal philosophy, the definition can get very specific.....the "splitting of hairs" described above. But to apply these very specific definitions unilaterally is misleading and not helpful for most gardening purposes. Corn gluten meal IS approved for certified organic production....that should be pretty much the end of the argument :-)

Otis11 asked:

"When people say to use corn meal in connection with gardening and/or composting (to feed to the worms) is it the corn meal for human consumption or is there another kind?"

Anything that was once "alive" could be considered organic. The real question that could be addressed is "how alive is your soil?" If your soil is endowed with organic matter and the microbes to digest that organic matter, those microbes dont care where their food/fuel originated from the most basic level. Those who choose to dogmatize the process are IMO wasting time; for there is no way that I can see where non-organic materials can be kept out of the soil. The good news is that if there is a healthy array of organisms within said soil, these microorganisms can and will deal with them effectively. "Sweating" over weather or not something has been tainted by non-organic sources within the soil food web is again IMO a non-issue.

That said, corn meal from any source could be used as a protein source for the soil food web. Cost as it relates to the "best buy" can be the driving force, as well as the availability of farm grade "meals" is yet another. My experience with using it is that the soil food web likes to eat it from what I have observed. And too, I have never added corn meal or any other meal (alfalfa, soy, feather, or bone) to my compost pile; to me that is a waste of a good food source for my plants. Better to put it near the plant for consumption is my way of getting it to the food web effectively.

Otis11 allow this writer to wish you and your family a "happy new year", as well as all the other members within the community at this time. It has been a few months since my last post, however I have been "lurking" in the background every day enjoying (for the most part) the sharing of community knowledge all this time. Use whatever corn meal you can get for the best price Otis11, just make sure there are organisms within the soil to feed it to your plants. Your head is safe around ole BlutranesÂ

BTW, Karen again your photos are breathtaking. Yours as well as other members who are kind enough to show what using compost, soil, and mulch can do for anyone who is willing to do the work are one of the lights that keep this board shiningÂ

What a sweet thing to say, blutranes. Always the gentleman. And it's so nice to see you on the forum again.

Karen

If ants are a problem with organic fertilizer, try spraying it down with diluted molasses or even plain dissolved table sugar. Ants that go for the protein food sources usually will avoid anything that is sweet. In this case, the corn meal should not be negatively affected by spraying with sugar...unless you are an ant.

Ants love sugar !
This is from the University of Florida :

"Bait Treatments
Bait treatments are effective for control of many types of ants if they eat the bait. You can make your own from boric acid.

1 level teaspoon boric acid.
½ cup corn syrup or honey.
Mix boric acid and honey/syrup.
Heat until boric acid is dissolved.
Cool completely. You dont want to burn yourself!
Mix equal parts water and syrup boric acid mixture.
Place a small amount of mixture in a lid or use an eyedropper to put a small amount of bait where ants will find it.
Be sure to keep bait available to ants for 2 weeks.
Keep bait mixtures out of the reach of children and pets."

Not all ants like sugar and not all ants like protein. The ants we were referring to were the kind that prefer protein food sources. Sugar repels those ants. Fire ants fall in that category.

The recipe you posted is interesting. I've always read that boric acid lost it's effectiveness as an insect killer if it got wet or dissolved. Have you tried it so you could comment on how well this works?

Back in the 70s I made a mix of sugar, molasses, and bread yeast. What a mess! One cup each of sugar and molasses with one teaspoon of yeast. I smeared that on a piece of cardboard and placed the smear in the ant trail outside. It took the ants several days to find it but once they did, WOW! They surrounded it and munched until it was gone. I put out two more smears and they continued to eat it in smaller and smaller numbers for a week. Then they all disappeared. It was GREAT! That was my first venture into natural remedies and it worked!!

Sugar repels ants that prefer protein? I swear this forum is an endless source of fascinating information.

Karen

Hi Karen,
Try this out. Put a piece of chicken skin (or corn meal) on a brick out in the garden and wait for the ants to arrive. Then, in the middle of the ant trail leading to/from the chicken, pile up some table sugar and watch the hijinks! The chicken collecting ants will do anything they can to avoid the sugar. You may get new ants coming to get the sugar but it won't be those chicken eaters.

Armed with this information, organic gardeners, farmers, and ranchers have been spraying their fields with molasses to repel fire ants. When the entire field is coated in sugar, the ants go away. Still more recently the farmers and ranchers have started leaving fire ants along and letting nature take its course. Fire ants are not the top level predator in the fields but they do a good little number on fleas and ticks. Ranchers who have stopped fighting fire ants have also stopped fighting ticks and fleas because they have been eradicated by the fire ants. But the fire ants do not take over. Livestock and pets learn quickly to recognize the distinctive smell of the ants and avoid them. So while fire ants are pretty pesky when YOU are the victim, they are not going to take over the world like was once thought.

If you can make a protein based bait with boric acid in it as was described for a sugar bait above, you could attract the fire ants and get rid of them that way. Spraying with molasses is faster.

First, a Happy New Year back to you Blutranes. Wonderful to hear your voice on the forum. :O)

Second, Karen, I had never seen those photos of your gardens. Nice ones!!

Dchall,

We live in a log home so ants are definitely a concern. We have used boric acid in the past but since we have pets it became a concern with me. What we have been using for the last couple of year is diatomaceous earth and it has worked quite well. The carpenter ants have been kept at bay as well as the smaller native ants.

When using the boric acid in the past we mixed it with icing sugar - equal parts. I am now wondering if the ants were simply repelled by the sugar since these ants love protein and go for the cat's food in the summer when they do get in the house. Hmmmm...

"I swear this forum is an endless source of fascinating information. " I concur Karen!

As per corn meal, I like mixing it with damp alfalfa and then I throw in some bone meal and in the gardens the concoction goes.

You might be able to create a cat-proof container for a mix of cat food dusted with boric acid.

Since I moved to San Antonio in 1981 I've use boric acid freely inside the house with parrots, dogs, and cats. Roaches are the problem here. Boric acid can't keep them out, but it can keep them from multiplying. In this house we dusted boric acid between the walls in each "cell" where the studs are. That should take care of ants, roaches, and termites.

Karen - loved the pics! It almost makes me feel warm looking at your garden. One of these days (years) I'm hoping my yard will grow up to look that good :-)

dchall - interesting recipe for ants. I clipped it. Last summer we noticed we have a bad ant problem in the yard, mostly around the foundation. Will try this maybe and see if it works. The ants mostly just laughed at us when we used the chemicals.

Val

Karen, wrong. Not well said. Dchall completely ignored my second sentence. Scientifically speaking corn is organic and certain chemicals aren't. But, when on a garden forum rather than a chemists forum scientifically isn't generally how the term is used and you all know it. It's not splitting hairs. It's entirely different definitions that some take seriously. I can say I'm black all day long but my lily white skin will make a fool of me for ignoring the definition accepted by most for what black is defined by. It's called language people and there are definitions for a reason. To make communication of particular ideas possible. You base the definition on the context of use and in a garden forum the context isn't generally chemistry. Yeah, there are different shades of vegetarian. But they have accompanying words to differentiate them for a reason. Lacto-Vegetarian, Lacto-ovo vegetarian, or even vegan. All of which have different definitions. It's not splitting hairs. They are entirely different concepts. Period. You want that in all caps dchall?

I didn't say once that I am an organic gardener. Didn't attempt purity despite dchall's "petty attempt" at implying so. Try paying attention. I said bioengineered corn is not organic and it's not. Not in the philosophical sense that the word is used in when speaking of gardening. It's one thing to say "hey, this works!" It's a completely different thing to claim it's organic on a forum that obviously isn't about chemistry. I have every intention of trying the cornmeal after reading what dchall provided on another thread. Plus, bioengineered corn has properties that should actually make it even more effective such as the Bt gene. I just don't plan to mislead people and say I'm using organic means to make myself feel better.

Many people choose organic philosophy of gardening because they feel that the use of chemicals in agriculture is destroying multiple ecosystems and ultimately contributing to the destruction of ours (and I disagree with that reasoning). They also choose organics for the supposed benefit of health (again, I disagree with that reasoning). This actually weighs heavily on their morality when making decisions of whether to use product a or b and out of respect for that it is only fair to be at least a little accurate in what you call organic on a forum that obviously isn't just for scientists that base organic on chemical makeup. Most corn is as non-organic as it gets. You can't, without being a complete hypocrite, claim to be using an organic method if the product came from as non-organic means as possible (assuming you know this, of course) any more than a vegetarian can boycott meat based on animal cruelty and turn around and eat vegetables fertilized with bloodmeal from factory farm animals they are so adamantly opposed to the treatment of. Despite someone else's claim above, the source does matter when you are speaking of the philosophical organics and not the scientific organics.

Original poster: I simply do not know if you are into the whole organic philosophy. I am not. I respect those that try to adhere to it without hypocrisy, though. I look at it like this, I am not a Christian, but I respect those that try to adhere to Christianity without hypocrisy and would not mislead them to commit what they consider a sin whether I consider it a sin or not. I consider myself a little more respecting of people's beliefs than that. My intent in rebutting the "organic" claim was to make clear that it isn't part of any organic philosophy I've ever heard of except for the "I want to claim organics but cheat at it" philosophy and if that matters to you or anyone else that reads this thread and might possibly care about that philosophy then you need to be aware that, yes, you should get it from the baking aisle and not the feed store in bulk. And you will want to look for an organic label.

Joe, I don't care to belabor the point, but it seems you are the only one (at least the only one contributing to this thread) holding on to a definition of "organic" that is different from what most gardeners - forget the scientists - consider to be appropriate and applicable. If it was derived from something that was once alive, it is considered organic. That also happens to be the primary dictionary definition as well. And AFAIK, as yet they have not recreated corn meal in its finished state from chemicals in a test tube - you have to grow the plant to get the kernals to grind the meal. Ergo, corn meal fits the definition of organic.

Now hardcore organic gardening adherents and those who are growing for organic certification may very well limit the sources of the products they include for use, including anything that was genetically manipulated or bioengineered, but that is a very refined definition that is limited to those specific situations. Organic gardening in its broadest and most widely accepted definition is the avoidance of fertilizers or pesticides that were synthesized from chemicals. If the product was derived from any source that was once alive - a plant or animal - it is rightly considered organic to the broadest audience regardless of any certification that may be attached to it.

Hi everyone,
the reason I came to this site, I want to know about compost so instead of throwing all the veggie scraps and spoiled produce (too long in the fridge) banana peels etc etc, and turning around to BUY compost in a bag, I was trying to be smart and turn my garbage into compost.
Then I read about "corn meal, molasses" and some other good stuff for composting which is a first for me. You throw food "waste" onto the pile, not good stuff for baking. Everybody else here seem to be OK with that and that made me post my question about corn meal.
As a newbie in gardening, I am interested in the scientific background of things up to a certain point. I hope I am not offending anybody, to remind the reader that this is a gardening forum. If I were to find out to the bottom of things scientifically, I would not go to a garden"club"!
OK, back to the term "organic" for gardening. Everybody knows that somewhere along the chain of farming, chemicals in varying degrees has touched everything, intentionally or unintentionally. It is not logical to be otherwise. So, how far is one prepared to researched it back when something was really pure organic? Sorry for babbling, typos and grammar mistakes. Didn't know that one has to be very careful in what one is saying without the risk of opening a can of worms.
(If it were only real worms, I will gladly have it for my worm bin. lol)

Hey Otis - just keep asking questions. As you already know, you will get all kinds of answers. Just "read and weed" through everything and pick out what works for you.

The hardest thing to do on ANY forum is to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. Just because someone posts in bold or caps, doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. The same can be said for someone who posts the same drivel over and over.

A forum by nature is a place where you will get a huge variety of answers because of the variety of people. When I first came here, there was (is) a poster that posted the same thing over and over, so much so that I thought that person had to know what they were talking about. I've since discovered that it's not always the case.

Other people (in this thread) just like banging their heads against the wall. If you take everything with a grain of salt (or corn meal), and just let everyone have their fun, it can be quite entertaining, and sometimes you learn some really interesting stuff.

Val - who loves it when a thread goes around a corner (insert big smiley)

Hi Otis, welcome.

Most of the regulars here are very friendly. Many are very knowledgeable and happy to share their knowledge. If you follow regularly you will get to know the fun folks, the knowledgable folks, and who the crabby, always negative ones are. Stick around and you'll learn a lot. Don't let the few crabs scare you off.

You are to be commended for wanting to compost. Some of us (me!), do compost as you describe- i.e. I use organic "trash" to compost. I never buy anything to feed into my compost.(OK, I'm Cheap). I don't use much fertilizer, and if I do, it's a little organic stuff around the plant, not into the compost. But if I have old cornmeal or molasses sitting around, I would compost it. Very different from buying it for the purpose of composting.

Karen

Hi Val,
thanks for your advice. And you're right, it wouldn't be so much fun otherwise and I've enjoyed reading your comments.
Otis.

I never buy anything to feed into my compost.

Me neither! I'm from Cheapville too :-)

Raising a teenage granddaughter and a dumb dog is more than enough to keep my purse/wallet busy. And......I'm saving up to buy a digital camera so that when I do get my "naked" yard going, I can post pics!

Anyone got suggestions on a "good but cheap" digital camera? Is there even such a thing?!

Val

One last kick to the dead horse:

Gardengal, you seem to be right that I am apparently the only one that views "organic" to mean more than simply "derived from something once living" in this thread (which has to do with chemistry and the carbon). You're wrong that most gardeners think of that as organic. Pick up any organic gardening magazine or book if you like or just go to the top of the organic forum of this website. I'm guessing there is a reason the definition of organic isn't so grossly simplistic. It states:

"Organic gardening is most easily defined as a philosophy that stresses the use of naturally occurring substances and friendly predators and avoiding man-made chemical fertilizers and pesticides."

I bet that definition is there because more people than just me think it's a fairly accurate and widely accepted definition, but try to make me the lone gunman all you like. And most people that try to use organic philosophy simply wouldn't say, "the corn is okay because I didn't fertilize it with an abundance of chemicals" or categorize bioengineered corn as naturally occurring. Silly me for using Gardenweb's definition while posting on Gardenweb.

I'll stop banging my head now, Val. Out of curiosity, why is defending what I said considered banging my head against the wall?

Hey Joe! Happy New Year :-)

My head banging statement comes from the fact that you like to push peoples buttons, especially with statements like: How on earth can you say CGM is an organic fertilizer?

He can say it because that's what he wants to say, or that's what he believes, or he doesn't know what he's talking about. It doesn't matter. It's the way you charge in and try and make everyone be scientific or exact about what they say.

I'm pretty laid back so I don't stress over too much but when I want something clarified I don't try and call them on it right off the bat...well...maybe sometimes I do :-)

Anyway, hope I didn't offend. It's actually kind of funny to watch you trying to make other people change or conform to your idea of how things should be or written or stated. Except for your lack of white space your posts are kind of fun 'cause.....well...let's just leave it at that.

Val

PS - I can't help it. I just can't get emotional about compost. Sorry Loid!

AAACCCCKKKK!!!

When last I looked, this was the "Soil, Compost, and Mulch" forum. As with each forum on GardenWeb the purpose of this forum is as follows:

"This forum is for the discussion of all aspects of soil--including topics like creating a healthy, balanced soil, methods of composting and using mulches effectively."

There is no mention of organics or anything related to organic gardening. Thus, those who choose to use synthetic fertilizers, GM seed, or any other form of synthetic chemicals are welcomed to post on this forum. While I may not agree with their gardening/farming practices, their techniques work just as well if not better when combined with soil, compost, or mulch. Those who use synthetics have offered many a good, informative, and if one has an open mind, different direction that could be taken to a given conversation on this forum. Their knowledge has always been much welcomed within the community, for their solutions can be "converted" into organic solutions if dogma is kept out of the conversation.

Living in a farming community, I have no choice but to learn how to deal with people/farmers who use synthetics. Each year my compost tea brewer has to be cranked up to counteract some synthetic spray that has invaded my "airspace". Yet, each year more and more of these synthetic inclined neighbors make their way to my home to get a "lil-bit of that good smellin dirt that grows such good maters". Toleration of differences and insight into how to deal with those things that cant be controlled can and does allow for a very productive organic garden I create each year. Perfect it may not be, but satisfying to ones spirit it is to do ones best

Blutranes

I agree blutranes. The "my organic is better than your organic" discussion would be better handled on the organic gardening forum.