Depends on what rose varieties you are going to plant, and of course how large they will get in your zone.

You will want to size the posts at least high enough to make sure pedestrian traffic will be safe around them.

An option to posts would be to make teepee-type structures out of rebar, sunk into concrete. Cheap, easy, strong, surprisingly decorative.

Sounds like it will be pretty!

Why a fenced garden?

The odds are very good that whatever it is that likes beans and carrots, will like roses at least as much.

Hi Carol,

Your post got me to thinking about a spot in our yard where we have a vegetable garden. I have been thinking about doing something like that in our yard too. I tend to be opinionated about what I like, so your mileage may vary here, but this is the way I'm leaning for building in our own yard now...

I wouldn't suggest sticking several isolated tall posts into the ground. For one thing, it's hard to get a post sticking up that's totally vertical, and assuming that you don't quite get every one just right, you'd be noticing that imperfection instead of the roses. For another thing, it would look too funny when the roses aren't totally covering the posts. Have you ever seen car barricades sticking up from the sidewalk at important buildings? That would be the effect, only worse, because the tall things poking up from the ground would be taller and farther apart.

The tepee idea would be much better and would be attractive anywhere you wanted to do that. But what my imagination suggests here is an overall scheme and the tepees would still be isolated from one another and would not create the single focal point you'd ideally like to see there in connection to the fence. Uh, I really mean the focal point that I'd like to see there next to our own garden. :)

Details on creating a pergola:

I'd suggest using tall posts at regular intervals for the fence posts instead of fence-height posts for the garden fence. Just have the horizontal parts (non-post fencing material) of the vegetable fence stop at whatever height you'd planned for the fencing material, and attach it to the posts. And locate the fence line far enough away from the vegetables that you provide an extra 18 inches or so, to allow for some of the roses on the other side of the fence to grow through, over, and on top of the fencing material. Then the roses nearest the tall posts can be trained to climb the posts. A bit farther north of the fence with those tall posts--maybe 6-8 feet away in another line paralleling that of the fence--locate a series of posts that are directly opposite the tall fence posts. Connect each post to its opposite member on the fence with a large crossbeam spanning the top. These extra tall posts should be absolutely vertical pieces, but if imperfectly vertical, the off-angle won't look as bad or be as noticeable as the individual posts would be if sticking up by themselves to point skyward without being straight up.

Then, ideally, connect all the tall posts also with beams running horizontally in the other direction too, so that when a rose has climbed a post it can head in two directions horizontally, and you'll have the vertical pieces stiffened and supported in their upright position by horizontal beams going on two or three sides.

So you'll have a cozy inviting place to walk through or to sit on a bench within the rose columns area. If you can make the two fence post rows far enough apart to accomplish both a walkway area and a sit down area, so much the better. Perhaps a width around 7 feet on center would do that?

If you have, say, four tall fence posts, with four tall posts in the row parallel to it, you might build a bench into the space between posts 2 and 3 on one side. Or locate it anywhere within the pergola, depending on the numbers of fence posts you need to use.

Another way to do the bench thing would be to put a bench outside the pergola. Perhaps if you have a wonderful view of the sea and don't want to have it hidden any by the posts and roses that might obstruct the view somewhat? So you could also use an outside bench in place of a pergola bench, or create one in addition to the pergola bench. This little bench area would be right beyond where you'd exit from the pergola after walking through it from the house. Just continue using outside the pergola whatever material you're using under foot (mulch?) within the pergold area, pulling it into a little path going a few steps to a sweeping enlarged circular area just on the other side of the pergola. Put a bench there and a little coordinating or matching table, and orient the bench so that it has a good view. Especially if you have two good views, say, one of the roses and another of the sea, you'd prefer to put two benches facing one another with the little table between them, so you could choose different views according to whim. Perhaps put a potted rose on the table. This destination seating area needs to be very close to the pergola, to make it a part of the same focal point and contribute to it.

If the distance on the garden is too great for just four posts, increase it to whatever is necessary, just so (maybe) that no spans are longer than 6 feet. Try to divide up the space so that the distances between the posts along the fence are equal; anything at 6 feet or less along the fenceline ought to work, as long as you're working with 6" square posts.

Or if you don't want the pergola to be as long as your fence, just put regular height fence posts where you don't want to have the posts form part of a pergola boundary.

If you decide that it would be nice to have the roses completely cover the overhead space on the pergola section, you could lay some more beams up there to create a "ceiling" effect on the top of the beams. For this extra bit of "ceiling", lay 2" x 6" pieces on end vertically, so that from the side you see thick planks. Depending on the distances between the supporting beams, this might also work with smaller pieces, as small as 2" square.

I am thinking of using wood, since that is what we've done in other areas of our yard. Of course, lots of people use other materials and are happy with what they choose. If you do use wood, then I'd suggest using treated landscape timber that is 6 inches square. You'd need at least a 10 foot length for each post, since a good distance of the post will have to be below ground to give it some stability (set into concrete, with lots of level checks and steadying supports to keep it vertical as the concrete sets up). You might decide to trim up the posts into something to make the verticals larger looking. Cedar works well for that, though you want to make sure it's not touching the cement or positioned down too close to it where it might stay wet with too much rain.

We do have one small pergola like that here, and there's really no way I'd change it if we had to do it over again. It has lasted well since the mid-1980's with a coat or two of stain on it once in awhile and it still looks fairly permanent to me, except that my husband had to cut off the bottom inch or so of cedar trim that had been positioned too close to the cement base for the 6" x 6" post. I love the inviting warmth of its looks in the yard, and I think it looks good even without any roses there yet.

Best of luck with all your adventures in climbing roses!
Mary

In a public garden nearby they use quite simple structures from some kind of tubes and wires for their kitchen garden - it looks quite good actually, since it is rather invisible when roses are in full bloom and seems to be sturdy enough, for we get strong winds around here.

Here the structure is visible: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9132/menkemaborg.jpg

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:236713}}

Some good ideas here, GW'ers, and a lot of thought. Hoovb, height question: I'm going to plant various white and yellow old climbers, hardy for zone 6. Some (Sombreuil) really get tall and they'll need 8 ft. posts and cross beams or chain swags to keep on growing along. Some may top out at only 8 ft.

Mad Gallica, this is our RI weekend place, almost a zone 7 and old pasture land (good soil), so it could be ideal (within New England limits) for roses. Deer, dogs & cats, summer tourists and children, foxes, raccoons, rabbits etc., all pass through our open yard. I'd like to be able to eat the lettuce without getting e. coli from droppings. We already have several large boulder-edged perennial beds around the perimeter, but this one would be veggies and a sanctuary. Right now the back yard is about 100'x80' of rough grass, mowed weekly by a local person on his ride-on. Any vegetation hanging over bed edges gets mowed. A fenced garden (I'm thinking 32'x22') protects the plants within but leaves plenty of room outside for croquet and frisbee.

Carolinamary7, you're doing the same thing: dreaming elaborately and with great detail! I was figuring that with a chair or 2 in the center, tall plants around the edges, the garden would become a place one would want to sit in (having done the weeding). I think in our rather rural area, a pole and post fence about 3 ft. high in 8 ft. sections (which I then staple wire mesh inside of) would let lots of light & air through, and would fit the looks of the area. I'll have a local yard person put in the posts - they set them in, 2 ft. deep on a little gravel, for drainage. And then we'd splurge on a gorgeous gate for the middle front, with arch overhead. The problem with making pergolas is the town would require me to get a bldg. permit since that is defined as a "structure" whereas fencing and gates aren't. So that's why I'm thinking posts, maybe linking them with chain. I can take my time about deciding that, since it will be 2-3 years before any climbers reach post tops.

Elemire, thanks for the gorgeous photos. I've seen copper tubing bent and set into the ground in a solid way, to use as rose arches. But this is hurricane country and I'm worried about 90 mph winds hitting heavy high wet rose bushes and pulling the whole structure down or badly out of line. So I think thick posts, preferably PT or even cedar, might work better for this area.

Thanks - I'll have to post pix - in about 3 years.

Carol

Carol, no matter what height you choose for the fence there will be roses that will be happy with that height, and others that won't.

You'll need to either decide what you roses you really want to grow & then accommodate their height, or decide what height you want to set the fence at & then decide what roses to grow.

(Having said that, from personal experience I do recommend you set the height at at least four feet high. I think you will have an easier time choosing roses if you do that, unless you have a passion for hardy miniatures.)

I keep feeling I'm missing something fairly basic about this whole setup.

If the posts are being purchased, they'll probably have standard lengths of 8 ft or 10 ft. A good percentage of that length should be buried to help with stability. I'm guessing that even with cement, at least 2 ft is going to be below ground. (my cedar posts were home-grown and set in holes limited by bedrock) So an 8 ft post is going to translate into a support about 6 ft tall. A 10 ft post will end up about 7 ft tall.

Poultry netting also comes in standard sizes. I think it's specifically turkey netting that comes with extra wires near the bottom, which does make a difference. Unless the garden looks too crowded, deer will go over that fence as easily as we go over a curb. If you are serious about keeping out deer, then the rose supports become part of the exclusion fencing.

Training hardy climbers is somewhat easier than training cats, but not by much. Ramblers are a lot easier.

Mad gallica, locally (east RI) they bury 2 ft. of a post in the ground, with some gravel for drainage. Thick posts (4x4, 6x8) hold up very well in the wind. We have 1 12-ft. high post for a large birdhouse, that is 6x8. Solid as a rock. But you're right - we'll use 10 ft. posts and plant them 2 ft. down. If the lawn & garden local man says dig deeper, we'll get 12-footers and go 3 ft. down. The land here is a moraine, which has stones that get bigger the deeper one goes, but not much ledge (except some puddingstone).

I'm now thinking that the fence along the north line where I want the climbing roses' poles, can be separate from the tall poles. It's the least seen side of the garden and I could just use metal stakes and metal rabbit fence (bottom part is smaller openings) 4 ft. high. I know deer can leap over anything up to 8 ft. high, but I'm hoping they'll prefer their usual munchies: 1.5 acres of wetlands plants & shrubs downhill of our yard. No 8 ft. fences, please! I saw one in a Potomac MD backyard (they wanted their garden perfect for a wedding) and one in Fairbanks Alaska (she grew prize cabbages) and they looked like prison yards - one expected a guard tower at the corner!

I hadn't thought of the rose supports as an anti-deer device. Do the deer eat the roses? the leaves? If I make the fencing 3 ft. high, can I temporarily add to the height with netting? It'd look awful but in 3 years, let us hope, it would come down and the roses become the upper fence.

And climbers will be at the posts and yes, ramblers along the fence. The problem is keeping the lawn person from mowing my new rose bushes, so this means semicircles of wire fencing around each one.

I can only hope that the local deer dine elsewhere and the hurricanes slip by to our south. Hope. After all, that is what the dialogue between a gardener and Nature is all about.

Carol

Carol,If the roses are planted outside the fence the deer will eat them certainly. Could you plant them inside and tie them to the fence? Many climbers are too stiff to grow on posts. If they just grow straight up they'll bloom at the top and be bare at the bottom. Also remember if the posts are tall you'll have to get up on something to train the roses. I've found that I hate doing that. The teepee idea is good because you can train the canes more horizontally to encourage blooms. I love your pergola idea, but imagine the deer eating there too. Perhaps they are more aggressive here. Everything here is fenced.

Mendocino Rose, CA deer are definitely bigger than RI deer. In this rural seaside town, the summer beach traffic keeps the deer population from taking over. In the winter, sometimes a herd of 7-8 does & babies is seen near the wooded coast. But not much is fenced around here except for serious production veg. farming.

I'm aware of the varying habits of various climbers, and you're right - I really don't want to be climbing & moving a ladder all the time, to reach them. I was hoping that 8 ft. posts would allow me to loosely restrain long stiff canes in the middle without climbing. Roses as climbers, not me as climber!

So planting the roses inside the garden would mean I'd have to make the garden larger to accommodate their bulk, and make more paths inside the garden to get to them. That would save them from the lawn guy's mower, though.

I do know I need to get those canes more horizontal, for more blooms. But how does a teepee form do that? Where can I see photos of teepee-planted roses?

Carol

Hi Carol,

I can understand how the idea of building permits ever got started--protection of the public!--and the real needs for that in housing and other buildings. But if it gets applied to pergolas, it seems unrelated to public safety. How much do they charge someone for building a pergola? Perhaps the charge is so low that it's a mere nuisance? The main argument for a pergola is that it's very inviting and attractive the year around.

I have seen pictures of posts with chain swags in a famous Paris public garden and the roses look fantastic there. As best I can recall, the posts were large pillars and fairly tall, though I cannot find a picture now. The rub would be what it would look like in the winter and early spring if you're not building large (wide) pillars, but are using wooden posts. If you are headed toward a circle of posts, a circle of tepees might look better when uncovered in the winter and early spring.

Our first fence was professionally installed and the fence-builder's suggestion was that posts set into a gravel footing hole would work fine. Anything set up as our do-it-yourself building books suggested, with the posts in concrete, would have been noticeably more money so we went for what we could afford at the time, and that was already plenty expensive. That method did work reasonably well, although not quite totally solidly if you pushed against a post. After about 20-25 years the posts had rotted in the ground, though, and my husband had to do the fence posts over again. At one time, our fencing on two sides held thin "farm" wire mesh fencing (6 feet high) and I loved the looks of it, because beyond the fence were beautiful woodsy areas I liked to be able to see and the fencing didn't detract or distract from that view. I think the sections were about 8' each, as you are considering for yours.

I'm no expert at all on rabbits, but I wonder whether a fence that is only 3' high would be tall enough. I think, though I'm not positive as to the exact route the rabbit took, that a rabbit here has jumped up to some landscape timbers that were 3' or higher off the ground (to trim way back our Julia Child roses for us). Rabbits love roses.

The best way to make sure you have no deer problems is to prevent deer from finding your roses and vegetables in the first place. I'd suggest that you not wait to see what happens, because once hungry deer have a memory of getting food at a certain place, it's much, much more difficult to ever keep them out.

There's a book that discusses keeping out deer that's well worth reading now (right now, to help you plan). Your local library ought to have it, but if not, it's relatively inexpensive to buy from Amazon: "Deerproofing Your Yard & Garden" by Rhonda Massingham Hart.

Deer aren't kept out by rose hedges, not if jumping them is to a spot they are already familiar with, such as would be the case for them while the roses were growing up. They don't jump into areas they can't see or are unfamiliar with, though. Deer will eat roses, all roses, even very thorny ones, if they are hungry enough. That tends to occur in winter and early spring during some years, but not all. (After a famine, generally caused by more breeding than the land's vegetation can support, the deer don't reproduce well, so the deer population pressure on the land lowers for a few years then; that cycle can mislead you into thinking that you've solved the deer access problem when you haven't.)

Your gorgeous front gate with an arch will be wonderful, and so inviting. I've seen many pictures of that being done, and don't think I've ever seen one that looked less than wonderful!

Best of luck!
Mary

Here is a link that might be useful: Phillip Oliver's pictures offer lots of landscaping ideas

Mary, thank you for your thoughtful comments. I'll look for that book. Someone whose garden was depredated by deers refers to them as rats with hooves. I told him he might try coyote urine which is available in bottles, to keep them away. He retorted that lion urine would work better -- especially if the lion was around!

I was not sure what you meant by "The best way to make sure you have no deer problems is to prevent deer from finding your roses and vegetables in the first place. I'd suggest that you not wait to see what happens, because once hungry deer have a memory of getting food at a certain place, it's much, much more difficult to ever keep them out." Do you mean I should enclose the space before I plant anything? So far (since 1996) we haven't had any deer dining problems and I do have roses, perennials, shrubs, radishes and tomatoes. It certainly makes sense for the new garden to be enclosed before I plant it.

Rabbits around here don't jump very high and so the local "rabbit fencing" galvanized steel roll stuff, has the bottom first 12 inches in tight weave and the rest of it much more open. Nice New England bunnyrabbits, too cute, until they eat the lettuce.

I looked at photos of teepees which seem to be just 10 ft. long pieces of rebar stuck in the earth spaced out and tied together at the top. Great if the roses really cover it, but I think it's ugly when it shows. And it would show here from November through most of June. YMMV. I thought about chain swags too. I wonder if there's a way to make shorter fence posts, maybe 4 ft. high, and add some sort of 4 ft. extension to their tops. In that way I could start low and add height as the plants climb, or not add height if their habit leans toward lower horizontal cane arrangement. Maybe for the higher horizontals I could lash 8 ft. long sections of galv. pipe across the tops of the posts? Just a thought. Instead of horiz. wood beams which would sag if 8 ft. long. I'm not worried about cedar posts and wood lasting only 20 years because at age 70 that's my own mileage limit. The garden fence and I can expire together!

I phoned the bldg. inspector today to make sure what was allowed & not. The reason for permits being needed in RI for pergolas is the wind: gusts, hurricanes and sudden coastal squalls. If the pergolas weren't built & anchored to the ground properly, they could do a lot of damage. The inspector said arbors are OK and so are large moon gates, the kind of expensive but beautiful double-gated entry arbors. I do want one.

I'm rethinking my north fence. Instead of open post & rail with stapled mesh, I could fasten 4x8 ft. sheets of cedar lattice to posts. Then I'd need only 1 ft. high chicken wire or mesh at the bottom, for the rabbits. And the lattice panels would keep down the cold northwest wind. On the other 3 sides I'd use open post & rail (with mesh) to let in the most sunlight.

But I must figure this out in the next 2 weeks because the man who will put up the fence, de-sod and rototill the soil and bring in a couple of yards of composted cow manure, needs to start working by then.

Carol

I think 8' tall fencing can look quite normal, just it is a question what kind of fence that is and what grows on it. Over here it is now popular to fence-in small city gardens with some sort of wire fencing and grow ivies over them, so in 2 years you generally end up with a green wall, no wire visible. I can imagine that planting sweet peas, morning glories and other annual climbers might look quite lovely on that sort of fence, as well as some climbing roses.

Another option could be a high hedge, it is often used in big gardens to separate spaces. The nice part about it is that you get lovely enclosed space, sheltered from wind (nice for some plants and on less lovely days), but it may not look exceptional from the distance, just a green wall.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:236714}}

Hi Carol,

There are multiple ways to deter deer from wandering through your yard, and some do not necessarily require enclosure. You'd need to read the book to get the full list of potential choices. (There's a reason an entire book was written on this subject...)

I was thinking that you told Mad Gallca that you had deer walking through your yard? Well, you are amazingly lucky not to have had any of them munching your yummies in 14 years there! It sounds like a place where all normal bets are off.

I've seen tepees built of various materials, including wood, and including some wooden ones attached to one another at the top with an attractive copper disk to keep rain off the top ends. You'd need to use some ingenuity for figuring out how to firmly anchor it to the ground there, though. If you do nothing other than to sit it onto the ground, I can imagine the wind whipping it around, and the roses with it.

I don't know of any non-wobbly way to make a post taller, so I think you'd be better off completing your planning before you get started. There's probably enough information available as to climbing heights for various roses for you to know what support heights you'll need for the roses, once you've selected your rose varieties. The trick is in selecting the varieties right away, before you get started.

It would be best to avoid putting the cart before the horse, but if you are going to make a mistake, getting started with something pretty tall sounds better to me; if you get most any rambler or climber that's cane hardy there, they'd probably all eventually reach the top of an 8' climbing support. For a few fairly floppy roses (like some of the Austin non-climbers, perhaps) they might like a shorter support, but otherwise I can't imagine planting any sort of climber or rambler against anything much lower than 8 feet tall. Even one of the shorter hybrid musks, like Lyda Rose that might be considered a 5' shrub, for example, will go above 5' eventually, with support for it to climb.

If a pergola is anchored with cement in the ground, I'd guess that it would withstand most any kind of wind. Ours went through a pretty intensive hurricane here. Maybe 110-120 mph winds in Hurricane Hugo? I've sort of forgotten now, but we had many, many very large trees downed in those winds, and not a drop of damage to the pergola, even with a sizable tree fallen upon it. Six-inch treated lumber with posts anchored in cement is tough!

Cedar latticework would make a beautiful fence, I think. Plus, it's lightweight enough that you could nail it up yourself, if someone else put up the posts and cross pieces. You'd need to seal off the top edges really well, though, or (much better) also put an extra railing on the top to prevent water from rotting away the top edge of the rather thin lattice material. A well-sanded, stained, and sealed railing at the top might be extra nice and convenient as a hand railing too. The lattice work and everything to do with the fence probably would need to be stained with a good weather sealer. We have some lattice work here in a few places and I like its looks really well. Azaleas look wonderful in front of it, and I'd guess it would contrast nicely with most anything you wanted to plant immediately next to it, including climbing roses. You can get lattice work in all sizes of openings and I think they all look good. The wind protection sounds like an excellent idea too.

Best wishes,
Mary

The way to train a climbing rose on a teepee so that it blooms all along the cane is to train the cane(s) as horizontally as possible. Instead of training the cane to grow straight up the teepee, try training it/them so it spirals around the teepee at less than a 45 degree angle from horizontal.

Climbers won't do the spirals. They are too stiff. Ramblers will do that. It was a total shock the first time I had to mess with Alexandre Girault that I could practically tie knots in those canes and use them as lassos.

Good discussion and suggestions. Am currently working on a similar structure on the west and east sides of my kitchen garden. I am installing two rows of vertical posts 4x6s, 8 feet above ground, giving a tunneled walkway effect. They will be connected at the top with horizontal beams. In between the vertical posts, I am going to build tall, narrow 'windows' with some vertical and horizontal 2x4s at the entrance to the garden. The effect of this is that you will have to walk to the end of the tunnel and enter the tunnel to go to the entrance of the garden. On the outside or front edge of this tunnel will be a hedge of 'Hansa" and then ramblers to grow up the pillars.

Now to my point(!): The resulting structure breaks the line of sight of the very poorly sighted deer, kind of like a maze to them, though not to us, it will discourage them, with or without fencing. If they cannot get comfortable with a sure way in and out, they won't wander into the garden itself. Okay, that's my two cents. Now you can help me with suggestions for ramblers that will go well with the colors of Hansa. Oh, and I already have two arbors with Francois d'Juranville and Awakening at the north and south garden entrances.

Is all this as clear as mud?

Regards, Marcy

Apologies, Marcy. I think I mislead you in my statement about the deer not jumping over something when they couldn't see where they were landing. I didn't mean that the deer wouldn't walk into parts of an area without being able to see everywhere within the entire area. They just need to see where their feet are going to be put down in order to walk someplace. Their superior senses of smell and hearing are still working to alert them to dangers, even when sight is more limited than ideal.

I don't actually have a really good picture in mind of your design scheme, but I wouldn't count on this scheme working to foil the deer. For one thing, the line of sight will probably not be broken, and the deer wouldn't be jumping over it, but walking gingerly into it. Also, the roses aren't like a solid wall, and even if they eventually became that solid, the deer will have a long, long time to familiarize themselves with the layout that they can see while the roses are establishing themselves. All it will take will be a single experience with something tasty at the end of an exploration, and they'll *remember*. Deer have excellent memories. For another thing, roses don't have many leaves in the winter and very early spring, when the deer tend to be starving and more willing to take risks to find food. And remember, all the deer really need to be able to walk ahead is to see where they can put their feet. Deer are explorers when it comes to finding food. They'll often eat in one spot and listen and sniff awhile before moving forward gingerly.

You might even be luring deer into the area by the availability of tasty roses growing up the structures. If deer are hungry enough they will eat any rose, including rugosas, though they'd prefer other kinds. Once the deer are nearby, they might walk cautiously the first time, but a quick recon is all they'll take the next time they want to get food from a spot where they've already succeeded in finding food previously.

I don't mean to discourage you from planting the roses, and a tunnel structure ought to be quite inviting. I just hope you can find a way to do what you want and at the same time deter any deer that you think might be in your area.

Best wishes,
Mary

Ever since you all started giving me suggestions, I've been making garden diagrams and hammering stakes here and there. I did ask local RI gardeners (members of RIRoseSoc) about deer and they said they've noticed no problem. So either we have enough plant material for them to winter over on, or few deer, or they all go to FL when it gets cold. Like a lot of summer residents.

Here's my latest plan (fed by your ideas): 8-ft. tall posts 8 feet apart along the back (north) line. North fence to be 4x8 sheets of square cedar lattice. The other 3 garden walls to be 4 ft. high inconspicuous open (black?) steel fence on steel stakes. Yep, rabbit protection on lowest parts. Total garden size, about 40 x 16. The long southern fence line gets sun all day. Simple gates on upper (west) and lower (east) ends lined up with main path of coarse bark nuggets, to facilitate wheelbarrowing stuff down to compost heap at lower end of yard and manure back up.

I forgot to mention: downslope past the stone wall and all across the road are many acres of bittersweet, honeysuckle, and MULTIFLORA wild roses all billowing and cascading by the end of June. Just to add to the background scenery.

The climbing roses will be INSIDE the north fence. Some ramblers to 5 ft. tall outside the other corners. The tired-gardener-takes-a-break bench under the southeast "conceptual pergola" (4 posts, unconnected, outside the fence) will face the ocean view. Low enough downslope hopefully to veil the future dozens of 400-ft-high windmills of the threatened wind farm and also the dozen house trailers near the town beach in summer.

I've started ordering white and yellow roses such as r. moschata plena and Gardenia and r. alba semi-plena. This close to the tempering effect of the ocean, I'll try pushing the zone (which is not quite 7).

I've given up on my fancy expensive entrance gate and going more practical with steel mesh. The money I save will pay for my trip to see NorCal roses in a month.

I am stunned by the many fine ideas you OGR-lovers have come forth with for me. Thanks again!

Carol