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Ponds & Aquatic Plants

gfci vs. gfi whats the difference?

15 years ago

im installing wiring myself for my pond pump, so whats the difference between the two.

and whats the difference between receptable gfci, and the circuit breaker type?

ive been told to put it before all the wiring to the outside, but does that protect the pump cable too? or do i need to install another one by the pump outlet?

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Comments (12)

horton
15 years ago
They are both Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters and can be either a wall mounted receptacle type or a panel installed breaker type.
Either is required to be installed, by code, to protect persons against electric shock, around ponds swimming pools, bathrooms, laundry rooms, garages and other situations where water/moisture could cause problems.

Around a pond the receptacle type monitors the pump, a UV Light or any other device, that is plugged into it and Should trip the power in a ground fault condition. It would cost you about $20.00.

A panel installed GFCI breaker protects the whole circuit, against overload and ground fault all the way out to one or more ordinary receptacles and whatever is plugged into them. It could cost you about $100.00.

Ether type should be checked/tested every month [see manufacturers instructions] to be sure it is working properly. They have been known to fail during a ground fault situation.
"Horton"
infernokoi
Original Author
15 years ago
heres one i found on the lowes website and its $35 is it the right type? http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12812-296-HOM120GFI&detail=desc&lpage=none

and what's the white wire hanging there for?
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OK, so if I replace all four, how would I wire them? The instructions say to remove the existing receptacle and check which black wire is hot (i.e., the source from the panel). Connect that and its corresponding neutral to the LINE. Connect the other hot/neutral to LOAD. Grrr, grumble, %^$%@$#. That's the problem with one-size-fits-all wiring instructions. If you replace just one receptable (the first receiving power), and want to have it protect the other three then, by all means, follow those instructions above. But if you are replacing all four, read on. I agree with Billhart in that individual GFIs are more a matter of convenience than extra protection and it certainly does help eliminate confusion when one receptacle stops working. You don't have to figure out which GFI receptacle(s) actually tripped and, for that reason alone, it's not a bad idea. But the worst case, IMHO, is to have four successive GFCIs, each "protected" by others upstream of it. That creates nothing but the maximum potential for confusion and does little or nothing for safety. "I'm using a pretty basic Leviton. I think the model is 7599." With that model, there's no problem wiring both the feed wires and the pass-on wires to the LINE side. (Forget about the LOAD side.) In the link you supplied, the two neutrals would be secured by the screw in the upper right of the pic. The hots would go in the holes on the lower right (securing screw not visible). Note that since you would not be using one receptacle to protect others down the line (and are wiring on line side only), it is not necessary to figure out which of two black wires is the source from the panel. [As to the consequences of reversing line vs load terminals, in the case of GFCI models more than a few years old, it used to "work". (That is, the receptacle would deliver power, but actual GFI protection was lost.) In the case of newer models on the shelves today, Billhart is correct: They just don't "work" at all and the tiny indicator light on the face will reflect a dead outlet condition.] The reason some folks are hesitant to recommend putting two wires into paired terminal holes on the back of receptacles has to do with another type of wiring known as "backstabbing", where the screw did not bear down on both wires to secure the connection. Backstabbed receptacles have caused a lot of problems over the years and most sparkies now avoid backstabbed outlets like the plague. With the model you propose? The screws are designed to clamp two wires so, unless there's some local code prohibiting it (rare, I believe), you should be fine. "Most kitchens nowadays that I see have a GFCI at all locations near the sink. If they aren't feed to each other, how are they wired?" It's a good question. All new kitchens (those conforming to code, that is) have two separate circuits to feed the countertop receptacles. That requirement is in response to a rather large increase in the power demands during the past couple of decades to feed all those fancy machines and accessories--large six-slice toasters, cuisinarts, blenders, mixers, dough makers, space-age coffee makers and so forth. Thus, while one receptacle often feeds another, it isn't necessarily a single daisy chain, so to speak. Usually, outlet #1 feeds #3 and #5, while outlet #2 feeds #4 and #6, or something along those lines. (Don't merely assume this; it's only an example.) Since your original wiring didn't include GFI receptacles, it's a fair bet that your countertop is fed the "old way"--by a single circuit, but that's just guesswork. It's still possible that there are two circuits involved and that's what Billhart was alluding to when he mentioned a MWBC (multiwire branch circuit). That entails a three-wire feed (black, red and white conductors) to carry two circuits in one cable, using a shared neutral. Soooo, making a long story short, if you happen to have a MWBC with both black and red hot wires, pay attention to wire color when you remove an old recepacle. If it was fed by a red wire, then wire the new GFCI to the two REDs, not the blacks. Make sense?
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How could I test for internal leakage in the fence charger? Use a good high impedance DMM set on a megohms resistance scale. Measure resistance from hot and neutral pins on the power plug to the charger's output terminals, to the case of the charger, and to the ground pin on the power plug. Be sure you connect the DMM leads with clips - if you hold them with your fingers you'll measure your body resistance. From Ohm's law (current in amps = voltage in volts / resistance in ohms) you can calculate leakage current. Most GFIs will trip at 5ma (0.005 amps) leakage current, IIRC. Of course, the charger has to be unplugged when you do this. If it has a switch, make sure the switch is on. When I was using electric fence a few years ago, I never had any problems like this. However, I used a DC powered charger with a wall wart.
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My fiber ONC was mounted outside the house, but the power supply was installed in the garage and the 12V or whatever the ONC needs for power just is fed through the same holes that the cable/network wiring come in. Anyhow, GFCI's have two sets of terminals for HOT and NEUTRAL. On set is called the LINE side and that is fed by your incoming power from the circuit breaker. The other set is called the LOAD side and they are connected to the "protected" side of the GFCI (as if you stuck these wires into the pins on the front of the outlet like it was a plug). This allows that one GFCI receptacle to protect the other outlets. What you likely need to do if you add GFCI's elsewhere and no longer need them to be connected to the feeder is to remove the wires from the LOAD terminals and then connect them to the line side. If your GFCI has a provision for multiple wires on the LINE terminals, you can just place them there. Otherwise, you'll have to run a short piece of wire from the GFCI load terminals and then wirenut that wire, the incoming feed, and the wire going to your other GFCI together. (The grounds are likely already connected this way...grounds don't actually go "through" the GFCI).
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GFCI outlets are NOT "breakers." Really?! Now you want to talk semantics? It's a gizmo that senses an electrical condition and breaks the circuit. It's a breaker by any reasonable definition of the word. Why do you think other English-speaking countries refer to it as a residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB)? Yes, there are other types of circuit breakers. But that's besides the point (and I did list them for you). Traditionally, in US residential electrical wiring, we combine ground fault detection with over current detection, when the breaker is located in a breaker box; but we separate the functions when ground fault protection happens somewhere else. Other than convention, there really is no reason one way or another, and in fact once you get into other types of installations or into other countries, things look different. As for GFCIs being labeled misleadingly as they don't actually test for ground, that's technically true. I give you that. But in practice the term is a pretty good short-hand. Electricity doesn't just leak out of your wires. It can only go back to a place that it has a relative potential to. In the case of mains voltage, that has to be either the other hot or the neutral. And we don't really care much about short-circuits with other circuits or about multiwire branch circuits. Yes, they'll trip a GFCI. But that's not the primary type of fault we want to protect from. Overcurrent and arc fault devices already handle this case pretty well. So, that only leaves current that travels back through the ground, the ground rod, and then to the point where neutral is bonded to it. That's a ground fault. Or you can call it an unexpected-current-through-ground-to-neutral-protection-device, but that's even more of a mouth-full than GFCI.
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horton
15 years ago
The white wire coming out of the Square D, 20Amp single pole, GFC breaker, shown there, ties onto the neutral bar in the breaker panel.
Without it being tied in, the breaker would not function under ground fault conditions.

If I were you, since you did not know what the white wire was for, I would seek professional help, in doing the installation.
It maybe safer for you!
"Horton"
billinpa
15 years ago
Dont double a GFCI (breaker box mounted) and a GFI (socket type).They will work against each other and odd things will happen. One or both would will trip with any flucuation of current.

If you are adding a seperate circuit and the house is open to run new wires then a GFCI breaker in the box would be better. (recommended)

If adding to an existing circuit then the GFI recepticle would be best.
docsmith
14 years ago
As I recall years ago, Article 100 NEC states a GFI is a motor protector, a GFCI is a people protector. Further I checked the prices on line, a HOM120 GFI lists for $141.00 a HOM120 GFCI lists for under $40.00. Go figure.
horton
14 years ago
GFIC and GFI are the same thing.
Both sets of initials are used for the same device, be it a breaker type or a wall mounted/ receptacle type.

Ground Fault [Cricuit] Interrupters have nothing to do with electrical motor protection.
They are required by code, to be installed, under certain conditions, to protecting people against electrical shock.

Below is an extract from an article by Larry Dimock, in which he explains the use of the initials, GFCI and GFI.

GFI or GFCI
A ground-fault interrupter. A device to prevent electrocution, which serves also as a receptacle or (less commonly) as a breaker. I consider the letters "GFCI" confusing because they stand for "ground-fault circuit interrupter" and the word "circuit" is vague and distracting. "GFI" clearly states the function it performs: "ground-fault interrupter". Since 1973 Code has required GFI protection for more and more receptacle locations in homes. If connected to properly, a GFI receptacle is also able to sense and disrupt ground-faults at any standard receptacles wired on from it. Learn More about GFIs.

The link below is to the complete Larry Dimock article

Here is a link that might be useful: Article by, Larry Dimock.
johnkr
14 years ago
Would it not be better to have a ground fault receptacle near the pond as compared to a GFI breaker at the box inside you home? Especially if the outlet at the pond is a distance from the breaker box in the home. I think milliseconds would count when being exposed to electrical voltage and the distance to the interrupter would matter.
lsst
14 years ago
We have three 20 amp receptacle boxes at our pond and a dedicated GFCI breaker box is located 20 feet away at the side of the house.
The electrician did it that way to protect the line to the receptacles as well as the receptacles.
Even though the line is buried in conduit, if for some reason it is ever torn up by digging equipment etc., It will trip the breaker.
horton
14 years ago
John, it is so quick that it should trip before you could blink your eye or your heart makes a beat.
I can remember seeing a demonstration of a prototype GFCI back in the 1960's and man did that device trip the circuit fast, it seemed instantaneous, no matter the distance from the actual ground fault's point of contact.

The way lsst's electrician did the installation is the Cadillac way, of covering all the bases, everything from start to finish, is protected against a ground fault.

But having a GFCI receptacle adjacent to the pond is all the NEC/CEC require, to protect a person from electrical shock injury/death. The latter, is of course, the less expensive way to do the installation. But it is equally effective in saving a life, if all conditions are met*.

At a trip speed of less than 1/40th of a second from a current leakage of 5 milliamps the GFCI's internal trip circuit is reacting super fast, but you could, depending on the person and other circumstances,still feel a real "kick" from that 5millamps of current entering your body.

Example. If you were up a ladder, you could easily fall off it, due to your reaction of that quick short shock and die from the fall.
* If you are interested, you could read the two bottom paragraphs in this other article about GFCI safety, that I have linked below.
"Horton"

Here is a link that might be useful: GFCI Safety.
drh1
14 years ago
I have a GFI out by the pond. Why? Horton would say it's because I'm a cheap Yankee!! LOL And while that may be true, the real reason is that I'm too lazy to walk all the way back to the circuit breaker box every time I have to reset it. And, yes, I do manage to trip it periodically when I plug/unplug something.
---David
jalal
14 years ago
Don't know what the codes are in US but here the GFCI breaker is requirred on all outdoor wiring and must be a separate line from any other receptacles. IOW all outdoor plugs must be on a separate circuit with a GFCI breaker in the house box or garage wherever electrical panel is.
horton
14 years ago
The Prof said,
"And, yes, I do manage to trip it periodically when I plug/unplug something."

That should have read " Cheap & Klutzy Yankee"! LOL
Keep the didgits clear Prof!

Jalal, the U.S. electrical code, [NEC] requires the same type of installation for GFCI's, as that in Canadian code [CEC].
"Horton"

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