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reddirt_gw

mate for viburnum nudum winterthur

21 years ago

hi , i just bought the viburnum at a nursery and have since found out that it won't set fruit without a mate. who do i pick for the mate? the same genus or the same genus and species? sorry, i may sound dumb. also how far away from one another can they be planted to still get a nice fruit display? i don't have room to plant VERY close to the original viburnum.

Comments (106)

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you both. One more question after reading that other thread I am a bit dizzy! I would like to buy a viburnum opulus var americum or american cranberry bush would it cross pollinate with either the dentatum or v. prunifolium if not what would and do you know where to buy it? Thanks again. Sarah

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, yes. Thanks for prompting me to reread this post in its entirety, Kevin. I forgot there were other candidates besides cassinoides and the other nudum cultivars, however chronologically challenged in terms of bloom time they may be. I went out looking for one of them yesterday. I didnt find any, but I did get a V. lantana 'Mohican' to pair up with my V. lantana 'variegata'. Yes, I have become quite the Viburnum addict. I've also recently incorporated three V. Awabuki 'Chindo' into my evolving evergreen hedge. Let's see... that makes V. nudum 'Winterthur', V. opulus 'Roseum', V. plicatum tomentosum 'Shasta', V. 'Pragense', V. 'Conoy', V. lantana 'variegata', V. lantana 'Mohican', and V. awabuki 'Chindo'. That's seven more plants than what I had when this thread started and just goes to show that a certain level of frustration can be a turnon, so to speak.

    Sarah, unless some other of my new found knowledge has escaped me, you will need either a different v. opulus or v. trilobum. Stay away from 'Roseum', as it is sterile and won't help. Be aware that there are both compact and golden leafed cultivars to be chosen from if they are of interest or better suited to your needs. Actually, I wonder if V. opulus var americum is a synonym for v. trilobum, also called "American Cranberry bush" as opposed to V. opulus which is usually called "European Cranberry bush"? In any case, they are both related enough to pollinate, so as long as you don't get two with the same cultivar name or two straight species which have been cutting propagated from the same source plant, you should be fine. Be aware that var. (variety) is not the same as cultivar, so if my above synonym theory holds out, V. opulus var. americum and V. trilobum could prove to be the same thing. I would stay away from buying a pair thusly marked from the same nursery unless its clear they originated from different sources. They may have just changed their minds about the taxonomy. Good Luck!

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  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It finally occurred me to try spelling "americanum" and searching online, yes, it does appear V. trilobum and V. opulus var. americanum are one and the same plant.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks hohoho, Yor really helped clarify the viburnum variety cultivar situatin. I prefer to use native plants I haven't even seen it for sale recently around here just at Forest Farm and Mussers If you know anywhere else that has a fairly sizable plant please let me know. Thanks again. Sarah

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Leaves finially all gone on my Winterthur and only afew left on the Count Polaski next to it. The fall colors on the Winterthur leaves were awesome. The leaves always seem to have a sheen, even green. Then when they turned shades of Crimson and the richest Burgandy, still shiney, well, simply spectactular!!! The Count Polaski had some crimson in it but not as rich as the Winterthur, rest of the leaves stayed green. Plus the Count Polaski does not have the shiney leaves that look constanly wet like the Winterthur has.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm bumping this thread up again because I have a Viburnum trilobum that needs a cross pollinator (I plan to buy one this spring).

    My concern is that if I buy another V. trilobum from a local nursery, it may turn out to be a genetic clone of the one I bought the previous season.

    How do you ensure that you are buying seedling stock and not clones?

    And, are there various cultivars of V. trilobum that could be used as cross pollinators for the species on I have?

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are a number of clones, but some are turning out to be V. opulus x V. trilobum hybrids. Try finding 'Redwing' if you insist on V. trilobum. You can also use any of the V. opulus, V. sargentii, or V. orientale species or cultivars. Of course, as Uncle ViburnumValley always says, their bloom times must overlap. Also, if you live near any woods/open space, there could be V. opulus lurking about. It has established itself in many areas. It is abundant around me, and even though I take out many invasive exotics, I do leave the V. opulus as it is so very close to the American species.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And if Kevin keeps enunciating my advice, I'll cease to have a reason to post.

    Alfredo, Hahs, Wentworth are three clones/cultivars that are generally available retail in the cranberrybush viburnum group. They were even selected up in the northeast, so they should perform fine for Cady.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Kevin and ViburnumValley. I shall watch for those species and cultivars. I realize that the key is having viburnums that have the same or overlapping bloom times, but other than that, I take it that any viburnum species (providing it has overlapping bloom time) is fine for X-pollination.

    Thanks again!

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I take it that any viburnum species (providing it has overlapping bloom time) is fine for X-pollination."

    Not so! They must be more closely related than just the same species.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oops!
    Got it!

    I'll be sure to get one of the cultivars suggested above. Thanks again for the advice.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was rereading this thread and realized that I saw some Viburnum opulus 'Sterile' at a favorite local Nursery late last fall but the plants had berries. That many but still, they were there. Maybe the plants were mislabled? But this is a very good local nursery.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! While doing a background search on viburnums, this
    incredible nine-month-running thread on the plant in question surfaced.....and I have learned more in the last
    half-hour about viburnums than in a lifetime of gardening!
    And, NOW I understand why the five different V.'s added
    during the past five years scarcely produce berries! Given
    all the other sleazy tricks and misinformation that nurseries have handed me over the years, the failure to let
    us all know about the absolute necessity of cross-pollinizing seems downright criminal.....

    Looking on the upbeat side, at least now we DO know, so
    here's the original question I was researching (hope Kevin
    or Viburnum Valley are reading this): if two mail-order
    nurseries from whom I could purchase V.nudum 'Winterthur'
    are specifically offering v.nudum as a pollinator, how
    can I be sure the two plants are from the same zone, i.e.
    will they bloom at same time? Second: one of the nurseries
    is selling the v.nudum as the "male" needed for my (assumed) 'Winterthur' - but didn't one of VV's earlier postings say that viburnums are monoecius (not separate
    males and females)?

    At long last, I hope I'm on the road to real berry production, which is what got me so interested in these
    magnificent plants in the first place - and just in time,too, as the birds were beginning to give up on me!

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You have to trust that the nursery selling V. nudum as a pollinator for 'Winterthur' has had both plants in bloom at the same time. You could call, and ask specifically, and see if someone can assure you that they will overlap in bloom. The nursery calling the one plant a "male" is wrong, but at least they DO know that cross pollination is needed. I would feel comfortable in buying a V. nudum from either(or both?) nurseries. The fact that they are even noting the need for cross pollination is a huge leap ahead of most nurseries. Around here, 'Winterthur' is showing up in a lot of nurseries. Amazingly, I have NEVER seen a fruit on a plant. I listened to an employee describe the wonderful fruit to a prospective buyer--this was in late summer. The shrub should have been covered in fruit. No mention of cross pollination.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My V. cassinoides is going to bloom although it is really, really small compaired to the Winterthur and Count Polaski shrubs rear it. Of course, the Winterthur and Count Polaski don't even have leaf buds out yet so the cassinoides will be too early to do them any good.

    Now to get berries on the cassinoides do I need to buy another one from another source? I got mine from ForestFarm in 2002.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can get cross pollination for your V. cassinoides from V. prunifolium, V. lentago, V x jackii, or V. nudum, as well as another V. cassinoides.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Count Polaski and Winterthur both showing tight bloom clusters at the tips of branches. I hope they are on the same schedule this year so I can get berries on both. The cassinoides blossoms are still nowhere near open so I guess they will not be as early as I had first thought.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cassinoides blooming away for the past week. Of course the Count Polaski and Winterthur are way, way behind and not even thinking about blooming.

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since this is a continuing thread, I will add another note. I bought a new house and the nursery put in a shrub called "Smooth Witherrod Viburnum nudum Pollinator" It mates with "Winterthur." Here is the info from the wholesaler.

    http://www.starplants.com/catalog3.cfm?Botname=Viburnum%20nudum%20&Plant=Shrubs

    If you click "Pollinator" you will see the item I noticed.

    My problem is that I have "Pollinator" and not "Winterthur." Do I need "Winterthur" to meet the needs of "Pollinator?" Or can "Pollinator" go it alone and flower and produce fruit?

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I commented on your other thread as well. Get Winterthur, since it is very commonly produced, and eliminate the worry over fruit or no fruit. Why waste a year finding out?

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My Winterthur is blooming now. Started about a week ago. As usual, that is same as last year, the Count Polaski that is supposed to pollinate is not nearly ready to flower. Enough to drive me to drink!!!!!!!!!

  • 20 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No berries on Winterthur for me. No Berries on Count Polaski either.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know why I didn't see any berries on them in July but both my Winterthur and Count Polaski DO have berries this year.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Last year I planted two viburnum nudum 'Winterthur' and one viburnum cassinoides. As of today, all three have berries. The cassinoides are strong pink and the Winterthur are creamy white with pale pink beginning at the bottom of each berry. the cassinoides is planted approx. 50 ft. from the Winterthurs.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I posted a pic in the gallery of my grouping of V. nudum seedlings, planted close together, with their wonderful fruit set.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hey, i'm posting again over a year later, and two good things have happened. first , the nursery i bought the winterthurs at last year got wise and this year also offered the pollinators! so there is progress there. and second, my winterthurs are making some really pretty berries - probably more next summer since their pollinators are only baby-size right now.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Congrats, reddirt. Persistence pays off. Save some of the seeds (supposedly easy to sprout) and make some of your own home-grown pollinators, for yourself or distribution to those who don't live among the enlightened.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This spring I asked a couple different nurseries about acquiring a mate. I thought my request had fallen on deaf ears because nothing ever came of it and my frequent subsequent visits to both yielded nothing. So, I ordered small specimens of several of the non-nudum candidates from Forest Farm because they were inexpensive. I also sowed the half dozen berries that my lone 'Winterthur' did produce. I thought I would have to wait several years before I would have a worthy pollinator of any type. Today I went to the larger of the two and what did I find amongst the end of year half-off shrubs? A half dozen or so nice larger specimens of 'Earth Shades'. I grabbed two and I'm thrilled! I'm not sure why they weren't made available to me at full price earlier this year, but hey, that's water under the bridge now. : )

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm really glad I got the 'Earth Shades'. The fall color was a real treat. While 'Winterthur' had kind of a deep red-purple color, 'Earth Shades' was a cheery tomato red. The two did look nice together and with a fothergilla blazing orange nearby, that was quite a bright spot in my landscape. Wish I had photographed it.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Back in June of this year, I was given the Smooth Witherrod Viburnum nudum Pollinator as part of a "landscape package"' with a new house. I went out and bought the Winterthur for its mate.

    Quite some time ago, the pollinator went bright red, stayed that way for some time, and recently gave up its leaves. In contrast, the Winterthur is still trying to figure out if it wants to stay green, go dull red, get measles, get yellow, get brown, keep its leaves, or lose its leaves.

    I hope these two Starplant mates, which are 5 feet apart, settle their differences over the winter and get their act together for next Spring.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another of my favorite Viburnum threads.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In Oct I recounted how I had inquired in the spring about acquiring 'Earthshades' from two nurseries and heard nothing, then stumbled upon a batch serendipitously in the fall clearance at the larger one. Well, a couple days ago the smaller of the two nurseries- where I had inqured first (trying to support the smaller, more local guy) left a message on my machine.
    "I have a note here where you wanted 'Earthshades'"
    I was in shock. A year after my request it was apparant that I hadn't been totally forgotten. The message went on.... "I didn't get any 'Earthshades', but our Monrovia truck just came and I got all kinds of other neat native shrubs and stuff. Come check it out."

    It really sounded like someone had been cleaning out their desk drawers and took the opportunity of seeing my phone number to try to drum up a little business before pitching it. Could it be that lack of customer service has hurt business? To be honest, I've made several "pity purchases" at this nursery. That's where I go, look around for half an hour at EVERYTHING that they've got and then realizing they don't have anything worth getting excited about at even a semi-competitive price, I'll pick up some small perennial or two that I already have or didn't really want just so that they MIGHT make enough to pay the help's wages- the one girl that smiles and waters things and frets behind the owners back about the new shipment of shade plants that the owner insists be displayed prominently in the sun. When the girl isn't there, its not uncommon for the owners to sit inside without making an appearance while I mill about outside for a good amount of time- sometimes gathering substantial purchases about me. This phone message has made me think- why shop here at all? Why not shift the remaining 15% of my nursery patronage onto the OTHER independant operation in town- the one that treats me like royalty everytime I walk thru the door because I'm there at least 3 times a month and they are as excited about plants as I am. REALLY! Its either that or I'm going to sit them down and say, "Listen! What are your goals here?" I would love to videotape my experience at my favorite nursery and then play it for these guys operating just around the corner with their "neat native shrubs and stuff".
    I'm not usually so critical and if I don't like a business usually I just won't go there anymore, buts it nice to have several nurseries to choose from and for there to be some sense of competition between them. Obviously, they do compete for my business and the business of other gardeners like me. Problem is, only one of them seems to know it- or care.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hoe Hoe Hoe,

    I LOVED your post!

    Scott

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pardon a lurker for intruding. Viburnums are, by far, my favorite shrubs and having never read about Viburnum in such detail, I find these discussions great tonic for the winter blahs. I am trying to remember if one of my plants is a Winterthur. Compared to Judd or Korean Spice it has elongated, shiny, lighter colored leafs, more fall color and completely loses all foliage in winter. It flowers in mid June and the fragrance is, well...definitely not sweet. I bought this plant for the foliage years ago and forgot its name. This thread has rung a bell.

    Does this sound like Winterthur? Thanks.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can't speak to the fragrance, but it does sound like you might have the id. Another telltale is that the nudum seems to droop with thirst quicker than other species during hot dry spells.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Harryshoe: I think you've ID'd the viburnum correctly.

    BTW: grub out the roses, and go gaga with all the viburnums you're missing!

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My Count Polaski seems to have some winter damage but the Winterthur came thru just great, no damage. Now for some flowers and if they could just get on the same schedule so they can fruit!

    I noticed last year, birds did not bother with the fruit, it stayed on ALL winter into late spring.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Its looking so badly right now, I wouldn't be surprised if it croaked. Have no idea what the problem is. The Winterthur next to it looks lovely.

  • 19 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since this is on the last page, might as well bump it up too.

  • 18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What is the best way to store the bumper crop of seed that I got from my Earthshades and especially my Winterthur? I don't want to plant now because I will probably be moving before spring. Don't want any pots either, because I'll already have way to many of those to manage during the move.

    Thanks.

  • 18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bebump

  • 18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To risk repeating what may have already been said here, Viburnum nudum needs to be cross pollinated to achieve better fruit set. It is not a question of male and female flowers borne on separate plants(dioecious), as with hollies; they simply need 2 different clones (ie different cultivars). Two plants of the same clone will pollinate each other, but fruit set is MUCH better with cross-pollination. As Viburnum nudum 'Winterthur' is one of the most commonly found clones (aka cultivars) suitable pollinators would be either an un-named clone of V. nudum (straight species), V. nudum 'Count Pulaski' or 'Earthshade'. The correct name is 'Earthshade', NOT 'Earthshades', and it was introduced by William Flemer IV, formerly of Princeton Nurseries, when he owned Earthshade Nursery in North Carolina in the 1990's. Rare Find Nursery in Jackson NJ is a mail-order source for all three of these clones. You may order online through their website or from the catalog.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Rare Find Nursery

  • 18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    syringa12, out of curiostiy I followed the link. I see only V. nudum and V. nudum 'Winterthur'. I didn't see any Earthshade. Prices are really high, IMHO, for a plant that's only 6 to 12 inches tall! I clicked on the Franklinia alatahama and was shocked to see a 4-5 foot tall tree for $400!! Good grief...I had one at my previous house. Bought it at a native plant sale for $5. It was about 12 inches tall and was about 3 1/2 ft. tall when we moved. $400!!

    Terry

  • 18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just ordered a Viburnum nudum pollinator from Carroll Gardens in Maryland. I'll post here when I have received it, but it was around $31 plus shipping for a 3-gallon plant. I had to mail order it because I've had no success finding anything other than Winterthur locally. As I have 2 Winterthurs already, I needed a pollinator for them.

  • 18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oops - my mistake in my previous post. The plant I just ordered is from a 5 gallon pot, not 3 gallon. Not too bad a deal.

    Here is a link that might be useful: viburnum nudum 'Pollinator'

  • 18 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ellen_s:

    I posted as Imissmydaphne in 2004 and found the Starplants nudum pollinator at a local nursery and bought it. I planted it about 5' feet from my Winterthur and both plants were loaded with berries in 2005. I'm not a fan of viburnum and know little about them but these two plants work hard with their blooms, the changing colors of their berries, and the Fall coloring. I even bought two more for the back of my yard.

    I've added the Starplants link with the two together. Good luck with your plants.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Nudum Pollinator & Winterthur

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Best. Viburnum. Thread. Ever.

    I think I've read it 5 or 6 times now over the years. Learn more every time.

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Locally (Delmarva - Eastern Shore MD), a nursery is selling V. nudum "Brandywine" (Monrovia) as the pollinator for "Winterthur" (makes sense, both Delaware Valley names). Their website says it is V. nudum 'bulk', which may mean that it is just the species v. nudum. This is my first year with Winterthurs - 11 of them, and I just happened to see something about a pollinator, and so quickly bought one lonely Brandywine - within 75 feet of the Winterthurs, and hope it will do the job. They were both tightly closed last week, and look very similar. The W's are just opening here on Memorial Day (May 30).

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I purchased a Brandywine viburnum from Behnke nursery in Potomac MD with the hope of polinating my 3 Winterthurs. The Brandywine was planted 2 weeks ago and just started blooming. The Winterthurs look like they are close to blooming. Crossing my fingers!

  • 13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    K. Wills:

    You are on the right track. You will have cross-pollination, and all your Viburnum nudum selections should be loaded with fruit come late summer/fall - provided they all flower.

    Some additional information, for those confused by cultivar names versus trademark names.

    V. nudum 'Bulk' is the exact same thing as V. nudum Brandywine(TM). People who select and name plants do this, because the trademark protects that name for that plant, so that others don't swipe it and use it for another plant in that species. The cultivar name is not protected. To make it worse: neither of these refer to patenting of plants, which is a whole 'nother route to follow.

    Good luck with your viburnums - you have two fine selections that should provide you with plenty of show for years to come.

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