Thanks, Wayne. I got my feet wet with SFG last spring (some planter boxes on a concrete patio) but I am starting to lean towards a more French intensive or bio intensive approach, even though I don't yet have my own compost bin. No hissy fit here... I just have some serious concerns about my native soil... the original 30+ year owner of our house was a jeweler and I have some concerns about what might be tossed into the site that we're going to use as our garden. Also, we did some construction last year (demo of old lead covered house and compaction of our clay soils), not to mention a major gopher problem. All of which made me want to plant essentially a 24" deep box above ground with a rodent mesh underneath. (I actually posted this question, too.) The SFGers think anything more than 6" is a waste, but I know I need more. I was almost completely convinced that 16" would be fine but I am thinking of going back to my original plan of 23" deep boxes. Plenty of room for my veggies without rodents snacking on roots. LOL Anyway, I appreciate your feedback. My intuition is that the loam/organic mix I'm getting (it's about 30% loam and 70% organic matter) is going to be great. -k

The anti-biosoild zealots are long on "it might be a risk" or Europe's standards are lower,yet they still fail to produce real hard data. For example, what they leave out is the load limit of some of these metals, such as copper and lead in class A and even class B biosoilds. You would need to apply Milorganite EVERY year or some other biosolid like it for 345 years for lead and 278 years for copper for it to reach its EPA load limit. That doesn't even account for organic binding, mineralization and leaching/migration of the metals harmlessly in the soil. I don't know about you, but even with long life in my family, I doubt I will be around that long to worry about it. I use Milorganite on everything and I have even seen the independent report and have spoken with an independent scientist who tested it for a bioremediation project for the DoD. She indicated it was lower in metals and other contaminants than the tap water and virgin soil they were going to use in the project. Compare class A biosoilds to Scott's or Ironite sometime and decide which will be better to put down as fertilizer for your kids or pets to play around. BTW, the National Science Foundation did an independent study and risk assessment in 1995 of EPA biosolids regulations and found they were far below any levels that would possibly pose any threat to humans, wildlife, soil or water and agriculture. The zealots seem to overlook this fact as well in their quest to malign well managed practices of biosolid use. There has NEVER been a documented case of the regulated use of biosolids causing harm to people, animals or plants in over 35 years of use in our environment-yet the myth and junk science persists. I will continue to use and benefit from Milorganite on my lawn, veggies, ornamentals like temperate tropicals and palm trees.

That's really important for me to know because every year I accumulate about six to eight trash cans full of ground up fall leaves. Those ground up leaves get dug into my beds in November and December. Sometimes I throw some lawn fertilizer on top. But what I'm beginning to understand is that I also should throw some full strength urine on top in the winter. The more the better. As in, NOW. I gotta go get a drink ... Now, when things are growing in these beds, and I still want to use urine as a fertilizer, I have to highly dilute that urine before I do. So I guess I wouldn't use anywhere near as much in the spring and summer as I would in the winter, when I can go full-strength. Now, I understand that humans urinate more in the winter than in the summer. Why? Because in the summer, we lose lots of fluid by sweating. So, somewhat amusingly, we pee more in the season when at least my garden beds can use more. That fits. If I wanted to save urine, I wouldn't be saving it for the summer. I'd be saving it for the winter.

Linda - "aged cow manure" and compost (in the normal sense of the term) are not the same thing, not comparable to "black compost from the town compost facility". And as repeatedly noted above planting in nothing but a thick layer of compost is well documented as problematic and inadvisable for many different reasons already discussed. Plus I don't think anyone has mention the ponding (especially with clay) and water drainage problems that result from layering different materials. Ideal soil mixes for growing plants are just that - MIXES - of soil and compost. So turning/mixing that compost in with the native soil that is already there solves the problems listed and other than some primary nutrient supplements later on, nothing more is needed. Jerry - if you want to try a really informative experiment, split your bed in half. In one half layer your compost on top of the soil as originally proposed and plant. In the other half, turn the soil in the ground under the bed and mix it in well with the compost you add. Then note the differences in the plant performance over time. Sometimes that is the best way we learn what really works. Dave