g'day juliana,

i'm going with the no-till here.

come check our site and see how we do our gardens.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: len's garden page

What do you mean by bugs? I have lots of bugs, but few are bad.

Oh Len, what a FABULOUS website!!!! I'm totally in love with the straw bale raised gardens. Just sent that off to my best friend who has been struggling to build wood frames.

Pablo, last year I was invaded. The worst were the cucumber beetles because they gave wilt to my cucumbers and melons. I didn't get a single melon thanks to those buggers. There actually weren't so many of them because I hand picked them and tried using Neem oil as a last resort (also sprinkled lacewing larvae, used insecticidal soap). But enough of them to infect my curburits (sp). Both striped and spotted.

Then there were the leafhoppers. THAT was an infestation and I couldn't get rid of them. They did a lot of damage on everything.

I also had aphids and flea beetles (major), but the aphids were easy enough to deal with, and the flea beetles I get every year because I grow a lot of eggplants. I use dish soap and water on them and it works okay. Plus the damage is really only ornamental. They don't hurt the fruit.

I had some other bad bugs, but I've forgotten now what. oh, slugs, but easy to handle. Some other minor things.

It was the cuke beetles and the leafhoppers that did me in.

This year my plan of attack includes releasing ladybugs at the start and maybe a second release later in the season, plus planting radishes among the cukes/melons, some tansy and queen anne's lace to attract beneficials. (Maybe in pots since they can get out of control..haven't quite decided)
And marigolds...have been trying to learn which is the most pungent of the heirlooms. I've always planted marigolds in the garden (per my grandmother's advice), but the kind you buy has been bred not to stink.

And then as a last resort, I'm also planting the most resistant cukes and melons I can find: County Fair cucumber and ananas (?) melon. I'll still plant my old faves, but at least I'll hopefully have a backup that survives if the cuke beetles return with their dirty mouths.

No-till, for so many reasons. The most important reason to me is to retain the beneficial soil fungi that give your soil permeability to air and water. These beneficial fungi can grow to inches, feet, yards, and longer into the soil. Picture a loaf of bread where mold has been allowed to grow. Once the mold starts, it spreads through the bread reasonably quickly with hairy looking "hyphae," or strands. If you can stand to look closely at it you'll see that the hairy strands can get pretty long. That is what you need growing in your soil, long stranded fungi. When you till you break the strands and kill the fungus. Then you have to recreate the ideal growing conditions again before the fungi will grow back. When the soil is fluffed up by tilling, you don't have the ideal fungal growing conditions any more.

Why do you want long fungal strands? Because at the far end they reach out deep into the soil to bring back nutrients and water to the fungus. Back at the near end, near the surface, the fungal strands attach themselves to the root of the plants where the plants give off excess sugars. The fungus takes sugars from the plant in exchange for nutrients found elsewhere in the soil. If you leave the soil untilled and only mow the top off of your crops, the roots will die back in a natural way that allows the fungi to go more or less dormant. If you plant new plants by drilling the seed (or plantlets) into the soil with a small hole, the fungi will revive with the moisture and root sugars to begin a new symbiotic relationship with the new plants. This gives the new plant a head start that can't happen in a tilled soil.

Another feature of the fungi is the ability to swell up with moisture and shrink back when the fungal strands dry out. When the fungal strands swell, they push aside the soil particles ever so slightly. When they shrink the soil particles remain in place allowing air into the soil between the fungus and the soil. These air pockets, or pores, allow moisture to flow back into the soil when it rains or you irrigate. With hundreds of millions of these fungal strands in each cubic inch of soil, you have a soil that is aerated the way Mother Nature intended it.

And speaking of Mother Nature, as I like to do in these tilling discussions, my other thought is that if She had intended the soil to be tilled instead of walked on, She would have covered the Earth with hogs instead of cattle, deer, sheep, horses, antelope, elephant, giraffe, buffalo, bison, and other grazing animals. The worldwide population of warthogs, javalina, and other rooting animals is relatively small.

All of this requires you to use no chemicals that would kill the fungi. Chemicals that do that include all sulfurs and sulfates, baking soda, and other more conventional fungicides. If you are using these materials, you probably may as well till.

I think tilling will impact mycorrhizae. You can google for this or check out

thread on the subject of mycorrhizae

Helpful, interesting info about the fungi, guys. Thank you.

I think I've decided not to till.

Next question...what do I do with all the compost I've been making, just spread it on the ground? And do I just dig a hole to plant my transplants in, toss in some compost and call that good?

Second question: I'm planning on having my soil tested this spring. A home kit last year said I was very deficient on the three main nutrients (NPP) I'm sure this year's test won't be much different because I only added some purchased bags of composted manure last spring. The test results will surely say add xxx to your soil. How do I do that if I don't till in xxx (sulfur, lime, whatever)?

I think it's real acid. (Or is it real alkaline? No I think it's acid) It's so (acid?) that we can't use pine needles as mulch because it would kill everything. How do I fix that if I don't till in something?

I just know I'm going to have this big list of recommendations for my soil when I get my tests back.

One side of my house (I just moved into this house two years ago and the yards were neglected) is very shady. Big pine tree and big tulip tree and lots of bare dirt. I mean bare. Nary a weed nor blade of grass.

I spent some time talking with the master gardener at our local extension office this fall (who is not organic at all) and she said if NOTHING was growing, it indicated really bad soil. Her advice was to till the whole thing up and till in a boatload of compost.

I wasn't going to till because it just seemed too extreme, but I was thinking of taking my garden rake, kind of raking a bit on top (maybe half an inch) and adding as much compost as I can, kind of raking it together and calling that good. Then planting a few ground covers and see what grows, if anything. I was going to try:

vinca minor
pachysandra
wintergreen
Irish moss

Is this a good idea or not? It's just dirt, and some pine needles under that pine tree. There are three nice old spireas against that side of the house plus a layer of black plastic. I was going to tear back the plastic and plant some things like Lily of the Valley. But beyond that is just plain dirt until you get to the neighbor's fence.

I also thought about just going to the woods and digging up some woods moss and seeing if that would grow. I love that moss.

Julianna- you can't really draw an absolute conclusion on the EFFECT of tilling vs. no tilling. Bugs take a while to find your yard. I remember that I had near zero pest issues the first year in my garden at my current house. The next year I had bugs. After that I figured out what would control them well (for me it was squash vine borers- bt really kicked their slimy butts!).

You might try ladybugs, but few stay in the yard (I hear). I did this and a couple years later have a good population of them- but again- no saying it was the ones that I brought in. Supposedly they'll look for new locations the day after released.

Pine needles won't kill everything. They're a great mulch. There's a lot of misconception about what is acidic vs. what will make soil too acidic. Under pine trees, however, plants often don't get much light. Further- pine trees release turpenes (from which we get tupentine) as a chemical weapon against other plants that might compete. This combines effect is what keeps the understory fairly clear when you get much past the woodline in a pine forest. (I'm currently removing all the pines in my woods to make way for hardwood species including rare natives like black walnut) Now- pines do well in an acid soil, but that doesn't mean that they made it acidic in the first place.

I don't know all the species that you listed just by names, but wintergreen may do very well at least as a ground cover. Good shade species should do well, and yes- scratching in a little compost is an effective way to use it. You can also plant what you want, then just throw compost or other amendments on top (and put the needles back as a mulch over that).

In Illinois you most likely have clay soil, about the only place I have seen sand is around Lake Michigan. Start this year by contacting your local office of the University of Illinois USDA Cooperative Extension Service about a soil test for base nutrient and soil pH levels, relying on the home test kits is not a good idea because they are very unreliable. The UI test will not have a Nitrogen report since that is very dependant on soil temperature and varies greatly throughout the growing season. When you can get out there dig in with these simple soil tests to see what your soil really is;
1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell.

5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.
These, along with the UI soil test, will give you a good idea of where you are and what you need to do to make your soil good and healthy. Insect pests can be a problem for the time it takes your soil to reach a good healthy state but then pest will decline and if great restraint is practiced in using broad spectrum poisons, which also kill off the beneficial insects that help control pests, you will see fewer and fewer problems.

Here is a link that might be useful: University of Illinois CES

Kimmer, these are good tests...I'll do them when it warms up.

Unfortunately our extension office doesn't do soil tests, so I'm going to have to find an independent lab. The lab they recommended said they do testing for nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus, and then organic matter.

Pablo, good info. It's interesting about the bugs, because I didn't have any bad bugs (other than flea beetles) the first year. Then last year, year 2, I was swamped.

The gardening in other homes I've done over the year, well, I doused everything in Sevin. So I'm just now learning to cope...

Wow, till v no-till normally starts fierce fights.

Peaceful Valley Garden Supply, www.groworganic.com , offers a soil test beyond just NPK, pH, and humus levels at about twice the cost MSU charges. There are many other soil test labs out there. Since undergraduate students soil science students are doing soil tests as part of their course work I'm surprised the University has stopped doing them. But then again some of our retro legislatures may think that the University was competing with private labs and worked to cut a way for the school to get operating money from a source other than the legislature.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peacefull Valley soil test

julianna, when you have some free time, take a look at the Natl Sustainable Ag Info Service site. There's a lot of info about cuc beetles and bio alternatives to fight them. Good luck. (Sorry this isn't soil related but very good stuff.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Cucumber Beetles: Organic and Biorational IPM

Kimmer, I live downstate in Illinois, probably about three hours away from U of I in Champaign. I don't know if the lack of testing is statewide, or just certain counties.

Bean counter, I actually discovered that site recently and it's the BEST info on cucumber beetle ever. It talks about life cycles, differences between striped and spotted (I had both), predators and more. VERY comprehensive. I would recommend that page over any other if you want to learn as much as you can about that pest.

At this point, I've decided against nematodes (because I have both kinds, and one kind migrates in later in the season....that's the one I had so much trouble with rather than the early ones that hurt seedlings, and nematodes won't affect the migrators). But I'm going for: putting as many plants in to attract predators, foil under the plants, radishes as a barrier.

I'm also thinking of planting a trap crop, a squash, to try and give them an alternative. I've lost the url now, but there's a site out there that has a numerical system on which curburits (sp) are favored by the beetles. The higher the number, the more they like it.

And then I'm also going to try to grow some resistant varieties of cucumbers and honeydew.

Thanks for the great links, Kimmer and bean counter!

I'm not convinced by the fungus argument. Broken hyphae don't die - they just grow new hyphae on their own, at least that's my understanding.

Maybe the extra O2 or fluffing is hard on them, on the other hand tilling usually doesn't pulverize soil but rather turn it, in chunks. The size of a hyphae is so small that the vast majority of fungal cells will be inside the chunk, where no fluffing happened.

Also, considering how quickly a fungus can grow, my guess is that balance is re-established quickly.

Also, if turning is bad for soil, why is it good for compost? Could you not apply the same logic to a compost pile, that you do to soil? And, compost reaches a balance on it's own in a matter of weeks. Is organically - rich soil really so different?

I turn my lasagna beds, by hand, in the spring, in order to have a deeper set of layers in which to plant (basically figuring that last year's broken down layers = one more material that counts as a layer in the new lasagna.)

I reason that I am not disturbing anything under the beds (below about 8 inches) when I turn by hand, and so I see my method - which is always being modified as I learn - as a sort of compromise on the till-no till question. My sense is that the soil is easier to work with with some turning, and this may be a variable from one area to the next.

Would you consider doing half - and - half with your garden and reporting back?

I'm not trying to start any dissension, though.

"Could you not apply the same logic to a compost pile, that you do to soil?"

Nope. The hot phase activity that benefits from turning are bacteria- not fungus. This is also to get the uncomposted stuff to the middle, break up mats, even out moisture. Fungi are normally associated with a somewhat different decomp process. Rototilling and deeper tilling may put them in a zone where they don't readily grow, however. Not sure...

I also, however, am not sure that serious damage is done by maybe double digging etc- propagation of fungus (aside from spores) usually involves breaking it up and introducing new food sources. They do grow at staggering rates.

I should have been more clear.

The logic I am referring to, is that compost behaves in a predictable and rapid way with regular turning, due to the microorganisms having a short generation time and so on.

I don't see why microorganisms in the soil would behave particularly differently, as they generally grow with similar (ie short generation times, breaking down organic matter, etc) patterns. "Just add food."

Because fungi have extended networks, they act very differently than a big mess of tiny mixed up bacteria. They eat differently, breathe differently, respond to temperature differently, etc.

Expecting that thermophilic bacteria and these fungi would respond the same to a certain stimulus is nearly equivalent to saying that a toad should breed more successfully at sub-zero temperatures because maybe a polar bear does.

Maybe that's not even as close because polar bears and frogs at least come from the same kingdom of life, whereas fungi and bacteria don't (fungus vs. moneran).

OK- that may be an over simplification, but they do different things for the soil, and therefore may need different treatment. For instance- fungus food is definitely not necessarily good bacteria food.

In my understanding, most of the organisms that decompose organic matter in a compost pile, are fungi. The heat raising step is primarily desirable to kill weeds and pathogens, but the decomposition is mostly a fungal process, as I understand it.

There are numerous bacteria and archaea in the soil --- a 2005 article puts it at over a million different species per gram. So, there are important fungi and bacteria in compost, and there are important fungi and bacteria in soils.

I maintain that the general qualities of rapid growth, short generation time, heterotrophy, etc - outweighs considerations about the idea that they can't be compared on the basis of evolutionary distance.

If you found a plant that bred well at arctic temperatures, then you could compare its reproductive preferences to a polar bear even though they are in different kingdoms.

I suspect this is not the sort of discussion the original poster was hoping for.

LOLOL.

I like the way this thread has turned. As a staunch believer in the "no single solution" theory, I wouldn't say no-till is always the right way to go.

I also enjoy the work aspect of gardening, so I'm not as interested in the Ruth Stout school of never digging in the dirt.

For general gardening purposes, I agree with Patty. I don't think there's anything wrong with tilling, double-digging and otherwise turning or forking the soil. If fact, I think, more often than not, it's beneficial.

I've read Ploughman, and I'm not talking about large-scale agricultural applications here. I'm talking about small-scale gardening practices. As nice as it sounds to say that simply spreading a few inches of compost on top of the soil is as good for the soil as digging it in, I don't buy it.

All that said, for the most part, I don't till my flower and nursery beds, once I have the soil the way I want it. I do turn OM into my veggie beds, frequently twice a year.

I have no idea if I have happy hyphae in my soil, but most of my visible plants are very happy. ;>)

Ya, but it's more fun!

I guess that my main arguement about that would be that first- composting is aimed at decomposition of OM. Cultivating fungi in the soil is aimed at a variety of other goals which do include use of nutrient in OM, but also include water retention (for the sake of water retention rather than continuing decomp alone), mining minerals from incorporated soil (a much different process than decomp of OM), establishment of symbiotic relationship with plants, and a number of other things that we're still just discovering.

While I agree that tilling is not a "nuclear option" that ultimately destroys all fungi never to be seen again, I also think that tilling is not exactly conducive to establishing the myc fungi necessary.

An example- I have clover and other more interesting legumes growing in my yard. The myc fungi have formed strong associations with the roots of these plants. This makes these fungi stronger and dominant. Tilling in certain other OM, as well as the clover etc. would create an opportunity for bacterial domination as well as for other fungi to get a foothold. I like MY myc fungi. Bacteria and fungi are thought to impact the pH level of the soil very differently. Not only do I want to manage a fungal dominant soil, but I have specific fungal species that took years to really flourish.

"I also, however, am not sure that serious damage is done by maybe double digging etc- propagation of fungus (aside from spores) usually involves breaking it up and introducing new food sources. They do grow at staggering rates."

It sets the fungi back about a year so if you dig/till yearly you never catch up.

the reason for no till is that you bring new weed seeds up to the surface where they will germinate. When you establish a new garden area, it takes a couple of years to get the weeds under control. If you turn your garden after that you will have to begin all over fighting the weeds. There are so many weed seeds in the soil you can never get rid of them. But leaving them burried down in the soil where they don't see the sunlight will keep them from germinating.

Yes, it will change the soil structure. But this can be a good thing in some gardens. Unless you garden on a slope where erosion is a problem then this isn't a problem.

Julianna, I grow some rather smelly marigolds. If you want to send me a SASE I would be glad to send you a lot of seeds. Drop me an email. I find that they repel rabbits so I guess that is stinky enough. :-) I don't like how they smell, myself, but they are lovely bicolored ones, about a foot tall and wide per plant is how they grow.

About bugs, the first year you have a garden someplace, usually you are lucky and the bugs don't find you. By the second year, you get a lot of visitors. Then the good and bad bugs start to fight it out, and you do what you can to repel/squish the bad bugs. I have always been an organic gardener, and that is my experience anyway.

I have so many ladybugs I even have them in the house. Real ones, not the imitation ones (I took them to the county extension to ask.) We get a lot of old fruit running through our house, so lots of fruit flies that the ladybugs can eat. Kind of embarassing to have nature taking its course INSIDE THE HOUSE but oh well.

I till the ground the first year and not afterwards, unless making a raised lasagna bed and then I don't till at all. Mostly because it works and I am lazy, although I tell myself it is for the fungi. :-)

Marcia

Tilling increases the amount of oxygen in the soil, which leads to faster breakdown of soil organic matter.

So if you usually need to till in compost twice a year, you might be better off applying it to the surface and covering with mulch.

In this way you add organic matter to the soil regularly, while not increasing the rate in which it is being depleted.

I add layers of coffee grounds, grass clippings, shredded leaves, etc, as they are available all year round to the soil surface in and around my planting areas and it has worked well so far.

Another interesting option is to use seed balls to plant without disturbing the soil in any way. Its really an interesting idea, and something I will try this spring on some fallow farmland.

Tilling is a suspect in global warming, some test going on in Ca to measure CO2 release from tilling.

I always heard to plant marigolds to defeat nematodes but somewhere a few years ago, I read that it was the French Marigolds that did the trick. I don't think it has to do with the smell because you are trying to repel a soil borne pest. There is a chemical released by the roots that does the repelling.
Anyone out there have any more specific info on that.
Also, you could do a search on companion planting. The planting of different plants close together that helps them both to grow better.
Mike