There are plenty of CRs who are experts in antique roses. A few of them (not me, I've still got training wheels on traning wheels in this area) post regularly here.

Diane, I just don't know any in real life, so am asking what I'm sure is a dumb ?. And how do you get there other than the cr designation, which I know is valuable. I don't mean to be offensive.

Many of the people who post on this forum are CRs. You can usually tell because their advice makes more sense than others like me who poke n hope.

Barbara, who is still working to earn training wheels (aka not a cr).

Okay, so to refine my ?, after the cr designation, what comprises the training wheels to become an "expert" in antique roses.

I am not downgrading the cr designation in any way: I'm hoping to get one. I just want to know what else is recommended in the area of antiques.

Reading books can help, Reading here can help. At some point, I think you do need to make contact with people, and get what amounts to hands on tutoring. If you don't live in a area with locals to help, this can be a big hurdle. So yes, there are things that can take years to muddle through that saying the right thing to the right person could have been explained in 5 minutes. That opportunity just wasn't available.

BTW, unless things are very different in your district, the CR classes will not be particularly relevant for OGRs unless you like to spray. The point isn't nearly as much to gain information, as to be put in a position to spread information you have already acquired elsewhere. Which doesn't help with the question of where, exactly, is the elsewhere.

Duchesse nalabama asked what books would be recommended.
There are a passel of them, but most of the ones I consider to be "best" are out of print.
These can be found used, way cheap.
I speak, of course, from the point of view of a mild-climate gardener.
MANY books have been written covering roses in England, and Europe.
So, for information on mild-climate stars, start with that fun read: "IN SEARCH OF LOST ROSES."
Graduate from that, to "OLD ROSES" by Ethelyn Emory Keays. It's just as readable, and full of information.
I still like "ANTIQUE ROSES FOR THE SOUTH" (Welch) and
"LANDSCAPING WITH ANTIQUE ROSES" (Druitt/Shoup)
A real treasure is "EVERBLOOMING ROSES" by Georgia Torrey Drennan. Unf., that is unavailable in printed form,
but you can maybe still find it to download on GOOGLE.
Or it is available on a CD, from the Heritage Rose Foundation.
Ellwanger's "THE ROSE" and Shepherd's "HISTORY OF THE ROSE"
are still worthwhile.
For California gardeners, I highly recommend Padilla's "SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA GARDENS," also
"REDWOODS AND ROSES," by Gilmer.

Then you plant things in your own garden, and if they don't work, you try something else, until you find out what
works, where YOU garden.
AND you go to places where you can see Old Roses.
Visit public gardens, prowl through old Cemeteries, go to rose shows, to see what Old Roses work in your area.
If you can do so, go to the Celebration Of Old Roses in El Cerrito.
Keep asking questions until you've driven everyone nuts.
You can't be an ARS "Consulting Rosarian" unless you're an ARS member (etc etc) but you CAN become someone who knows
how to grow Old Roses where you live.
That's what really counts.

Jeri

Jeri said what I was thinking. A lot of research in your area, seeking out older gardens, and trial and error in your own garden. Over 16 years of having my own garden, I've probably killed as many as I currently grow.

And that is really the only way you learn about rose culture, antique or not.

Thanks for the list of books; some I have, some I will get.

Jeri and Diane told me what I suspected, but just wanted someone to say. Thank you.

I might add, make sure the people giving you advice have some clue as to what roses you're growing, what those roses need, and what your conditions are.
When we started, all I knew about roses was what my grandmother taught me.
We joined a couple of ARS Societies, and learned from VERY eminent rosarians that everything my Nanny taught me was wrong.
Then, after a few years, we began to see that we were getting advice from people who grow different sorts of roses in different conditions than we have.
As it turned out, most of what my Nanny taught me was RIGHT.

Jeri

Some 30 years ago, I converted a huge old country vegetable garden into an old rose garden and selected 2 or 3 from "every" class. I went on to plant groups of rugosas-- newer varieties, and a lot of interesting shrub roses including some Griffith Bucks. I knew enough to place the mixed-up signs correctly in the antique portion of the Columbus Park of Roses, and I could identify lots of what I saw in places like New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and New Jersey. I probably secretly thought myself an expert-- in those days! THEN I moved to the South and guess what? There were LOTS of roses I never read about or heard about-- teas, Chinas, noisettes. So a whole new voyage of discovery is underway for me. Fun stuff-- esp. the upcoming car trips to go further south to visit gardens--South Carolina heah I come!

I don't ever want to move! I'm finally getting it figured out here. Don't think I have the strength to start over!

Jeri

Barbara, what gardens are you planning to visit? I gather Riverbanks and Monticello, from another thread ... ??

I'm a consulting rosarian, but not an expert on antique roses. However, if I grew 100 of them, spent more time at the antique rose garden, hung out with other rosarians here that had antique roses, read dozens of books and learned the differences between the classes, fragrances etc... I would call myself an expert. It's all a matter of how much time and effort I want to spend learning...

Find someone that grows old roses, loves old roses, and knows what they are talking about. An expert doesn't have to be a consulting rosarian, they simply have to love old roses enough to learn as much as they can about them...

Duchesse, I'm headed south. I'll stop at the wonderful municipal rose garden in Wilson, No.Caro. which has a small number of old roses but is more or less "on the way". I'll visit Roses Unlimited and Riverbanks (Columbia SC). I'd like to get to Ashdown and to Charleston, SC as well. I will go visit the Monticello noisettes again; many seemed to be struggling, making me wonder if they're a bit too cold up on that beautiful hill (they're z7). However their other OGR's were beautiful up there in CHarlottesville.

Time, experience, and reading are the keys to growing antique roses. You will find so many variations in rose success that one pill doesn't fit all.

Reading (books/forum) and posting on this forum while growing your own garden is an invaluable experience which I doubt a classroom course could surpass. If you post a problem, others will tell how they handled a similar problem giving you multiple options to try. With trial and error, you will find out what works in your garden.

Many of the wonderful people who nurtured me along the way are still posting. I still look forward to help and suggestions as we near the 08 growing season.

On the humorous but true side, feed your roses horse manure (not cow) and they will thank you. I doubt that tip is in the books.

Mad Gallica said ++BTW, unless things are very different in your district, the CR classes will not be particularly relevant for OGRs unless you like to spray. The point isn't nearly as much to gain information, as to be put in a position to spread information you have already acquired elsewhere.

Decobug, thank you for your comments. I wish that I knew someone who loved old roses, because I'd be living in their back yard. I've found some very nice people who grow roses but not much interest/knowledge in the ogr's. I am hoping that will there will be more interest developed over time, and I just would like to be in a position, 10 or 15 or however many years it will take for interest to develop in others or for the knowledge to penetrate my dense skull to be able to say something with some amount of integrity.

Now, the tack I've taken so far is simply to grow them and learn as much as I can here, through books, etc.

It seems that credentials are important before there is any kind of a platform to be able to speak. Master Gardener classes are open to me and the CR credentials are another possibility. Either or or both of those seem to be necessary.

But the only thing I really want to do is just learn on my own and ask ? if I find anyone that knows anything. I don't want the CR for its own sake. I'm not even particularly interested in being a MG.

Someone please straighten out my thinking!!

"feed your roses horse manure (not cow) and they will thank you. I doubt that tip is in the books."

*** "I have made many experiments, but I have come back to the plan which I adopted first all, and I believe it to be the best -- namely to give the Rose-trees a liberal stratum of farmyard manure in November, leaving it as a protection as well as a fertilizer . . . "

"Returning on a summer's afternoon from a parchial walk, I inferred from wheel-tracks on my carriage-drive that callers had been and gone. . . . I looked around and listened; no sight, no sound of humanity. I fetched the largest fire-shovel I could find, and was carrying it bountifully laden through an archway cut in a high hedge of yews, and toward a favourite tree of 'Charles Lefebvre,' when I suddenly confronted three ladies 'who had sent round the carriage, hearing that I shold soon be at home, and were admiring my beautiful roses . . . "

-- Rev. S. Reynolds Hole, "A BOOK ABOUT ROSES"
(A book everyone who has roses should possess)

Jeri

The suggestions of reading books, going to conferences, and visiting gardens are all excellent. So are growing some of the roses for yourself and observing. To these I would add reading this forum regularly. Some of the very learned posters of the early days have moved on, some spiked, and others do not post as frequently as they once did, but other experienced and knowledgeable gardeners have since joined. They don't always agree. I find you can even learn things from their disagreements.

Rosefolly

I'm not sure what it is you are asking. You don't have to be a CR or a MG to be very informed and knowledgeable about OGRs.

The only "credentials" that any of us have is experience. And if there is no one around, then YOU should share YOUR knowledge with others, here on the forums and locally. Volunteer to give a talk about OGRs at your local rose society or to a garden club. Even if it is just the basics. Then, perhaps, you will be the one who helps to grow interest in OGR growing in your community.

You have a wealth of information in Phillip Oliver, who lives in Florence, is librarian at UNA and OGR lover, who has a beautiful garden and great reader of books regarding pass-along plants and OGR. He is nearby, contact him. He does a great tour of his garden and you will come home wanting to redo the whole garden once you have seen his and heard his talking points. :)

I consider myself just a novice at this OGR growing - and esp. when I come to this forum. There is so much knowledge here, so much to read and learn. (And thank you Jeri for a few more book titles to add to my "library.") I have had some OGR's for years, but more recently have been "converting" more and more of my focus (and gardens) to roses of the past. And yet, there are very, very few people I have run into here in my corner of the world who share my enthusiasm. My 'local' rose society (the only one in the whole northern tip of the mitt and I travel 70 miles one way for meetings) is made up of a group of very nice folks whose focus is on growing (not showing) roses...but all the same theirs are modern roses. They have hornswaggled me into giving a talk about OGR's for one of this year's meeting topics since they consider me to be an "expert" - silly people! I haven't begun to construct my plan for the meeting yet, but it is my mission to convey the intrigue of the history, the beauty and the scent, and the ease of growing of these wonderful albas, gallicas, rugosas, centifolias, bourbons and more....much of which I have learned from you all, bless your hearts! So, just like Diane said, if there is no one else around, you share your own knowledge.
But frankly, I don't think I will ever feel my antique rose education is complete and that's one of the things I love about these roses - there is always so much more to learn!
Anne

Ann, how silly you are. You are one of the most learned on this forum. I always love your posts. They are so full of wisdom, and your mind is like a steel trap when it comes to roses. Very wise, intuitive and hungry for knowledge and yet possess more than most.

Anne, I wish I could hear your rose talk.

Here's a quote I like, just as a way of thanking you all for adding to the conversation:

"The grand way to learn, in gardening as in all things else, is to wish to learn, and to be determined to find out, not to think that any person can wave a wand and give the power and knowledge."
Miss Gertrude Jekyll, in "Wood and Garden"

Quoted from Old Roses by Ethelyn Keays (thanks for the book recommendation, Jeri!)

Thank you.